North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor

[TEPaul]

Wayne Morrison and I have been involved with at least three clubs that've had their architectural attribution wrong and none of them reacted in a "shoot the messenger" manner. But that may've been a matter of the fact that the evidence shown them was evidence they had not previously been aware of and it was also extremely conclusive.

[Mark Hissey]

There were a few details on this piece that had to be left out due to space issues.

The archives at the New York Historical Society are wonderful. I was familiar with them having used them for my research on Sebonack. The Harmonie Club records were a real treasure. You can see the club gradually change with the times from the club minutes. They were all very formal and until the 1890's were all hand written in German. The formality of everything was quite astounding.

The first record of golf at all comes from arounf 1910 when the younger members of the club request the construction of "golf courts" at the clubhouse in Manhattan.

The descriptions of how outdoor activity is desireable among the younger generation is also interesting to see and then you see the push to buy a clubhouse to cater for this new activity with golf being the primary activity.

The due dilligence on the purchase of Glenwood was rather amusing. They hired a local expert who said the renovation could be completed for $1500. He didn't last long, and then a certain Mr. Raynor appeared on the scene.

I don't have my notes here presently but feel free to ask me any questions that you may have and I will answer them if I can.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

Once again, I sort of disagree with your analysis, based on what I have seen on this thread.

We know Raynor started his business in 1915, with the active help and cooperation of CBM, from George Bahto.  Whether or not his experience with CBM was construction or design or both is kind of immaterial, isn't it?  The historical records show that Raynor started his business and that North Shore hired him to design.  It also appears that they hired White to construct (the word superintend the new course, if undertaken are used) which specifically links him to construction.  But you pick out a fluff piece (with the active input....) and make THAT the be all end all of the key piece, rather than the actual contracts, job descriptions, fees, etc.

I have no doubt that White had some design input, as any superintendent would, and as any construction superintendent would. I have no doubt he was hired by NS because of his past experience in those endeavors, which included some knowledge of design, as well as turf and construction.  You are correct that they are all mixed together to a degree in those days.

But, I also have no doubt that Raynor was hired to design the course and should be credited as such,  probalby in no small part to the CBM connection, which was quite strong.

I have a hard time thinking it could be interpreted any other way.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Mark,

Thanks for coming into this discussion.

I found the minutes of NS to be a treasure,not only for the purpose of my visit but for the sociological study of the German-Jewish community in NY at the time. Also, the in fighting at Harmonie over NS, the various resignations due to WW1 and other reasons, the failure to mention NS by name in the 100 year history of Harmonie.

Wouldn't you like to see Raynor's letter to NS as referenced in the minutes?

Has the Harmonie Club done a search for Raynor's "diagram?"

[Phil_the_Author]

Mark,

I, too, am glad to see you contributing on this!

[Tom MacWood]

"On March 13, 1915, at the Club’s Annual meeting, it was reported that the original course was under 5000 yards and that Raynor was hired, with the active and intelligent cooperation of White, and have laid out a course, the nature of which can be seen on the diagram in the office of the Harmonie Club. This course will measure about 6400 yards, will take 15 acres of woodland and take full advantage of the vantages offered by the rolling ground, which we own."


Mark
I'm interested in any insight you might have on this entry from 3/13/1915. Do you read this as Raynor and White collaborating on the design? Also is there any record of the diagram metioned above?

You said they were very thorough with their due diligence prior to purchasing Glenwood, were they as thorough in choosing a greenkeeper and golf architect?

Have you looked at the records from 1916 to 1921?

[Jerry Kluger]

Could someone who has visited NS please give us an idea of how they believe it compares to when the Raynor design/construction was completed. The WSJ article indicates that Tom Doak will be doing some restoration work and how much work do you believe will involve actually rebuilding the holes back to the original design versus restoring them and by that I mean green sizes, bunker sizes and shapes, fairway widths, etc.  thanks

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Jerry

See Tom Doak's post #158 above.

[Bradley Anderson]

There is every indication that Robert White built the greens at NS according to a specific method that he specified. But beyond that I haven't read anything here that warrents him getting design or co-design credit.

[Tom MacWood]

"On March 13, 1915, at the Club’s Annual meeting, it was reported that the original course was under 5000 yards and that Raynor was hired, with the active and intelligent cooperation of White, and have laid out a course, the nature of which can be seen on the diagram in the office of the Harmonie Club. This course will measure about 6400 yards, will take 15 acres of woodland and take full advantage of the vantages offered by the rolling ground, which we own."

Bradley
I'll ask you the same question. Do you read this as Raynor and White collaborating on the design?

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

Since you like quoting the club records and asking a loaded question, here's one for you:

"On January 26, 1915, the Club approved plans by Raynor for a new golf course with $37,500.00 to be expended under supervision of the Greens Committee, subject to the approval of the President. Raynor was to be paid a fee of $1800.00 for carrying out this work."

Do you read this as Raynor being the SOLE named architect and designer of the new golf course?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Phil,

I would like to see his answer, too along with a response to my query.  With all due respect, and not really trying to be disrespectful, but I thought of Tmac the other day when playing tug of war with my dog....just like the dog, Tmac grabs on to that thing and just keeps pulling and pulling and pulling and won't let go!

As I said before, I just can't understand in this case, how one sentence can be deemed to be the overriding piece of evidence in his mind, when so many other things contradict that sentence, or at least seem to override it, at least in my mind.  Now, I agree that White had some influence and certainly wanted some influence, given he went on to a design career himself.  And during construction he probably through a few ideas in himself, like any foreman to this day would.

And, it would be interesting to discover some old correspondance, if it exists, between White and Raynor that might detail what construction issues existed, and how both worked together to solve them, whatever they might be.

But, it just doesn't seem to me that White should be given credit, based on one sentence, and based on generally accepted practice either then or now, even as we all seek to expand the overall knowledge of how these courses got built.  If those standards need to change, then there is a bigger issue than the credit of how NS got designed.  But, I am not sure there is an issue here or elsewhere.  Someone has always gotten the primary credit, even with input from others and this appears to be no different than normal - the guy who has a signed design contract and who apparently drew the plan that the club approved (yes, another source of "input") gets the credit.

And, as long as we are parsing phrases, please note that your phrase puts the green committee in charge and White is not mentioned. Now, I presume no one on the committee ever planned to get their hands dirty and they hired White to do that.  But it also suggests that their input continued to get put into the golf course, at least in their minds.  As Tom Doak pointed out, even with a gca drawing the plans and doing the design, at the end of the day, they can order it built upside down, backwards, and purple, if they so desire.

Now, if White had a good relationship with them, he might have bent their ear to get certain ideas in.  And he probably did.  But again, there seems little doubt that Raynor was the gca of record and most of this input seems to have been normal type stuff.

[Mike Cirba]

Jeff,

As long as he doesn't start humping your leg, I think some of this sometimes contentious debate is healthy.   

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

Thanks for the humor and I do agree.  As I said, TMac has uncovered some great stuff, and I have no problem with historians looking deeper for what Paul Harvey called the rest of the story. Its a great service.

I happen to disagree with his analysis on this particular issue, until giiven more evidence, rather than rereading the same old snippets and trying to convince us that one is more important than the other.

[Mark Hissey]

Mark,

Thanks for coming into this discussion.

I found the minutes of NS to be a treasure,not only for the purpose of my visit but for the sociological study of the German-Jewish community in NY at the time. Also, the in fighting at Harmonie over NS, the various resignations due to WW1 and other reasons, the failure to mention NS by name in the 100 year history of Harmonie.

Wouldn't you like to see Raynor's letter to NS as referenced in the minutes?

Has the Harmonie Club done a search for Raynor's "diagram?"

Dear Steve:

I would absolutely love to see Raynor's letter. I think it would be incredibly enlightening and I'm confident that it would provide much needed clarity to the role played by White as well as the work of Mr. Macdonald. I haven't given up hope on that letter. They were quite good about keeping their records as is witnessed by that rather large report filed on Glenwood in the Harmonie Club's minutes. It will be like looking for a needle in a haystack, but I'm not writing it off yet.

Reading the minutes, month after month, year after year, really helps you get a feel for what was going on in the club and you can well see how the relationship between the clubs broke.

The Harmonie Club hasn't been incredibly cooperative to be honest. But I think there is a sound reason for it. They apparently have a room full of old documents they they a reluctant to go through because of the magnitude of the job. I;m presently working on bringing them around on that.

For you other researchers, there is a young golf fanatic who works in the archive at the New York Historical Society named Ted. He was incredibly helpful and enthusiastic.

[Mark Hissey]

"On March 13, 1915, at the Club’s Annual meeting, it was reported that the original course was under 5000 yards and that Raynor was hired, with the active and intelligent cooperation of White, and have laid out a course, the nature of which can be seen on the diagram in the office of the Harmonie Club. This course will measure about 6400 yards, will take 15 acres of woodland and take full advantage of the vantages offered by the rolling ground, which we own."


Mark
I'm interested in any insight you might have on this entry from 3/13/1915. Do you read this as Raynor and White collaborating on the design? Also is there any record of the diagram metioned above?

You said they were very thorough with their due diligence prior to purchasing Glenwood, were they as thorough in choosing a greenkeeper and golf architect?

Have you looked at the records from 1916 to 1921?

I think the punctuation amd wording is important in that statement. Raynor was hired with the cooperation of White. Of course he spoke to White and bounced ideas off him. Raynor would have been a fool not to solicit his ideas. But clearly, Raynor was hired amd laid out a course. There is a record which was made on September 24th, 1918. There is a rather terse statement which says that the club gave the Greens Committee empowerment to use their discretion in regard to the termination of the services of Robert White.

There seems to have been no love lost for him at this point and I don't expect that they would be so short with a co-designer of the course.

Raynor seems to have morphed from being their consultant to being their designer. On October 5th 1914 he was paid $400 to act as their advisor, and less than three months later he was approved for providing the plan for the new course.

The statement of November 24th 1914 is also very telling. White is hited for $1,200 per annum to act as the Golf Professional but also to superintend the building of the new course. He is never mentioned as being hired to design it. Raynor was.

I did go through all of the records until 1925 in the hope that I could find a reference to Tillinghast. George Bahto's book refers to raynor working at North Shore in 1923-24. I was hoping for that to be a reversal in roles actually as I knew at this point that Raynor had built the course from 1915-1916. But I never found that Tillinghast was on the course in 1923-24 either.

[Bradley Anderson]

"On March 13, 1915, at the Club’s Annual meeting, it was reported that the original course was under 5000 yards and that Raynor was hired, with the active and intelligent cooperation of White, and have laid out a course, the nature of which can be seen on the diagram in the office of the Harmonie Club. This course will measure about 6400 yards, will take 15 acres of woodland and take full advantage of the vantages offered by the rolling ground, which we own."

Bradley
I'll ask you the same question. Do you read this as Raynor and White collaborating on the design?

When interpreted in the light of other statements from those minutes, one has to read "active and intelligent cooperation" to mean that the greenkeeper is going to compliment the architects intent.

[Tom MacWood]

When interpreted in the light of other statements from those minutes, one has to read "active and intelligent cooperation" to mean that the greenkeeper is going to compliment the architects intent.

White is going to complement the architects intent? So you read this statement as a prediction into the future. They are predicting White will provide active and intelligent cooperation some time down the road, but he did not provide it when they (or Raynor) laid out the course. Interesting reading.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

Since you like quoting the club records and asking a loaded question, here's one for you:

"On January 26, 1915, the Club approved plans by Raynor for a new golf course with $37,500.00 to be expended under supervision of the Greens Committee, subject to the approval of the President. Raynor was to be paid a fee of $1800.00 for carrying out this work."

Do you read this as Raynor being the SOLE named architect and designer of the new golf course?

If I was to read that statement without any knowledge of other facts and other statements I'd say Raynor was hired in January to provide the plan for the redesign AND to supervise the redesign construction,....subject to the approval of the President. But thankfully we have more than just this statement.

[Tom MacWood]

Mark
You said White was never mentioned as being hired to design the course, but he was mentioned (at least twice) as actively involved in the design was he not? You cannot just ignore that can you?

"On March 13, 1915, at the Club’s Annual meeting, it was reported that the original course was under 5000 yards and that Raynor was hired, with the active and intelligent cooperation of White, and have laid out a course, the nature of which can be seen on the diagram in the office of the Harmonie Club. This course will measure about 6400 yards, will take 15 acres of woodland and take full advantage of the vantages offered by the rolling ground, which we own."

"He said the results are the product of the deep thought of Robert White, our greens expert, Seth Raynor, the leading golf architect in the United States and Charles B. Macdonald, the recognized authority among amateurs on golf course construction and the well considered work of our Greens Committee."  

You said the punctuation and wording are important, but then never addressed the fact the statement is third person plural, as in Raynor and White have laid out the course.

In the second quote its worth noting White is mentioned before either Raynor or Macdonald. Why do you think that was the case?

I wouldn't read too much into White being dismissed, there are numerous cases in history where high profile pro/greenkeepers or high profile golf architects are either fired or quit. Why was White terminated?

How did the club come to hire White and Raynor, who else did they consider?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Down boy, down boy!

Now you are insisting that word order is more important factor than actual firings, contracts, etc.  From where I stand, that bone is getting pretty raw.

Only one question though, how many more times are you going to trot out that quote and try to force it down our throats?  Perhaps underlined, bold, italics and color will convince us to change our minds?

But, knock yourself out.

[TEPaul]

There's been some pretty interesting analyses today on the North Shore GC project in that time-span (1914-15) when Raynor was hired to design the course and White was hired to superintend and act as the construction foreman.

I think we can find a number of analogies to this kind of collaboration in this era----the last decade of the 19th century, the first decade of the 20th century and into the teens.

There seems no question at all that Robert White was hired by North Shore as their greenskeeper/construction foreman and perhaps their golf professional as well. I think White had fulfilled positions like this at other clubs in the past---perhaps Myopia, Ravisloe etc. It seems White was hired per annum, which would make complete sense in those functions. Of course Raynor was paid a fee for his design of the course and nothing more. Raynor was not put on the club's payroll (a per annum payment).

That makes sense as Raynor never was anything other than a professional engineer for the NGLA project, and apparently the engineer for Macdonald's Piping Rock (1911-13), the Lido (1914) for which he was paid a fee and not put on the club's per annum payroll. And on projects where Macdonald was not the architect of record Raynor worked on his own as the architect of record for a design fee. I know of no instance in Raynor's entire career where he was put on a club's payroll per annum as North Shore's administrative records mentioned Robert White was as their greenskeeper/construction foreman and perhaps golf professional.

In a sense, White's function at North Shore was probably no different than the function of Fred Pickering at Merion East or George Govan at Pine Valley.

Even if Pickering had close collaboration with the Wilson committee in the construction of Merion East (acting as their construction foreman/greenskeeper in the beginning) and Govan acted as Crump's construction foreman/pro/clubmaker/greenskeeper at Pine Valley I doubt there is any particularly good reason to attribute co-design credit to either of them as there wouldn't be either in the case of  Raynor (Macdonald?) with White at North Shore.

To do that with that arrangement probably would create a significantly inappropriate historical precedent. Of course, I think most of us probably understand, at this point, that a golf architecture analyst with as poor an analytical track-record as Tom MacWood has shown thus far would probably not understand that particularly well.

And by a poor analytical track record I'm referring to a man who, despite massive historical documentary evidence to the contrary, has continuously promoted the likes of Willie Campbell as the architect of Myopia, HH Barker as the architect of Merion East and now Robert White as the architect of North Shore GC. 

[Tom MacWood]

Was Pickering a professional/greenkeeper? No. Pickering's sport was cricket. He became an expert in turf while looking after the cricket grounds in Boston, he turned that expertise into a successful career in greenkeeping and course construction.

Was Pickering ever hired to design a golf course? No. Just prior to being hired by North Shore White was hired to design another Long Island golf course.  And White was more than the run of the mill professional, he was elected the first president of PGA of American in 1916, and was a founder of the American Society of GC Architects. White was also born at St. Andrews, the home of golf.

You are comparing apples and oranges.

[TEPaul]

"Was Pickering a professional/greenkeeper? Was Pickering ever hired to design a golf course? Just prior to being hired by North Shore White was hired to design another Long Island golf course? You are comparing apples and oranges."





No, I'm not comparing apples and oranges in the case of North Shore GC even though an architectural analyst as poor as you are may think that might be a relevent point to make.

It makes no difference if Frederick Pickering never designed a golf course or was never hired to design a golf course. The only thing that makes any difference in this case is what Robert White was hired by North Shore to do and what Seth Raynor was hired by North Shore to do. In the case of North Shore the NS administrative record shows that White was hired to do the same two things Pickering was hired by Merion to do and Govan was hired by Pine Valley to do and that was to act as their greenskeeper/construction foreman even if White may've also acted as NS's pro as did Govan with PV. Pickering was never Merion's pro.

[TEPaul]

see next post!