North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
Do you think it is fair and accurate to compare Robert White with Govan and Pickering, two dedicated construction men? I don't believe either man designed a golf course during their entire lifetimes. Were you aware White became a fairly accomplished golf architect in his own right (unlike Govan and Pickering)? He was one of the founders of the ASGCA. What was White and Raynor's professional design experience in 1915?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I think that Mr. Zucker's words(alongwith Tom Doak's and perhaps George Bahto's) will count more than an isolated campaign to attribute design attribution to someone who was hired to be the superintendent and later the golf pro at North Shore. Many supeintendents in today's world are hired by the owner to supervise construction and grow in. No doubt they may make some design comments while work is being performed but to give them design attribution is a stretch even if their later career is that of a golf course architect. One example of this is Billy Fuller who was the superintendent at AGNC and is now a golf course architect.

[Tom MacWood]

"On March 13, 1915, at the Club’s Annual meeting, it was reported that the original course was under 5000 yards and that Raynor was hired, with the active and intelligent cooperation of White, and have laid out a course, the nature of which can be seen on the diagram in the office of the Harmonie Club. This course will measure about 6400 yards, will take 15 acres of woodland and take full advantage of the vantages offered by the rolling ground, which we own."

"He said the results are the product of the deep thought of Robert White, our greens expert, Seth Raynor, the leading golf architect in the United States and Charles B. Macdonald, the recognized authority among amateurs on golf course construction and the well considered work of our Greens Committee."

Steve
Based on these excerpts from your timeline it would appear White's involvement was a little more than just a superintendent. Weren't you the same guy at the beginning of this tread who was arguing the Tilly deserved the credit? In your opinion should Mr. Zucker have the ultimate say as to who history says were the designers of North Shore?


I'll ask you the same question, what were White and Raynor's respective design experiences in 1915?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Of course I,amomg others, thought that Tillie was involved at NS. Who would have thought that Quirin relied on erroneous oral history in his book?

Yes, Mr. Zucker,the new owner,and his team-Tom Doak, Mark Hissey and perhaps George Bahto- should make this determination.

Do you want to include the Greens Committee as well?

See my reply #136 above.

Finis.

[TEPaul]

"TEP
Do you think it is fair and accurate to compare Robert White with Govan and Pickering, two dedicated construction men? I don't believe either man designed a golf course during their entire lifetimes. Were you aware White became a fairly accomplished golf architect in his own right (unlike Govan and Pickering)? He was one of the founders of the ASGCA. What was White and Raynor's professional design experience in 1915?"


Fair and accurate? 

I see; is that what your plaintive argument to have Robert White named by North Shore GC as a co-designer or co-architect with Raynor has come to? I guess it has come to that.

I don't think it's a matter or question of being fair or unfair to White; with the North Shore GC's architectural work at this particular time it's only a matter of figuring out and answering accurately what he was hired to do and asked to do by the North Shore GC at that particular time, and what he actually did do at that particular time. It looks to me like he was hired and asked to be the construction foreman and greenskeeper for the design that Raynor produced. And I do realize White stayed on at NS for a few years as the club's greenskeeper and worked on the course and its architecture after it opened for play.

Was I aware White was an accomplished architect later and had perhaps even done a bit of architectural work on his own before NS? Did I know about his other accomplishments during his career, some of which you mentioned?

Sure I did. Believe it or not MacWood I've probably known a lot more about White and for some years than you ever have. I think it is just hilarious that you seem to think and have apparently always thought if someone does not POST ON THIS WEBSITE historical documentation and such from newspapers, magazines of private club historical material for some strange reason they can't have possibly had it and its information or been well aware of it and its information and like for years. That is a pretty bizarre mentality on your part and pretty much tells me you really must have some kind of mental block when it comes to what we do and discuss and know on here. Either that or it's just the kind of thing you almost automatically say because you're apparently so competitive with some of us to show others on here that you know something about this entire subject of golf course architecture! 

Matter of fact, after playing in I think a PA State Amateurs at Longue Vue some many years ago that golf course became one of my favorites or most certianly a few of it's holes did. One of them even gave me the idea of a hole concept I put on this site about a decade ago known as "The Play-Back Hole." And White was at Myopia for a year or two in the late 1890s a club and course I apparently know a helluva lot more about and about it's architectural history than you ever will.

PS:
Talk about ironical and hilarious, on a post in the last 24 hours you told me to get off my lazy ass instead of asking others to hand me everything on a silver platter. It seems to me it is you who only sits in front of his computer in Ivory Tower, Ohio or wherever you live and never gets off his ass and goes anywhere to study and analyze it first-hand. At least you sure never have been to some of these clubs and courses you have such strong opinions about understanding the details of their histories.

At least, unlike you, I actually get in cars and trains and planes and go to those places in person I have a real interest in.

[Tom MacWood]

TEP/Steve
One more time...what were Raynor & White's respective design experiences/resumes in 1915? What had they done up until that point?

TEP
Based upon what has been produced I think it is unclear who redesigned the course, their are a number of possibilities. The one thing we do know for sure, the original course was designed by Emmet.

[Tom MacWood]

Yes, Mr. Zucker,the new owner,and his team-Tom Doak, Mark Hissey and perhaps George Bahto- should make this determination.

Why? Do you also believe goverments should be the final say in what is the official history of their respective countries?

[TEPaul]

“TEP/Steve
One more time...what were Raynor & White's respective design experiences/resumes in 1915? What had they done up until that point?”


Tom MacWood:

In response to your constant question above I think it would be more than appropriate to answer you with one of your own remarks to me on another thread. Here it is:



"Well then get off your lazy ass and look them up. You've talking about this subject for years, its about time you do something yourself rather than relying on others to hand you the info on a silver platter.”

[Tom MacWood]

TE
Thank you for your non-response. I knew when I asked the question it would go one of two ways. You would know what was their respective experience levels in 1915, and that information would add insight into the club's decision process, or you would refuse because you have no freek'n idea, reinforcing the growing consensus that you know nothing, which goes back to my comment regarding your inability to get off your rear. Win-win.

[TEPaul]

I know perfectly well what both Raynor's and White's respective design experiences were in 1915. I know them anyway but I should  remind you they are also on this thread leading me to truly wonder why in the world you keep asking any of us questions like this over and over and over again? It's a waste of time, MacWood, and I think pretty near everyone realizes why you keep doing it. 

[George_Bahto]

The key greens at North Shore are Seth Raynor greens not Robert White greens - the Double Plateau, the other plateau across the cartpath (17) - the Road hole green is about as good as it gets.

They are dramatic and very indicative of dramatic greens Raynor usually built when he first went out on his own.      



Dramatic greens and strategic bunkering in his first group of courses.
                     
* see original plans for Westhampton
* see original plans for CC of Fairfield
* see original plans for Greenwich and


the early North Shore aerial,


as time passed Raynor began to “lessen” the drama and severity of his design a bit - probably got tied of getting overruled by clubs and their members

His early designs were very cool..

[TEPaul]

"Dramatic greens and strategic bunkering in his first group of courses.
                    
* see original plans for Westhampton"



GeorgieB:

I believe I recall some time ago our GOLFCLUBATLAS.com resident club architectural history questioner from Ivory Tower, Ohio mentioned that some article indicated that HH Barker was the architect for Westhampton and Raynor basically constructed the course to Barker's design plan.

What do you make of that?

If you'd prefer your response to that question simply be "Nothing" I do understand.

[Tom MacWood]

The key greens at North Shore are Seth Raynor greens not Robert White greens - the Double Plateau, the other plateau across the cartpath (17) - the Road hole green is about as good as it gets.

They are dramatic and very indicative of dramatic greens Raynor usually built when he first went out on his own.      



Dramatic greens and strategic bunkering in his first group of courses.
                     
* see original plans for Westhampton
* see original plans for CC of Fairfield
* see original plans for Greenwich and


the early North Shore aerial,


as time passed Raynor began to “lessen” the drama and severity of his design a bit - probably got tied of getting overruled by clubs and their members

His early designs were very cool..

George
How do you know Double Plateau green is not Emmet's from the original 18 holes?

[Tom MacWood]

Here are couple of old articles on Westhampton (2/1915) and Greenwich (4/9/1916).

[George_Bahto]

TomMac:  How do you know Double Plateau green is not Emmet's from the original 18 holes?

I'e never seenan Emmet DP

TEP: I believe the plans for W'Hampton - which I copied - were Raynor plans - I'll check

[TEPaul]

"TEP: I believe the plans for W'Hampton - which I copied - were Raynor plans - I'll check."


GeorgieB:

Did you copy the Westhampton plans off of something that was in Westhampton's possession? If so and if they happend to be signed by Barker and not Raynor would that then make North Shore Raynor's first solo design if he did a design plan for them in 1914. By the way, obviously you've never heretofore seen a design plan for North Shore by Raynor, right?

[Tom MacWood]

The National has a Double Plateau...wasn't Emmet involved in the design of that course? If memory serves me Emmet wrote an article about Glenwood in which he said the NGLA had been an influence.  

[George_Bahto]

"did you copy the Westhampton plans off of something that was in Westhampton's possession?

yes, I sat in the clubhouse dining room, off season, and physically traced both the Westhamton Beach plans and the Westhampton Oneck plans that were in the possession of super, Mike Rewinski.

If so and if they happened to be signed by Barker and not Raynor would that then make North Shore Raynor's first solo design if he did a design plan for them in 1914.  ..... Raynor signed up for 4 courses in 1915 ....... you tell me which was the first??



By the way, obviously you've never heretofore seen a design plan for North Shore by Raynor, right

is there one in existence?

[Tom MacWood]

Which four courses did he sign up for?

[George_Bahto]

out on his own:  1914   Westhampton - CC of Fairfield - Greenwich CC - now north shore surfaces, Tom

[George_Bahto]

TomMac: you know Mountain Lake was a slow starter and Raynor had a lot of trouble getting Fred Ruth to agree on green models he had sent for approval.

I really think the Mountain Lake course is dated 1915 but I have a blurb that says that by the summer of 1915 the green models began arriving in Florida ....... so surely the beginnings were a number of months earlier

Mountain Lake club was founded in 1916 and it wasn't until 1919 (1st 9)- 1920 thru 1921 (2nd 9)

1915 saw Blind Brook, Gardiner's Bay, Shoreacres, Bellport

[TEPaul]

"I really think the Mountain Lake course is dated 1915 but I have a blurb that says that by the summer of 1915 the green models began arriving in Florida ....... so surely the beginnings were a number of months earlier

Mountain Lake club was founded in 1916 and it wasn't until 1919 (1st 9)- 1920 thru 1921 (2nd 9)"



George:

Before they did the restoration I remember some Mountain Lake plans down there that I think had 1915 on them. I don't remember if it was the golf course or something else, but I do remember 1915.

[Tom MacWood]

George
Are you 100% sure on that Raynor timeline?

Here is blurb from the NY Times in April 1916 that shows CBM being engaged at Greenwich. Here is another article from early 1916 on Blind Brook, and it doesn't appear they had yet to hire an architect. I also thought they eventually hired CBM, and something happened along the way and George Low ended up finishing the golf course. There seems to be some CBM involvement at North Shore as well. Westhampton is a Barker design. Raynor was announced as the architect of Shoreacres in early 1917 (Chicago Tribune and American Golfer), not 1915.

[Tom MacWood]

Here is a copy of the map of Westhampton and link to the course today. There are some major differences in the bunkering scheme, including some Garden City-esque features in the course today. I'm wondering if Raynor was called back at some point to redesign the course (there is no date on my map), but for whatever reason his plan was never fully executed.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=westhampton&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=48.909425,72.070313&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Westhampton,+Suffolk,+New+York&ll=40.810431,-72.656708&spn=0.022997,0.035191&t=k&z=15

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Even though I said I was finished on this thread,I must refresh Tom Macwood's recollection concerning White's possible design involvement at North Shore:

1. White himself wrote the 1919 article in which he defined his role as the turf expert who was responsible for the greens without any mention of design work whatsoever.

2. According to Tillinghast's writings, White came to North Shore after working at Shawnee where he was the Superintendent whose primary responsibility was the grow in of the turf for the newly re-designed and expanded course.

Please refer to my reply #136 above.