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Niall Hay

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OSU Golf Club tops rankings
« on: November 25, 2009, 11:57:10 AM »
The Ohio State Golf Club has been voted No. 1 among college courses in a poll by GolfChannel.com.

The Scarlet and Gray courses, which opened in 1938 were designed by architect Alister McKenzie, who also designed Augusta National, site of the Masters. Jack Nicklaus then renovated the courses in 2005.

Scarlet plays to par 71 and is 7,455 yards from the men's championship tees. Gray is a par 70 that plays 6,200 yards.

A list of the top 10 courses:

1. The Ohio State University Golf Club
2. Oklahoma State (Karsten Creek)
3. Stanford Golf Course
4. Purdue (Birck Boilermaker Golf Complex)
5. Duke University Golf Club
6. The Course at Yale
7. North Carolina (Finley)
8. University of Texas Golf Club
9. Wisconsin (University Ridge)
10. University of Georgia Golf Course

Scarlet is a great golf course....

Jud_T

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Re: OSU Golf Club tops rankings
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2009, 12:00:06 PM »
Yale 6th? where's the Warren Course?  :-[
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Richard Choi

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Re: OSU Golf Club tops rankings
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2009, 12:08:30 PM »
I believe the list would look quite different if you replace Golf Channel voters with the folks from this site...

Seriously, Yale at 6th? Let's get serious.

Niall Hay

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Re: OSU Golf Club tops rankings
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2009, 12:15:00 PM »
Well then how would it look and where would Scarlet rank?

Niall Hay

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Re: OSU Golf Club tops rankings
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2009, 12:16:40 PM »
The Ohio State Golf Club has been voted No. 1 among college courses in a poll by GolfChannel.com.

The Scarlet and Gray courses, which opened in 1938 were designed by architect Alister McKenzie, who also designed Augusta National, site of the Masters. Jack Nicklaus then renovated the courses in 2005.

Scarlet plays to par 71 and is 7,455 yards from the men's championship tees. Gray is a par 70 that plays 6,200 yards.

A list of the top 10 courses:

1. The Ohio State University Golf Club
2. Oklahoma State (Karsten Creek)
3. Stanford Golf Course
4. Purdue (Birck Boilermaker Golf Complex)
5. Duke University Golf Club
6. The Course at Yale
7. North Carolina (Finley)
8. University of Texas Golf Club
9. Wisconsin (University Ridge)
10. University of Georgia Golf Course

Scarlet is a great golf course....

Come on Brian Laurent......

Lou_Duran

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Re: OSU Golf Club tops rankings
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2009, 12:19:29 PM »
Richard,

Sometimes the self-annointed smart guys just ain't so smart.

I was under the impression that the survey was of college golf coaches and not "Golf Channel voters".  Certanily these subject experts can't hold a candle to our biased rank amateurs!   ;)

BTW, I've played "old" Scarlet and the other OSU (Karsten Creek), and thought both were clearly superior to Yale. 

« Last Edit: November 25, 2009, 12:22:57 PM by Lou_Duran »

Richard Choi

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Re: OSU Golf Club tops rankings
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2009, 12:24:33 PM »
If it is college golf coaches, the list makes even more sense as it is probably how PGA Tour players would rank as well.

And we all agree with how those guys rank courses...

How much McKenzie is even left on the OSU course? I thought Nicklaus pretty much gutted that place. Which would also explain why it is ranked so high with former high level players.

Sean_A

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Re: OSU Golf Club tops rankings
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2009, 12:25:07 PM »
Any list with Duke #5 either has little to offer or can't be taken seriously.

Ciao
« Last Edit: November 25, 2009, 12:32:13 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

David Stamm

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Re: OSU Golf Club tops rankings
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2009, 12:28:38 PM »
I haven't played any of these, but I know Spaulding has played Stanford and Yale. And as much as he has a soft spot for Stanford, I feel pretty confident he'd place Yale ahead of Stanford. Hopefully he'll chime in. I think John Kirk has played at least a portion of these and I'd be interested in take as well.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

jonathan_becker

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Re: OSU Golf Club tops rankings
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2009, 12:48:04 PM »
The only course on this list that I've played is OSU Scarlet.  Now, I'm in no position to say that it's #1, but imo the renovations made the course better.  My only experience with the "old scarlet" was in 1997 at the Ohio HS state tourney and it was in terrible shape during that time.  The greens were in rough shape, there were dandelions and weeds all over the course, and the bunkers had rocks and such throughout. As a 17 year old, I was greatly disappointed.

I have played the "new scarlet" as recently as this past August and it was much better.  The greens were exceptionally quick, all new bunkers (they're all very deep and penal and it's hard to spin the ball out of them), no weeds and dandelions, and now it's super long from the back.  I will play it again because it's a great but fair challenge.

I can see the skeleton of the old scarlet, but it seems like a brand new Nicklaus course to me.

Niall Hay

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Re: OSU Golf Club tops rankings
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2009, 12:56:52 PM »
The only course on this list that I've played is OSU Scarlet.  Now, I'm in no position to say that it's #1, but imo the renovations made the course better.  My only experience with the "old scarlet" was in 1997 at the Ohio HS state tourney and it was in terrible shape during that time.  The greens were in rough shape, there were dandelions and weeds all over the course, and the bunkers had rocks and such throughout. As a 17 year old, I was greatly disappointed.

I have played the "new scarlet" as recently as this past August and it was much better.  The greens were exceptionally quick, all new bunkers (they're all very deep and penal and it's hard to spin the ball out of them), no weeds and dandelions, and now it's super long from the back.  I will play it again because it's a great but fair challenge.

I can see the skeleton of the old scarlet, but it seems like a brand new Nicklaus course to me.

The only hole that is 100% changed is # 4 if I can recall....the rest were tweaks and some bunkering. Jack had influence, but the Good Dr. is still there in spirit and soul. The routing and general feel are the same (except 4)...brutally difficult, long and challenging, yet fair. It is a true test of golf and your overall game.

Does anyone have any good before and after pictures other than the ones on their website?

Matt_Ward

Re: OSU Golf Club tops rankings
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2009, 01:47:23 PM »
Golf Channel needs to re-dial its listing.

While I am a fan of Yale I want to highlight just how good Karsten Creek is. Gets little attention from this site because of access-related issues. Has the goods not only on a college listing but for even higher acclaim.

I'm also amazed that The Rawls Course at Texas Tech didn't get a sniff.

Back to the drawing board indeed.


Kyle Harris

Re: OSU Golf Club tops rankings
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2009, 01:51:22 PM »
The only course on this list that I've played is OSU Scarlet.  Now, I'm in no position to say that it's #1, but imo the renovations made the course better.  My only experience with the "old scarlet" was in 1997 at the Ohio HS state tourney and it was in terrible shape during that time.  The greens were in rough shape, there were dandelions and weeds all over the course, and the bunkers had rocks and such throughout. As a 17 year old, I was greatly disappointed.

I have played the "new scarlet" as recently as this past August and it was much better.  The greens were exceptionally quick, all new bunkers (they're all very deep and penal and it's hard to spin the ball out of them), no weeds and dandelions, and now it's super long from the back.  I will play it again because it's a great but fair challenge.

I can see the skeleton of the old scarlet, but it seems like a brand new Nicklaus course to me.

What do the conditions have to do with the architecture?

JLahrman

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Re: OSU Golf Club tops rankings
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2009, 02:14:19 PM »
What do the conditions have to do with the architecture?

Who said anything about the architecture?  Jonathan's comments were probably much more in line with what the coaches used to evaluate the courses than what the dorks around here would use.

According to the article, the coaches were asked to determine the 'best' college courses.  Much like BCS voting, if those were the only instructions the coaches were given then who knows what they used for their criteria.  But I would guess that they rated the courses more on conditioning and ability to host a college golf tournament then they did on architecture.

If you go to the article:

http://www.thegolfchannel.com/golf-travel-insider/top-10-college-golf-courses-33572/

They've posted a comment or two made by the coaches about each course.  Architecture is mentioned, but also practice facilities, proximity to campus, and the number of events the course has held.  I can't say I disagree with some of those criteria.  A good college course should be close to the campus, for instance.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2009, 02:21:17 PM by JLahrman »

Matt_Cohn

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Re: OSU Golf Club tops rankings
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2009, 02:49:25 PM »
Any list with Duke #5 either has little to offer or can't be taken seriously.

Ciao

Sean, what's your dislike about Duke?

jonathan_becker

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Re: OSU Golf Club tops rankings
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2009, 02:59:13 PM »
Kyle,

My comments were mainly around conditioning, but here's a few architecture points.

 The bunkering was my main problem.  Architecturally, in 1997, the bunkers were shallow, not defined, and looked like little bumps just placed throughout the course.   That isn't my preferred bunker style because they're too easy and hitting out of them wasn't much of a challenge.  Also, by the time I played in 97, the trees were becoming so overgrown that you had to lace the ball straight and long on every hole.  But at 7200 yards in 97 with a great big bertha and a tour balata, you were forced to hit driver and strategy went out the door.  I just didn't care for it.  It just looked like a below-average, long, cramped, unkept, run-of-the-mill joint that you play for $20 and drink lots of beer with your buddies type course.

Now, the new bunkers place a considerable challenge to every golfer.  Teeing off, hitting your approaches, layups, etc, are all dictated by doing whatever is possible to keep your ball out of them.  Like I stated in my previous post, they are very penal.  They are so deep that it's almost a full shot penalty.  You cannot hit your ball in the fw bunkers and expect to play well.  It's just not going to happen.  Furthermore, if you short side yourself in one of the greenside bunkers, you can't get the ball up and down.  I like this because it puts a premium on shot-making and course management skills.

Trees have been removed as well and there are plenty left, but it doesn't feel near as cramped as 97. The course is more open and you now have multiple options off  tees.  The conditioning is excellent now all the time and this place now plays like a championship golf course.

 When you're 17 and you show up for the biggest tournament of your life with terrible conditions present and an overgrown course, your gonna be pissed and you're not going to like the place.  Now, all is forgotten with the old and the new OSU Scarlet has been changed for the better.  :)
« Last Edit: November 25, 2009, 03:03:43 PM by jonathan becker »

Niall Hay

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Re: OSU Golf Club tops rankings
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2009, 03:18:44 PM »
Well said....Remarks from an anonymous coach: "The OSU Scarlet Course has always exceeded my expectations as a coach. The golf course provides the ideal level of difficulty for college golf. The proximity to campus is also a plus."


David Whitmer

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Re: OSU Golf Club tops rankings
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2009, 03:21:02 PM »
Like Jonathan, I played the Scarlet course during the Ohio high school state tourney (fall of 1989) and a few times after that (but pre-renovation), and played it last year post-renovation. Thankfully I did not find the bad conditions he found when I was in high school, and they were also very good last year.

What I found last year was a very difficult golf course. The bunkers are absolutely brutal...if you go in one next to a fairway, you have very little chance of advancing it to the green. I heard that Nicklaus tried to make the bunkers look like MacKenzie bunkers, but my lack of knowledge on that subject means I do not know if he succeeded or not. The green on #4 was moved quite a bit right, next to the water. Other than that, the layout is exactly as I found it in 1989.

I have not played any of the other college courses, so I can't speak to the rankings. I think Scarlet is a very nice and extremely tough golf course, but from what I have seen, heard, and read, I'm willing to bet there are others I would consider better.

Andy Troeger

Re: OSU Golf Club tops rankings
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2009, 03:44:05 PM »
I played the OSU Scarlet Course post-renovation and was incredibly disappointed. The other four MacKenzie courses I have played are all absolutely wonderful and have tremendous character. OSU Scarlet doesn't hold a candle to any of them. It is very long, penal, narrow, and dull. I'd rather play Longaberger  ;) 

And for those still reading, that last comment was serious. However, I can see how college golf coaches would like OSU Scarlet. It would seem to be a "fair test" and its brutally difficult. It will determine who plays the best golf on any given day about as well as any course--it's just no fun. The variety of holes was probably better at one time but struck me as mediocre--they all seemed to be long and narrow with most of them heavily bunkered especially in front of the greens. The bunkers are deep and true hazards. College kids still probably can go low if conditions are right and they are on their games. It reminded me of some of Nicklaus' other recent work much more than anything else I've seen by MacKenzie.

Karsten Creek is easily superior to any of the other college courses that I've played and is borderline Top 100 USA for me. Warren is probably #2 (note ND alum), followed by UNM's Championship Course. I'm not a big Purdue fan for many of the same reasons as I mentioned for OSU Scarlet, which might again by why college coaches like it. I'd enjoy another round on the Purdue South Course (Ackerman Hills) more than Kampen, even if Kampen is probably the better course.

The Eisenhower Blue Course at the US Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs is pretty good too and well worth a play if one can get on.

Matt_Ward

Re: OSU Golf Club tops rankings
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2009, 03:50:03 PM »
Guys:

The Rawls easily gets a sniff of any top ten collegiate courses -- not even a question in my mind.

Good call from Andy on UNM -- still got plenty of heft.


Ken Fry

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Re: OSU Golf Club tops rankings
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2009, 03:51:16 PM »
No Warren and no Taconic?

Lou_Duran

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Re: OSU Golf Club tops rankings
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2009, 04:06:32 PM »
What do the conditions have to do with the architecture?

Kyle,

One of the greatest bits of "learning" I've gained from this site is TEPaul's maintenance meld.  I would add course set-up to this and state that without the proper maintenance and the tees and cups properly placed, the architecture can be greatly undermined.

I have played several hundred rounds between 1971-78 on the "old" Scarlet and except for the brief couple of weeks before and after the NCAA, the course was typically in fair to atrocious condition.  I've seen the greens so hard and bereft of grass that the grounds crew parked their maintenance vehicles on them without doing further damage.  But even in these conditions, I fell in love with golf and the Scarlet course.  The bones are there on what is still the MacKenzie routing.  I've only seen the "new" Scarlet during the final stages of feature shaping, but the removal of the many junk trees- spruces, crabapple- alone was a great improvement.

Matt Ward and I agree that the other OSU's course is outstanding.  Karsten Creek much like the University of Texas course is a college course in name only.  They are private clubs that have some affiliation with the varsity teams, but the student and staff populations have the same access as anyone else willing to pay a high green fee.  The most I paid at Ohio State for an annual pass was maybe $120, and that included a student locker on the second floor of the clubhouse.

Stanford's course is very nice, but I prefer Yale.  The Rawls course may not have had enough exposure, but its windy, firm conditions may also be a factor.  I think it is a better test than Stanford, but its faux-links style probably makes it too unusual for those who prefer more convetional venues.  I understand that Mr. Rawls himself was not completely sold on the fine maintenance meld that it has achieved.

The U of NM is a good course, probably in the same class as Stanford, but a bit ragged around the edges.  I like some of the elevation changes there, but it doesn't play nearly as long as the posted yardage. 

Matt_Ward

Re: OSU Golf Club tops rankings
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2009, 04:08:33 PM »
Lou:

If Karsten Creek doesn't provide generalized access to a wider array of people then just the collegiate golf team then it's really not a college course per se as the others no doubt are.

The Rawls would certainly make my top ten -- given what the rest of the competition is about.

Purdue's layout is also underrated in my mind.

Niall Hay

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Re: OSU Golf Club tops rankings
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2009, 04:14:04 PM »
I played the OSU Scarlet Course post-renovation and was incredibly disappointed. The other four MacKenzie courses I have played are all absolutely wonderful and have tremendous character. OSU Scarlet doesn't hold a candle to any of them. It is very long, penal, narrow, and dull. I'd rather play Longaberger  ;) 


Being hard or difficult doesn’t necessarily eliminate a course from being great. Oakmont, Pine Valley, Winged Foot, Oakland Hills are all examples of brutally difficult but great designs/courses. Scarlet is vastly superior to the University of Michigan course and is very difficult to compare with Cypress Point, Crystal Downs and even Pasatiempo or Meadow Club as they are all shorter and the land/climates are all very different from central Ohio. Scarlet has character; it’s just that character is more serious and hard on you than some others….sort of Woody Hayes-like….

Regardless it begs the question, is Ohio State’s Scarlet course the hardest and longest (even pre Jack lengthening) MacKenzie course in the world? And has another course land/site been scouted and looked at by Donald Ross, designed/routed by the Good Doctor and worked on by someone else as accomplished as Perry Maxell before? Even tweaked by Jack….

It has a great history that is on this very site by Tom MacWood (one of my all time favorite entries by him)…. http://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/ohio-state-golf

Niall Hay

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Re: OSU Golf Club tops rankings
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2009, 04:16:53 PM »


They've posted a comment or two made by the coaches about each course.  Architecture is mentioned, but also practice facilities, proximity to campus, and the number of events the course has held.  I can't say I disagree with some of those criteria.  A good college course should be close to the campus, for instance.
[/quote]

If anyone has used the practice facilities at OSU they know that they didn't have a posistive influence on these rankings.....or it wouldn't be # 1...

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