The Links Golf Club

[Bob Harris]

Matt,

I agree about Laurel Creek, it was a shame that they sold the surrounding property to Toll Brothers. 

Did you ever get a chance to play Medford Village when it was Sunny Jim's?  It may have been the most difficult courses I have ever played.

[astavrides]

Who wants to go through this thread and count how many laps Matt and Rick did on the theme:  'It's a horrible course.' 'I never said it was that good.'

[astavrides]

I agree with Rick re/ Matt's top 20 list.  I haven't played all those private courses, but I would put Ballamor easily in the Third 5.  And I can think of at least 5, probably 10 more worthy public courses for the list than Rancocas.  Otherwise, I agree with the list.

[Rick Sides]

MAtt,
I have played almost every club on your list but Tavistock and Medteconk.  I would like to check these two courses out in the future. I think your list is solid.

[Matt_Ward]

Bob:

I agree that few people would have heard of the former name Sunny Jim's when it was called that years ago. I did play the course for the first time about 25 years ago. Made quite an impression because of the severe cramped fairways and the limited recovery options available.

Credit Doak for including the course in his CG book and giving it a six. Frankly, with the right involvement of a quality architect and some sensible tree cutting the place could be even better.

What's amazing is that William Gordon gets plenty of design mileage out of his efforts at Saucon Valley (Grace) and The Stanwich Club but Medford Village could easily move beyond either of those two with the right adjustments to what's there now.

One further comment / re: Laurel Creek. When the place first opened it had a really wild Midwest flourish -- sort of like Dye's effort at Crooked Stick -- the Palmer course is one that for whatever reason has not received much attention. Unfortinately, the sheer array of housing that engulfs the course now has made it more akin to a "any course USA" with little of what endeared the place to me when I first played it soon after it opened.

astavrides:

I don't see Ballamor being better than Pine Barrens or Scotland Run. Laurel Creek is also quite good even with the housing component. Don't know if you have played Greate Bay or Sea Oaks but they still merit inclusoin for a range of quality golf holes throughout the round there.

Be interesting to see your listing. As an FYI -- I have played Rancocas on three different occasions and was blessed with good turf quality although the reports I get -- from this site and others -- is far different. Likely a rethinking would be helpful -- possibly Riverton or another layout.

Rick:

The key in playing Metedeconk National is to play the original front nine and skip towards the additional nine built a few years after the first 18. The 3rd Nine as it is called is quite fun and a bit more compelling than the rather dull holes you get from the original inner half -- save for the original closer.

The 3rd Nine has aruably, the toughest closing hole in all of Jersey. The dog-leg right par-4 27th hole just demands pinpoint lays with the tee shot and approach as H20 lurks ever so near.

One last comment -- I was impressed with my walk at Tavistock and would not be adverse to switching it to a first five position after hopefully playing it in 2010.

[astavrides]

Matt,
I've played Sea Oaks, and I like it, but I think Ballamor is a little better.  I even think Ballamor can compete with Twisted Dune, but that is, to a large extent, due to it's superior conditioning.  If the conditioning of Ballamor gets worse when it becomes fully private, then Twisted will be clearly better.

[JeffTodd]

I have played Rancocas a half dozen times or so and never had an issue with the quality of the turf. But with that said I have a hard time believing it is a Top 25 course in South Jersey. I can easily forgive the surrounding aesthetics, and look past the tree issues (even the more lightly treed front nine has some serious offenders left standing). But after looking past that I think you’re left with a fairly average RTJ parkland offering. That’s not to say it’s bad, but it’s hardly a standout.

Of courses I’ve played I would certainly replace Rancocas with Tavistock, Sand Barrens, and even the remaining Blue Heron Pines, in that order and all by a fairly wide margin. For my money, Riverwinds (haven’t played in a few years so I’m not sure the shape it’s in),  Eagle Ridge, and even McCullough’s on the trash heap are more fun and interesting than Rancocas.

I see Rancocas as sitting in the middle of the pack for South Jersey alongside places like Wedgwood, Burlington Country Club, Seaview Pines, Buena Vista, Atlantis, and yes, Ballamor. None of them are bad courses, but even a South Jersey guy like me seldom seeks them out for a game.

I would not put Ballamor very high on my list, and I cannot get my head wrapped around the notion that Ballamor could compete with Twisted Dune, Sea Oaks, or anyone on that list except Rancocas. Say what you will about South Jersey golf, but at the very least nearly every course provides a good walk with few exceptions, such as Pine Hill, Greenbriar At Ocean Aire, and possibly Cape May National (due solely to the walk from #9 to #10). The routing at Ballamor may in fact be a very creative way around some difficult restrictions, but I find the course on the ground to be disjointed, and frankly, not all that great even if the odd routing is forgiven.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Re: Laurel Creek

Certainly the invasion of Toll Bros housing has lessened the experience at LC. I played there many times before the houses appeared. I believe the original development plans for LC had housing in the mix. If not, commercial properties-office buildings were planned. I can't remember. But Toll Bros may not have been the original developer. I played there a few years ago and the first hole, a nice cape par4 with a lake on the left, is immediately spoiled by the view from the tee- a row of  2 story single family houses packed within a few feet of each other that appear beyond the fairway. It gets worse from there. If you erase the housing, LC is a prety good golf course and at one time-pre housing- was ranked in top 10 in NJ by GD.

Palmer was very busy in the Philadelphia area in the early 90s with Commonwealth, Blue Bell and Laurel Creek- all real estate development courses.

[Matt_Ward]

astavrides:

Interesting comments you provide, Ballamor v TD. I don't see them being that close at all -- in Doak number terms Ballamor would be no more than a 4 for me -- TD is no less than a solid 5 and even a possible 6 when the turf issues are at a high level.

The broader issue left unsaid is how woeful so much of what constitutes public golf in the greater AC area is. Simply ho-hum out-and-in layouts.

Steve S:

The sad part Steve is just as you mentioned -- the earliest days of LC were quite superb. The course had natural vistas that weren't shoe-horned in like a NYC skyline engulfing the course. AP gets a lot of flack here on GCA, justifiably so in my mind for so many of his design opportunities that were wasted, LC was special when it first came onto the scene. The blowing fescue grasses, the wide fairways, and the different strategies one needed to employ were quite fun and certainly a good bit beyond the previous quality golf (I say that in jest) one often found in South Jersey. The place could be something more special than what is there but the outlines of a number of the holes still has plenty to offer.

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

Of all the courses in South Jersey that would be a real treat to see totally restored and upgraded is the old Atlantis in Tuckerton. If my memory serves me -- this is the first George Fazio design and was done during his stint as pro at PV. Just a fun course the way it routes itself through the property. One of the better par-3 holes you can play in all of South Jersey is the 6th -- a majestic downhill hole with H20 and water that creeps into the boundary edge of the fronting bunkers. Ocean County now owns the property and alas what I have just wished for will likely not happen. The bones are indeed there should a reconsideration be in order.

Jeff T:

Fair points on Rancocas -- clearly any number of courses could be substituted for it. You mentioned Sand Barrens and it's clear good choice. I am not so much a fan of BHP/W -- it's a decent course but really lacking anything architecturally that is worthy of special recognition.

You did mentioned Riverwinds and the issue for me is the conditioning aspect. Not expecting turf quality akin to a private club but a bit more on that front. If that happened then yes, a placement in a top 25 overall for South Jersey would be a fair inclusion. Let me also point out that Cape May National should have been much better than what you see there now. The closing hole is one of South Jersey's best. -- ditto what might have been given the inane design flaws at Shoregate -- it could have been far, far better.

[astavrides]

astavrides:

Interesting comments you provide, Ballamor v TD. I don't see them being that close at all -- in Doak number terms Ballamor would be no more than a 4 for me -- TD is no less than a solid 5 and even a possible 6 when the turf issues are at a high level.

Yeah, it's really a conditioning question.  Ballamor was very good--even in November, and Twisted was in very bad condition the one time I played it this summer (i've played it several times in the past, and even then conditioning wasn't that good). 

I will say that I thought Ballamor had good, strategic holes, especially considering the flat landscape.  I very much like the work Dan Schelgel has done here, at Heron Glen, and at Mercer Oaks East.   True though, that the routing makes it basically unwalkable. 

[Matt_Ward]

In all the discussion tied to South Jersey golf and the lack of really superb courses - minus the one or two exceptions -- I am amazed at the concerted effort carried out in and around the AC area during the go / go 90's and how little of real quality came forward on the public side. No doubt on the private side you have the likes of Galloway, Hidden Creek and the upgraded ACCC.

Even worse -- the area of south central and south west NJ really never took off in any meaingful way -- although Scotland Run and to a lesser degree you have the likes of Riverwinds and Pine Hill.

What's really tragic is how much of a missed opportunity there was with Pine Hill -- a great site - in rough terms comparablle to PV but so utterly vanilla in what came down the lines minus just a few holes of note (e.g. the uphill 9th and downhill 10th, to name two that come quickly to mind).

[Bob Harris]

Re: Laurel Creek

Certainly the invasion of Toll Bros housing has lessened the experience at LC. I played there many times before the houses appeared. I believe the original development plans for LC had housing in the mix. If not, commercial properties-office buildings were planned. I can't remember. But Toll Bros may not have been the original developer. I played there a few years ago and the first hole, a nice cape par4 with a lake on the left, is immediately spoiled by the view from the tee- a row of  2 story single family houses packed within a few feet of each other that appear beyond the fairway. It gets worse from there. If you erase the housing, LC is a prety good golf course and at one time-pre housing- was ranked in top 10 in NJ by GD.

Palmer was very busy in the Philadelphia area in the early 90s with Commonwealth, Blue Bell and Laurel Creek- all real estate development courses.

Steve,

The founders of LC were known as the Foursome and Bob Scarborough, one of the larger home builders in South Jersey at the time, was one of the them.  The course opened in 1989 or 1990 and Toll didn't start building until 1996.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Bob,

I remember that Whitesell died and the original developers eventually sold to Toll Bros.  I still can't remember what their plans were for LC. Whitesell was a office park developer and Scarborough a housing developer so I think it may have been some combination of office and residential.

It was a great place to play before Toll Bros started building there. The housing there is very intrusive IMO. I like their clubhouse.

[Bob Harris]

Steve,

The plan was for large estate homes bordering the course on the Moorestown side.  I lived in Moorestown at that time and the township was very much opposed to any type of high density housing.  Due to Moorestown being dry, they had to build the club house on the Mt. Laurel side of the property.

Bob

[Matt_Ward]

The story that resonates from Laurel Creek is a great example on how the potential for a layout can be compromised from actions that take place years after the course opens.

Laurel Creek left a wonderful impression on me when it first opened years ago -- my return trip there was far less so.

A pity.