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DMoriarty

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Re: How difficult shall we make our golf-courses?
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2009, 01:12:43 PM »
Jim, your question really depends upon what you mean by "difficulty"  but I do generally disagree, at least in the sense that designing for difficulty was highly overrated then and remains so now.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: How difficult shall we make our golf-courses?
« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2009, 01:21:18 PM »
I think its a good question to discuss then - and now.

The bigger picture is did architecture improve our players then? I know down in Texas, we think that our great golfers developed their skills mostly from playing in our wind, even though it was on dog tracks.  Is wind more relevant to developing good players?

Secondly, 100 years ago, we had few good USA courses.  Now we have plenty.  Do we still need to continue to develop tough new courses, or do we have enough?  On the competitive level, given the Ryder Cup seems to favor the Euros, and foreigners compete well or in the case of the LPGA dominate our tours, how could architecture affect a return to prominence of the USA?  Is it relevant at all to producing golf champions as was postulated then?  Is it relevant now?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Melvyn Morrow

Re: How difficult shall we make our golf-courses?
« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2009, 01:22:50 PM »

"Play real Golf" – so I am not the only one to use these words.

Stupid question to some but was Devereux Emmet an American?

Melvyn


Jud_T

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Re: How difficult shall we make our golf-courses?
« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2009, 01:29:30 PM »
IMHO seems to me that the tough part is not designing difficult courses, but courses that are fun AND challenging for the scratch player as well as the 20 hdcp...There are plenty of courses that are very challenging for the scratch player and no fun for anyone over a 10, and conversely plenty of fun little courses that provide little challenge for the single digit player....
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

TEPaul

Re: How difficult shall we make our golf-courses?
« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2009, 01:30:22 PM »
Instead or proceeding to debate and yes argue over what anyone means by the term difficulty (or even "real golf"), I think it might be worthwhile to discuss what the writer meant by this in 1902---

"Shall we, in deference to the fact that the majority of the members of our clubs are mediocre players, call a halt in the development of our links,"

In other words, what do you suppose he was looking at generally in 1902 or thinking about generally that made him mention 'call a halt in the development of our links?' What architectural state or situation do you suppose he was generally talking about in America in 1902, that seemingly he felt needed more development?

Had Emmet, for instance, become pissed in 1902 that Walter Travis was beginning to dick around architecturally with HIS golf course----eg GCGC, by increasing and changing the bunkers on it and perhaps making its green contours far more complex than they had been with Emmet's original GCGC course?

TEPaul

Re: How difficult shall we make our golf-courses?
« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2009, 01:31:38 PM »
"Stupid question to some but was Devereux Emmet an American?"

Not really; he was actually a New Yorker.



But I will tell you something pretty interesting or potentially interesting about the apparent ethnic extraction of Devereux Emmet. The Devereux part of his name is very likely from his maternal side which was a prominent American family of French extraction who perhaps in the 18th or 19th century became quite prominent in Southeastern Ireland. They also had a few really awesome hunting plantations in the Carolinas (still do actually) which might explain Devereux Emmet's other sideline of training hunting dogs in the south and then transporting them to Ireland and selling them every year.

« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 01:52:09 PM by TEPaul »

JESII

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Re: How difficult shall we make our golf-courses?
« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2009, 01:38:51 PM »
I don't know Tom, considering Emmet sounds like he was promoting greater difficulty I think it unlikely he was saying so while pissed at Travis for making changes to his course that would typically make one more difficult.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: How difficult shall we make our golf-courses?
« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2009, 01:44:32 PM »

So why, when I use the words do I get a fair amount of rubbish directed at me by my American friends.

Interesting ::)

Melvyn 

JESII

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Re: How difficult shall we make our golf-courses?
« Reply #33 on: November 23, 2009, 01:47:13 PM »
He's actually not using the words remotely as insulting as you do.

TEPaul

Re: How difficult shall we make our golf-courses?
« Reply #34 on: November 23, 2009, 01:50:50 PM »
Sully:

I think he was promoting greater difficulty in golf and architecture too. I think if we look at what they were actually saying in this vein most all those guys like Emmet were trying to promote greater difficulty in golf and architecture and the reasons why were pretty obvious.

Of course, it is probably appropriate to discuss what-ALL they meant by greater difficulty. I doubt a single one of them would've admitted they were promoting what we seem to call "penal" golf and architecture (more like us miscalling it that). I think they were trying to promote a philosophy and likely an actual practice and application of what may be better termed "thinking" golf (what some of us might also refer to as strategic golf and architecture).

If you read what those guys back then wrote in this vein enough and long enough you can't help but notice that the words and ideas of "thinking" and "strategic" were pretty much used synonymously by them (as well as by their counterparts on the other side).
« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 01:54:43 PM by TEPaul »

mike_malone

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Re: How difficult shall we make our golf-courses?
« Reply #35 on: November 23, 2009, 02:01:20 PM »
  One of my favorite college courses was the Philosophy of History. Much of the course was an exploration of how difficult it is to "put ourselves in their shoes". I feel the same way about this quote. Although Tom Paul is probably closest to the truth. One needs to study practically everything written then about golf architecture to understand the true meaning of any of it.
AKA Mayday

DMoriarty

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Re: How difficult shall we make our golf-courses?
« Reply #36 on: November 23, 2009, 06:02:27 PM »
 One of my favorite college courses was the Philosophy of History. Much of the course was an exploration of how difficult it is to "put ourselves in their shoes". I feel the same way about this quote. Although Tom Paul is probably closest to the truth. One needs to study practically everything written then about golf architecture to understand the true meaning of any of it.

While we may not be able to step in their shoes we can look at the courses at the time to get some idea of what they were talking about. Plus, carefully reading the old material certainly helps, but one must be careful not to simply substitute in one's own preconceived notions in place of the actual words.    

For example, the poster you seem to agree with most will not take the quote about making courses more difficult at face value.  Without explanation, he simply announces that more difficult could not have meant more penal.   Next, again with out any real explanation, proof, or support, he announces that more difficult didn't mean more difficult at all, but rather it meant "thinking golf."  Next, we are told that "thinking" and "strategic" golf were pretty much used synonymously back then.  Never mind that no one except for the poster used the term "thinking."   We are told to believe all of this because the poster has implied that he has read extensively from the era.   ::)

So there you have it.   More difficult does not mean penal. More difficult means thinking golf.  And thinking means strategic.  

Who knew!  By advocating more difficult courses, Emmet was advocating strategic golf!  End of discussion.  

Funny because Emmet's work and ideas from this period seem to have been pretty penal to me.  
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Melvyn Morrow

Re: How difficult shall we make our golf-courses?
« Reply #37 on: November 23, 2009, 06:20:14 PM »

"So there you have it.   More difficult does not mean penal. More difficult means thinking golf.  And thinking means strategic". 

Which in 2009 means not playing real golf but easy golf. Many just can't play real golf or should I say they do not seem interested in real golf.

The modern golfer lets the cart do the walking and the toys do the thinking - think all your Golden Age guys would be rather pissed at the modern golfer.

 Hi Jim think that hits thre nail right on the head - I suppose you will say thats insulting, even though its the truth.

Melvyn

Bill_McBride

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Re: How difficult shall we make our golf-courses?
« Reply #38 on: November 23, 2009, 06:57:45 PM »

"So there you have it.   More difficult does not mean penal. More difficult means thinking golf.  And thinking means strategic". 

Which in 2009 means not playing real golf but easy golf. Many just can't play real golf or should I say they do not seem interested in real golf.

The modern golfer lets the cart do the walking and the toys do the thinking - think all your Golden Age guys would be rather pissed at the modern golfer.

 Hi Jim think that hits thre nail right on the head - I suppose you will say thats insulting, even though its the truth.

Melvyn
Melvyn, is it possible that a Golden Age guy with a bum leg might be happy to have a cart so he could continue to play golf instead of staying home?

Melvyn Morrow

Re: How difficult shall we make our golf-courses?
« Reply #39 on: November 23, 2009, 07:07:31 PM »
Bill

I am on record saying that those with a mobility problem should be allowed to play.

Melvyn


Mac Plumart

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Re: How difficult shall we make our golf-courses?
« Reply #40 on: November 23, 2009, 07:10:05 PM »
Bill/Melvyn...you touched on a major issue for me...I think about it EVERY time I play.

Back in the day, a guy like me would have to make a choice...quit or suffer.  I can take a cart and walk a few feet to my ball and hit, then ride.  But the "Golden Age" guy couldn't ride.   Humbling and perspective setting for me.

For these types of reasons, Ben Hogan is kind of like a hero to me.  Busted up big time in a car wreck, he "man's" up and walks 4 rounds of golf in the 1950 US Open at Merion and an extra 18 holes for a playoff to win it all.  To me that is astounding and a complete call to courage and determination.  And I am not even touching base on 1953.

The power of the mind, will power, and the love of the game.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

TEPaul

Re: How difficult shall we make our golf-courses?
« Reply #41 on: November 23, 2009, 07:24:29 PM »
"One of my favorite college courses was the Philosophy of History. Much of the course was an exploration of how difficult it is to "put ourselves in their shoes". I feel the same way about this quote. One needs to study practically everything written then about golf architecture to understand the true meaning of any of it."


I like that post a lot Mayday. That is very good. When one reads enough of what most all those guys (and we need to identify who we mean by 'all those guys') said and wrote one really does find some common terms and phraseology which individually or sort of out of total context we might not pick up on so easily. I think I've read most of what those guys I'm referring to wrote back then and the actual implication, if not the crystal clear written and sentence structured statements, do seem to indicate that what they called "thinking" golf and what either they OR WE TODAY call "strategic" golf and architecture was incredibly similiar and perhaps even one and the same.

But how WE identify how they actually visualized that in practice or actually put that on the ground and in detail, will probably always be somewhat problematic to identify or pinpoint.

Frankly, I wouldn't even worry about the latter because essentially that is just the subjective nature of golf course architecture which is as it should be, I think----eg "The Big World Theory," which I firmly believe can be both backed up and confirmed by what the likes of Macdonald and Mackenzie said and wrote about the benefits of creating with excellent golf architecture what they referred to as "controversy"------eg anything that is hotly debated and contested over time is interesting for that very reason and anything that is generally condoned by all is bound to be both boring and bland.  ;)

TEPaul

Re: How difficult shall we make our golf-courses?
« Reply #42 on: November 23, 2009, 07:43:01 PM »
On post #36---how should I say this correctly for this website without coming across this time as rude or personal or adverserial?----the poster seems to question another poster's opinion that it is his feeling that those men back then who wrote about more difficult golf and more thinking and strategic golf and architecture might have been implying something that was essentially one and the same.

Well, that is simply my own feeling about what I think they were saying and meant to imply from reading constantly for the last 10-12 years about what some of the most significant architects throughout the history and evolution of golf course architecture have also said and wrote. Proposing golf and architecture that was merely more penal simply to penalize at every turn the mediocre player just didn't seem to be something they would suggest or did suggest or would or did contemplate for fairly obvious reasons I believe most of us today, or even back then, or at any time, could probably intuit!  ;)

Perhaps one of the most confirming statements of what I said is a simple and original statement from arguably the most significant American architect of the middle era or the middle of the modern era----Pete Dye, when he said about the touring pros-----"Get those guys "THINKING" (give them difficult and strategic golf architecture) and they are really in trouble!"   ;)


Nota bene:
As I'm sure many of you are aware by now, I've known Pete Dye and Alice most of my life and I do know that while that statement of Pete's is pithy and quotable, he knows, and he knows better than me and most all of you that there is much about it that really isn't true and it never has been. By that I mean he knows and I know and I hope you know that it is not true that if you get tour pros thinking they are really in trouble. If that were the case they wouldn't be golfers who play on the PGA Tour, unarguably the very highest level of golfers in the world!   :P :-* ;)
« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 07:53:26 PM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

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Re: How difficult shall we make our golf-courses?
« Reply #43 on: November 23, 2009, 09:07:03 PM »
Here is the complete article. I find the second paragraph particularly interesting regarding the question posed:

"This question has happily been answered for all time in the West, where such men as Whigham and CB Macdonald were given a free hand at Wheaton and Onwentsia, and plenty of money with which to carry out their ideas. Probably too many courses have been made near New York. It would have been better to have fewer, and to spend more money on them. Certainly the question of expense has been a very serious drawback in making them properly. A great deal of poor work has crept in, simply because the money was not available to do it properly, and much that is now being done on out courses is really the finishing of work half done in the beginning..."

TEPaul

Re: How difficult shall we make our golf-courses?
« Reply #44 on: November 23, 2009, 09:35:29 PM »
Tom MacWood:

Thanks for posting the entire article. It is really fascinating but very hard to read on here. Can you tell us what it was published in and precisely when?

Tom MacWood

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Re: How difficult shall we make our golf-courses?
« Reply #45 on: November 23, 2009, 10:05:17 PM »
Golf magazine February 1902

DMoriarty

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Re: How difficult shall we make our golf-courses?
« Reply #46 on: November 23, 2009, 11:04:28 PM »
Mike,


My post was addressed to you, and your comments on you old History class.  My purpose was to comment on what you wrote, and perhaps to challenge it a bit.   We try to talk about the history all the time, but rarely do we talk about the methodology we ought to be using, so I am glad you brought it up.  

And if we are serious about actually figuring this stuff out, then above we have a perfect example of just how NOT to conduct and present historical research.  

The post in question offers "feeling" and "opinion" rather than analysis, and that "feeling" is based on nothing but a self-proclaimed familiarity with the writings of the time, yet that claim is unsupported. No writings were offered.  No examples.  No nothing.  Come to think of it, no real analysis was offered either.  We are simply told what to believe based on his opinion of his expertise.

Worse, the source material that is supposed to be so important is distorted to the point of absurdity.   "Difficult" doesn't mean "difficult."  "Difficult" means "strategic."   And we get baseless conjecture about how Emmet would not consider himself a penal designer but rather strategic.   Again no support is offered.  But it is not as if Emmet's words are hidden in a vault somewhere.  Much of the same article posted by TomM is in Garden City's history book.  

Bottom line, Mike, is that it shouldn't be enough to claim a supposed expertise and then expect our "feelings" to be accept as fact, or even taken seriously in a discussion.  It has nothing to do with "feelings."  It is about figuring out what happened and that takes verifiable facts, and an honest reading of the source material.    And the results here bear this out.   The notion that "difficulty" equates to "strategy" is not only absurd on its face, Emmet's own words completely contradict it.    

To Emmet, difficult meant difficult.  Penal.  Harder.  Golf holes should be made narrower, more hazards should be added, the rough should be deeper and thicker..   According to Emmet, many attributed Garden City's reputation for difficulty to narrow fairways and high rough, but it wasn't narrow enough for Emmet, and the rough wasn't tough enough.  He wanted to make the fairways narrower, and the rough deeper, and the hazards more imposing.

"I think it generally conceded among people who have given the subject much thought, both here and abroad, that the subject of all changes and improvements should be to compel greater accuracy and straightness of play."

Are we to believe that compelling "accuracy and straightness of play" is just another way to say that courses should be made wider, more strategic, with more choices?  When he wrote that "most courses are far to wide" was he advocating strategic golf?  

He advocated straigher and narrower, more side hazards and deeper and wider ones as well.   He advocated deeper, thicker rough, so that the golfer could get out of it with a niblick "but only a short distance."

"It seems to me that it would be better to lose a few balls, or even a great many balls, than to utterly spoil one of the natural features that make a good golf course what it is.   In my opinion, the Garden City course is fairly ruined every year by the mowing of the rough side hazard, to say nothing of the burning, which is worse."  

Would Emmet have described his approach as what we think of as penal?    Maybe not, but if not it is because the supposed Penal School were a bunch of wusses compared to Emmet!

Trying to twist his words into any sort of statement on "strategic architecture" would be a complete farce at best, and entirely disingenuous at worst.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2009, 01:47:57 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: How difficult shall we make our golf-courses?
« Reply #47 on: November 23, 2009, 11:13:49 PM »
"Golf magazine February 1902."


Tom MacWood:

Thank you. I think I have it on my computer but my Golf Magazine string might not go all the way up to 1902, or am I thinking of Boston's The Golfer magazine which began in 1895? Hopefully it does though and I can read a clearer copy of the article in question by Emmet. Was not the Golf Magazine you refered to the one that advertised itself as an official spokes-magazine for the early United States Golf Association?
« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 11:15:23 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: How difficult shall we make our golf-courses?
« Reply #48 on: November 23, 2009, 11:28:16 PM »
Mayday:

As for that post #46 you are definitely welcome to your own conclusion, but in my opinion, with his opinion on your statement about your interest in the philosophy of history I would submit that post has nothing much to do with that or with what you meant by your interest or opinon in the philosophy of history and pretty much everything to do with the way that poster thinks the discussion  of any historical subject on this website should be conducted which is something akin to a court of law and its procedures and protocols. I'm afraid the procedure and protocols in a court of law is not that much akin to the discovery and analysis of the truth of history or of the philosophy of historical analysis!  ;)

I'm afraid the poster in question is too concerned about a legal forum in which inherently someone wins and someone loses which does not necessarily have everything to do with the truth or actual facts of the case or subject. This is not the way a historical forum should be countenanced or conducted. ;)
« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 11:36:15 PM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

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Re: How difficult shall we make our golf-courses?
« Reply #49 on: November 24, 2009, 06:28:16 AM »
Let's stop worrying about the intent of other posters (or the intent of the person who started the thread) and try to stick with the subject matter. These side comments and commentaries unrelated to the topic are the main reasons these threads often unravel. Stick to the subject please.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2009, 06:35:35 AM by Tom MacWood »

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