Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Courses

[DMoriarty]

Does the Biarritz concept require the swale or is it really just the long par three over some sort of chasm? I hac always thought the swale was the key factor in a Biarritz but you seem to say not. #17 at Merion certainly doesn't have a swale...much closer in appearance and function to the Valley of Sin other than my understanding that positioning was vital to the value.

On a recent thread George indicated that the Biarritz was their name for their long par 3, and that the requirements were not as strict as everyone seems to think.  He provided at least one example were there was just a very small swale short of the green, and I believe he wrote that sometimes there was no swale but a green with a plateau in front.   In Whigham's description from 1913 he does not mention a swale but a "dip."   I am not sure i understand why it matters, whether swale, dip or valley the golfer must negotiate it without getting offline or stuck on its greenside bank.  

Where do you see the difference, functionally?

If there is a difference it is that Merion has the creekbed/ditch to deal with and not much of a hogback ridge short of the valley or swale or dip or whatever you want to call it.  

But remember Jim, there was no example for Wilson to have studied when he first built that hole, as there were none other yet built.   And I so I think it too much to assume that his realization of CBM's concept would turn out like Raynor's or even CBM's. And Wilson's other obvious attempts at CBM concept holes were not exactly facsimiles either.   And as I said, I think that green was one of the ones rebuilt for drainage early on.    

But as far as the general concept and the routing goes, one has to squeeze one's eyes pretty tight to not find CBM's influence on the group of one shot holes at Merion.  We have an attempt at a Redan, a great natural short (on land which CBM wanted them to acquire,) and then two holes that match the other two CBM short holes distance-wise at the very least.    
-- At first glance the 9th seems nothing like an Eden, but the distance is right as is the fact that a stream crosses in front, thus eliminating the possibility of a foozle getting to the green (A CBM trademark on his Edens.) And this too is one of the greens that was rebuilt early (and then modified a few years later) only it seems to have been more substantial changed than the 17th.  So I wouldn't discount the possibility that it was somewhat based on the Eden originally, especially from the original tee.    Surely the records that Wayne is hiding shed some light but that is beyond my control.
-  Then we have the 17th and the similarities are discussed above.  

But perhaps we are getting carried away here and this is not the time or place for this.  

[Mac Plumart]

Interesting stuff!

David...you touched on another architectural concept...Eden.  What is that defintion...is there a first course that used that one?

We've got some scoop on the Biarritz and the Redan on this thread.  What are some other specific concepts that we might want to include.

I've mentioned RT Jones' "heroic" carry.  Do we know the first time he used it?  The first time he used a par 5 heroic carry was cited, but was alluded to that that didn't fit RTJ's "heroic" definition.

Island greens were discussed.

Are there others we should include?

[DMoriarty]

Mac George Bahto is the real expert on these things and I think if you look at his interview and use the search you will figure it out.   
Also his book definitely goes into it. 

The Eden green is for the one shot 11th (or High Hole In) and the 7th (High hole out) at The Old Course,   Eden comes from the name of the river bordering the green.  "Eden" usually refers to the par three although I think the entire green was known as the Eden Green.

[Mac Plumart]

Thanks David.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mac,
RTJ's own words can be found in C&W, pg 104.

"The trapping in the heroic is not as profuse as in the penal, nor as scarce as in the strategic. Traps vary from ugly, treacherous looking ones to small, igsignificant pot bunkers. The line of flight is usually blocked by some formidable looking hazard placed at a diagonal and involving a carry of from 170 to 220 yards in which the player is allowed to bite off as much as he feels he can chew. If his game is not equal to the task a safe alternate route to play round it is provided. The same principle is used in the green design, in which the green is placed at an angle to the line of flight with an opening allowed for the cautious. " 

[Mac Plumart]

Thanks Jim, I'll check that out tonight!

[Mac Plumart]

David M...thanks for recommending the George Bahto interview.  Amazingly educational.  It will be something I refer to time and time again.

[TEPaul]

"But perhaps we are getting carried away here and this is not the time or place for this."


Who is we? Who is the "we" who's getting carried away again with Merion? Looking at this thread it's no "we" at all, it's all you again and all by yourself! This is the sole reason on here this Merion divisiveness will probably never die on this website.  

What on this thread or any other on here prompted this from you today in your last post?

"Surely the records that Wayne is hiding shed some light but that is beyond my control."

Wayne Morrison has not been on this website for over a year and he's never hidden anything to do with Merion. If he chose not to share something to do with Merion with you who he thinks is an unmitigated jerk and for really good reason, then that's why he may not have provided you with something but he is not hiding anything to do with Merion from anyone and either is Merion. If anyone wants to access Merion's substantial an really impressive archives they only need to contact the club, go through their process and then go there. You could have done that at some point but you didn't and now with these same old constant and gratuitous lies and insults toward Wayne Morrison, a respected member of Merion, you just put on here again today and for no apparent reason about Wayne Morrison hiding something it is high time that you be censured for this by this website. Nobody inspired or prompted that insult by you of Wayne Morrison on here, you did that all by yourself and completely gratuitously today. The list is long of those on here and elsewhere who Wayne's generosity regarding all things to do with Merion has affected and benefited and they at least should roundly castigate you for what you just said about Wayne in your last post. He's definitely a really fine friend of mine and I see no reason whatsoever not to speak up for him when I read insulting garbage like that AGAIN today. Why does this Merion bad blood drag on here?  THAT is why!

Wayne Morrison is not hiding anything regarding Merion and you know it. You lied and at someone's expense AGAIN and this website should be aware of it and they should deal with you appropriately.


 

[Mac Plumart]

So...how about that green at La Phare?  Interesting, huh?  The first Biarritz, I think at least.  I'm digging into the RTJ heroic carry now.  Man...those are thrilling shots...don't you think?

[Mac Plumart]

Now I find this very interesting...

Robert Trent Jones in known as the Father of Heroic golf and Target golf.

According to Cornish and Whitten in the book "The Golf Course", in 1946 RTJ was hired to recondition Augusta National.  On hole #16, he damned the creek, rotated the direction of the hole 90 degrees and created the present 16th hole, which is a mid to long iron over a pond.  I have to believe this is his first par 3 heroic carry.  Thoughts?

Also, C&W go on to say that in 1949 he was hired to revamp Oakland Hills for the 1951 US Open.  During this rennovation, he established target golf by establishing specific targets for tee shots through the use of bunkered the fairways...they say he pinched them.

Could, therefore, Augusta National be groundbreaking for its heroic par 3 carry and Oaklland Hills be groundbreaking for its introduction of target golf?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Here's something Desmond Muirhead said:
 
"Heroic carries are the ultimate form of strategic design. In heroic design, you are encouraged to gamble, go-for-broke, indulge in "death or glory." Rivers, lakes, creeks, ravines, bunkers, natural or man-made are used on the diagonal so that the golfer can bite off as much of the hazard as he feels able with commensurate rewards for daring and courage......... Heroic holes, which require mandatory carries, usually offer an alternate route to the golfer who feels unable to play the gamble. By taking this easier route, the golfer expects to lose a stroke".

I don't think 16 fits that description, there's no way around the pond for the faint of heart. Bringing out the hero in a player is much more rewarding when you let them do it for themselves. That's not to say you wouldn't feel like one if you hit the green at 16.     

[TEPaul]

"So...how about that green at La Phare?  Interesting, huh?  The first Biarritz, I think at least."


Mac:

I hope you understand what's gone on here with the so-called biarritz hole that CBM and Raynor got into doing in America----eg the architectural etymology of the massive swale on most all biarrtiz holes has been an unanswered or undocumented question for many years. Only one or two that were done over here actually looked much like that famous Chasm hole at Le Phare in Biarritz France that was very dramatic in that it played from tee to green over an inlet of the Bay of Biscay. There has never been good photographic evidence of that Chasm hole and so it has been impossible to tell if it had a prominent swale in it. And so, if not, the question has long been where Macdonald/Raynor got that idea as a number of the Biarritz holes they did over here were on relatively flat ground?

Some, apparently including George Bahto, think CBM got the idea from the swale in front of the 18th at TOC known as "The Valley of Sin." That's certainly logical as CBM did know TOC well for many years. But as of yesterday I'm beginning to wonder if he might have gotten the idea for that swale from Merion East's 17th hole when he saw that landform on April 6, 1911 (before construction) routed as Merion's 17th hole on one of the five plans the Wilson committee showed he and Whigam on that particular day, and which chronologically was before he or Raynor (or Whigam) ever did a biarritz hole in America.

By the way, since none of us have ever seen a preconstruction topo of Merion East (although we do know one existed) we are not sure what that landform looked like before the construction of that hole. I suspect it looked pretty much like it does now complete with that berm that essentially creates the beginning of the massive dip that runs all the way to the upslope of that green. I think that berm was probably a road or rail or cart track that was used to haul stone out of the previously operating stone quarry that runs between the 16th and 17th holes.

On the other hand, I've also wondered if there may not have been another hole (not the Chasm hole) at Le Phare at Biarritz France that had a hogsback green and perhaps a massive swale in it where CBM got that idea for a massive swale for the biarritz hole he and Raynor would do over here perhaps during one of his architectural study trips abroad between 1902-1906.

[Mac Plumart]

Tom P...

Thanks and I am getting it.  For a point of clarification, who gave the name Biarritz hole to hole/feature that we use today?  Was it MacDonald?  If so, wouldn't the idea had to have come from La Phare at Biarritz?  Otherwise, the name makes no sense.

[TEPaul]

"For a point of clarification, who gave the name Biarritz hole to hole/feature that we use today?  Was it MacDonald?  If so, wouldn't the idea had to have come from La Phare at Biarritz?  Otherwise, the name makes no sense."


Mac:

Good question. I would think the name had to have come from Macdonald.

On the other hand, if the prominent swale feature on many of the fairly flat "land" forms he and Raynor did Biarritz holes over here was not a feature on that famous Chasm hole at Le Phare in Biarritz that doesn't necessarily mean, at least not to me, he would've dropped the name.

Mac, I think you need to understand that what Macdonald was actually doing here in America with his so-called "Template" or "model" or "copies" of what he called "classical" holes and architectural features from abroad, I feel both back then and certainly today was in a number of ways really misunderstood.

On the one hand, you have architectural critics today saying he did not copy those holes and features over there accurately enough over here and therefore those holes should not carry the names over here they have over there or that they shouldn't even be called the same kind of hole. On the other hand, some over here criticized him for the entire idea of copying holes or even some of their individual features from abroad over here as anti-creative or anti-innovative or even unnatural.

So ultimately, I think Macdonald was pretty roundly misunderstood by some both back then and still today in what he was actually trying to do over here architecturally. He was only trying to copy important and classic and functional (in play) "architetural principles" and this he explained himself whether or not they might be recognizably from their template counterparts abroad. It seems like a good many back then and today just don't appreciate that as he meant it.

The Biarritz is probably a good example because even if some of the ones he and Raynor did over here looked nothing like that Chasm Hole at Le Phare in Biarritz he obviously felt the architetural PRINCIPLE was somewhat the same, if for instance, he used a deep swale in front of those Biarritz greens to "represent" the much longer carry over the Bay of Biscay in Biarritz.

Macdonald transfered one type of feature, particularly hazard features, for another type of feature all the time and even wrote about it----for example when he used a massive long sand bunker behind his Road Hole greens it was meant to REPRESENT the original ROAD behind the Road Hole at TOC from which the hole concept came.

[Mac Plumart]

Tom...

I think you are entirely correct and that is precisely the feeling I got as I was reading and finishing Scotland's Gift and other research and reading I've done on MacDonald and his courses/holes.

It is nearly impossible to completely duplicate a hole and its features as the land from course to course will not match precisely.  But if you study the idea behind the hole's concept and its greateness, you can attempt to duplicate the feel and/or skills required to conquer it.

Thanks, as always.

[DMoriarty]

Mac, as for CBM's Biarritz concept, there seems to be general agreement that Piping Rock was the first  built by CBM/SR in America.  But that leaves open the question of the first Biarritz in America regardless of who built it, and it looks as if that honor may belong to Merion.

Some argue that Merion's 17th was inspired by CBM's Biarritz concept, while others now argue the opposite lineage -- Merion's 17th inspired CBM's inclusion of the swale or valley in his Biarritz hole.    Whether Merion's 17th was CBM's idea or Merion's 17th gave CBM the idea to add the swale or valley to the biarritz concept, there seems to be an overlapping agreement:  Merion's 17th hole and CBM's conception of the Biarritz hole are directly related. 

So although the hole was not built by CBM or SR, Merion's 17th hole seems to have been the first attempt at creating what became known as CBM's Biarritz concept in America.  After all, if Merion's hole is close enough to the concept to have been CBM's inspiration, then the opposite lineage must be similarly plausible.

As for which direction the lineage actually flowed the answer is pretty obvious but perhaps not relevant when considering whether or not Merion's 17th was indeed revolutionary/groundbreaking. 

[JESII]

David,

I disagree that #17 at Merion has the playing, or visual characteristics of any "Biarritz" I have seen. It doesn't have the first half of a swale. I did ask above if a swale was the key, or if simply having the length and obstacle / chasm to carry was the key and haven't seen an answer from anybody yet.

Is there a hole that anyone calls a "Biarritz" that does not have a swale in front of or on the green?

[TEPaul]

Mac:

Read post #240 very carefully and tell me what you think.

Take the following quotation from post #240, for instance:


"Whether Merion's 17th was CBM's idea or Merion's 17th gave CBM the idea to add the swale or valley to the biarritz concept, there seems to be an overlapping agreement:  Merion's 17th hole and CBM's conception of the Biarritz hole are directly related."  



I'll tell you what I think of that remark and/or its logic or reasoning or even the effective cogency of its argument. It is true that those things may be possible, even likely, but that in no way means they are true. I say that because given the circumstances and the chronology we really do know regarding that hole, there is another or other very real possiblities and even perhaps more likely scenarios behind the 17th hole of Merion East----such as that hole may've been actually essentilly found on the ground pretty much just as it is today and for that reason it may not be a copy or a conceptual copy of anything, let along some so-called "Biarritz swale" concept. It very well may just be a unique and highly interesting pre-existing landform for golf just as it was before used for golf.

We could actually prove that to be the case (or not) if we ever do actually find those topographical (contour line) survey maps of the property the Wilson Committee were using to route and design that course in the winter and spring of 1911 before anything was done to that land and before the golf course was actually constructed and grassed and put into play.

Therefore, for anyone to say there is some kind of agreement or overlapping agreement, whether it was first Wilson or Macdonald who saw that massive dip in front of that green (assuming it was all there preconstruction which again we don't know the answer to) and thought of it as the prominent swale for a biarritz style or concept hole (which again had never been done in America or anywhere else at that time as far as we known) is just not a true statement! It could be but it could also be a false statement given all the circumstances and chronology we know, at this point!

So, to take most of what #240 says or attempts to establish, one can only say it is a fallacy----a fallacy being an error or errors in reasoning!

And this is why some of the things some people, perhaps all of us from time to time, say on here and try to reason and establish on here and convince others of on here can be potentially dangerous or inaccurate and even revisionistic if we are interested in the truth of some of this golf architectural history!  

[Mac Plumart]

As always, it is tough for me to be the ultimate judge but I can say the following with certainty...

Previous to this thread, I was operating under the assumption that a Biarritz green has essentially a "ditch" right on the green going from one side to the other.  If you didn't land on the correct side of that "ditch" you had a wild putt ahead of you.  I played a Biarritz at Lookout Mountain and my friend is taking me to play his course at Yale in the upcoming spring.  He also concludes that a "ditch" is what a Biarritz is all about. 

When the observations about Merion and its 17th green came up and the Valley of Sin, I remember Jim's post/question and I did not see an answer.

A few things have come up in this thread that I was unaware of regarding a Biarritz.  People have mentioned a "carry".  Tom P...I think you mentioned a carry over a Bay.  But again, I thought the "ditch" aspect of the green is what a Biarritz was...not a carry over something.  But, perhaps I am (or was) incorrect.  That is why I am listening and taking notes.  The Biarritz I played didn't have a carry per se...but the way it was set up, a bump and run off the tee wasn't a high probability shot.  Perhaps much like your thoughts on the previous post where you say that they might not have copied a hole identically, but rather copied its intent...this Biarritz had the intent of a foreced carry, but not an acutal carry.

The picture of the green at Merion doesn't look like the Biarritz I am familar with, but that doesn't mean much as to me a "cape" hole plays to a penninsula green that most likely sticks out into water (or sand or something like that)...others on the site disagree somewhat with that.  Perhaps there is disagreement with what makes a Biarritz.

Concerning what was the first Biarriitz in America, I think Daivd said we need verifiable facts.  So, it appears at this time no one can verify that Merion was the first Biarritz in the US or even a Biarritz at all.  But that is simply what it appears like to me and I don't have all the information/data or facts to make definative calls on this one...but it appears no one does on this one.  Except Piping Rock was the first Biarritz CBM constructed in America and, perhaps, Le Phare was the inspiratoin for the Biarritz hole.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jim Sullivan,
If you'll remember back a bit to the recent Essex CCC threads you'll find that their Biarritz had gone unrecognized because there was no apparent swale. 

[JESII]

Thanks Jim, I don't believe I read those threads but will go have a look.

Sounds like the implication then is that the chasm is the key feature in determining a Biarritz, which actually makes sense if the concept was modeled after a shot across an inlet of the Bay of Biscay.

Is it possible that the swale (just the swale) became a replication of the Bay?


By the way, I still think the Valley of Sin must be a remarkably different concept.

[TEPaul]

"A few things have come up in this thread that I was unaware of regarding a Biarritz.  People have mentioned a "carry".  Tom P...I think you mentioned a carry over a Bay.  But again, I thought the "ditch" aspect of the green is what a Biarritz was...not a carry over something.  But, perhaps I am (or was) incorrect.  That is why I am listening and taking notes.  The Biarritz I played didn't have a carry per se...but the way it was set up, a bump and run off the tee wasn't a high probability shot.  Perhaps much like your thoughts on the previous post where you say that they might not have copied a hole identically, but rather copied its intent...this Biarritz had the intent of a foreced carry, but not an acutal carry."


Mac:

Well, to some of your questions above about biarritz holes or biarritz concept holes----there are a few Macdonald/Raynor biarritzes that were done that do have a fairly substantial (100-150 yard) carry over real trouble such as water or something very close to that. The best examples of the latter I'm aware of are Yale, The Creek and Fishers Island. As for the rest I know, have seen and played, such as Westhampton, Piping Rock, Fox Chapel etc, they are basically on pretty flat and uneventful land forms.

However, all of them were ORIGINALLY designed with a considerable amount of fairway section BEFORE the prominent swale (some of them today have greenspace BEFORE the swale but that was apparently never an aspect of their original designs), that is generally on the same basic level as the green behind the prominent swale.

For that reason, it was not only possible but extremely doable strategically to land a lowish trajectory shot in that substantial fairway area before the swale that was basically at the same level as the green behind the swale and run the ball through the swale and up onto the green!

Matter of fact, I mentioned on here some time ago, the so-called "Biarritz shot" that was exactly as I just described above was the very first strategic shot I learned in golf in a clinic of kids with the old Scottish professional, Spence, at Piping Rock GC back in the early 1950s.

The thing about Merion's 17th hole, for various reasons that kind of "biarritz shot" of landing the ball short on the fairway (or now sometimes greenspace) of about the same level as the green behind the swale does not really exist because Merion's 17th just does not have fairway (or greenspace) area before the swale at about the same level as the green behind the swale (that area on Merion's 17th is actually well BELOW the greenspace behind the massive dip in front of Merion's 17th green) as most every other Macdonald/Raynor "Biarritz" hole does. For that reason that biarritz shot is not exactly the same intentional strategic option on Merion's 17th that it is on other biarritz holes. Or if it is I've never seen anyone try it on purpose on Merion's 17th and I've played that hole probably hundreds of times over the last three decades or so.

So there you go, Mac. Does that make some sense to you about why so few have called Merion's 17th a biarritz hole or even a biarritz concept and why it should probably not be considered a biarritz or biarritz concept hole?  

[JESII]

Tom,

Were you in the Essex CC conversations? Jim Kennedy just said there is a swale-less Biarritz there.

[DMoriarty]

David,

I disagree that #17 at Merion has the playing, or visual characteristics of any "Biarritz" I have seen. It doesn't have the first half of a swale. I did ask above if a swale was the key, or if simply having the length and obstacle / chasm to carry was the key and haven't seen an answer from anybody yet.

Is there a hole that anyone calls a "Biarritz" that does not have a swale in front of or on the green?

I am sorry Jim, I thought I answered this but maybe I wasn't clear.  

I am not expert on examples of the Biarritz concept, but I think George Bahto is, and I believe he recently wrote that there were Biarritz holes with very minor swales as well as Biarritz holes without a swale at all, but with a green with a terraced front.   That makes some sense to be because it you read H.J. Whigham's early description of the hole (above) it seems that a large part of the strategic significance of the swale was that it catch drives that were nearly long enough to carry onto the green, but not quite.    Whether the green is fronted by a swale or by a large terrace, this purpose is served.  

My understanding of Merion's original 17th was a very long par 3 at the time, but that it was designed so that a true shot could carry the quarry trouble and then run through the "Valley of Sin" and up onto the green.  A nearly long shot that hit just short of the green would stay in the "Valley of Sin."  Likewise a shot that carried the trouble but that wasn't the right shot would either stay in the "Valley of Sin" or run off line into the various troubles on the sides.  

That seems to capture the "playability" of the CBM biarritz concept pretty well, doesn't it?  If not could you explain why not?

I guess I am having trouble understanding the special significance you seem tp be placing on the tee side slope of the swale.  Perhaps you could explain?    I understand what you are saying about the hole, but I am having trouble understanding how this first "hogsback" or roll is integral to the playability.  
_____________________________________________________
Mac,

1.  The Swale/Dip/Trench/Valley/Hole

Some might disagree but IMO the original conception of the Biarritz contained a swale through the green, but rather that was a concept that was evolved into the hole over the years.  I believe that all of the early descriptions I have read describe the Biarritz-type holes as having a swale or trench or valley or dip or hole just short of the green, so that a shot that is nearly long enough will end up in the swale/valley/dip/hole, and not make it onto the green, while a true running shot might roll up onto the green.    

For example see the description of giving by Whigham, also quoted above:
"There is a Biarritz hole of about 220 yards which is new to this country and is one of the best one-shot holes in existence. There is a hog's back extending to within thirty yards of the green and a dip between the hog's back and the green. Under normal conditions the hole has to be played with what is now known as the push shot, a low ball with plenty of run, which will land short of the dip and run through it on to the green. A drive with a longer carry is apt to land in the dip and stay there. But the push shot must be very straight otherwise it will land on one side or the other of the hog's back and break off into a bunker. This is the ninth hole at Piping Rock.''

Here is a later example, from a 1926 description of Yale:  

Number 9. 225—210—190 yards. Par 3.

Has a water carry of 163 yards from the back tee. The green is guarded by a deep trench across the front; the approach is narrow, flanked by bunkers with water jutting in on the right front. The fairway is Lake Griest. This hole is copied from Biarritz and is the driver hole.

Note that the "green is guarded by a deep trench across the front."   This is the swale. The area in front of the trench is "the approach" which "is narrow, flanked by bunkers with water jutting in on the front right."  

Here is a photo of the hole from the late 1920s, very early on in the course's existence:  
 

Note that while the front section could easily be mistaken for green, it was described as "approach."    (Note also that this area is described as narrow, but it only seems narrow vertically, which we usually call shallow.)

Apparently, judging from the early descriptions the original hole had a hogback or roll which ended short of the green and the land between the end of the hogback and the green must have been the valley or swale.   Apparently the shot was to land the ball on the hogback or roll and run the ball  through the swale/valley/trench/dip/hole and up onto the green.  

2.  The Carry.

The "chasm" hole at Biarritz required a carry over an ocean side "chasm" (go figure?) and again according to George Bahto, the holes based on the Biarritz concept generally also feature some sort of carry, even if that carry is only a bunker set short of the approach area.   Piping Rock has such a bunker, while other Biarritz holes do have a carry over some sort of severe trouble like the lake at Yale.    According to George (and my research agrees with this) the swale is not the chasm.   The chasm feature (even if a bunker) is short of the approach area.  

Think about it from a strategic perspective and in the context of what you know about CBM from his book.    While he appreciated the ground game, he certainly didn't want to see topped balls or putted balls traveling from the tee to the green (see the discussion of his "improvement" of the Eden concept.)  So with his Biarritz's it wasn't as simple as just getting the ball rolling in the right direction,  one had to make the carry and then get the ball rolling, which was an added playability element.    

Again according to George (you can see why I defer to him as the expert on this stuff, he is one!) as the ground game has disappeared, many clubs and courses have removed the bunker representing the chasm, thinking it useless.  

(By the way, I think it possible (but improbable) that the "Biarritz" concept comes from more than one hole at Biarritz but until I figure it out for sure one way or another, it isn't worth going into.)


3.  Merion's Biarritz  

I could have sworn that, over the past few days, we've been told repeatedly that CBM probably got the swale concept from Merion's 17th hole.   Yet now I am described as engaging in fallacious logic for taking this repeated claim at face value?   Go figure?  It is contradictory to claim that Merion's hole was the inspiration for CBM's swales but then deny any connection between the hole and the CBM concept, isn't it?  

Oh well, no matter.  I didn't much figure my suggestion would get much support, even though it is perfectly logical based on the arguments presented over the past couple of days.  

____________________________

ADDED

Jims, i think George said that the Essex swale was barely there.  I think he said other Biarritz's didnot have a swale, but instead a terraced front to the green.  

[TEPaul]

"Tom,

Were you in the Essex CC conversations? Jim Kennedy just said there is a swale-less Biarritz there."


Sully:

No I was not, but if that's the case at Essex it is not the first time I've heard of or seen a swale-less Biarritz hole. I do not think Raynor designed a prominent swale into Mountain Lake's biarritz even if it has one now and as of about five years ago or so after the Brian Silva project on that course.




"Is it possible that the swale (just the swale) became a replication of the Bay?"



Of course it is even if the swale on most flat land biarritzes is generally no more than perhaps ten yards long while the carry on the original Chasm hole in Biarritz France was well over a hundred yard long as are the carries on the aforementioned Biarritzes at Yale, The Creek, and certainly Fishers Island!


"By the way, I still think the Valley of Sin must be a remarkably different concept."


I think it is too as the Valley of Sin at TOC is a depression like most biarritz swales that comes off a fairway of about the same level as the green behind the prominent swale (that is probably not much more than 10-15 yards long) like most all swales on the flat land biarritzes that originally had substantial fairway space before the swale and about at the same level as the green behind the swale.
 

It seems what we might have here from a few of our contributors is an attempt to either so generalize some concept as to make it eventually indistinct or indistinguishable from some other feature or concept! Why would someone try to torture these differing features and concepts into the same concept? I think because it then allows them to sort of pigeonhole these somewhat distinct and differing features and concepts into some single bag and then be able to just assign that feature's or concept's attribution to someone, such as Macdonald. In reality and historically it is all probably so much more varied and frankly interesting than that.