[Jim_Kennedy]

Mac,
The golf course at Biarritz was called 'La Phare' and the concept was derived from the 'Chasm' hole. Reading George Bahto's interviews on this site will help you to get a better understanding of it, and the various configurations CBM/SR used when building one.

Macdonald's description from his ideal golf course:  210 yards. Suggested by the 12th Biarritz, making sharp hogback in middle of course. Stop 30 yards from hole bunkered to the right of green and good low ground to the left of plateau green.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Here is the updated list...

If there are anymore architectural breakthroughs that need to be added, please let me know.


Groundbreaking/Revolutionary Golf Courses


Westward Ho!...1864…first course in England

Mac:

The Royal Blackheath Golf Club was instituted in 1608, so it's the oldest course and club in England and also the oldest golf club in the world.

Dónal.

[Mac Plumart]

Donal...

Thanks!

I suppose I misunderstood...was Westward Ho! the first links course in England?

[DMoriarty]

Mac,
I think the first known example of what we call a Biarritz is at Piping Rock, at least it's the first one that CBM and SR built.

I agree that Piping Rock likely has the first one built by CBM and SR.  But while not built by CBM/SR, the 17th at Merion East fits the Biarritz conceptually.  Given CBM's and HJW's extensive involvement in planning Merion, this hole may be the first attempt at representing CBM's concept in the US.

[JESII]

David,

Am I reading too much into the characteristics of a Biarritz in thinking there is supposed to be a short (or down) side of the swale? #17 at Merion only has an incline, and only goes across half the green.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Mac

Yes I believe Westward Ho was circa 1860-64 although the Gossops played upon a rough course with just a few hole pre 1860. In 1860 the Rev Gossop asked Old Tom who was at Prestwick to come and design a full course. This he did and returned in 1864 to modify it when the club was formed. His first visit was when he worked at Prestwick and through a club member first supplied clubs and balls to the Gossops then was asked down a couple of years later to design the course.  Blackheath was the only other course open at that time but in the London area.

Melvyn

PS Hoylake was the next one but that was in 1869 and by Old Tom's older brother George Morris & Chambers

[Jim_Kennedy]

David,
I see what you mean.

[TEPaul]

"Mac,
The golf course at Biarritz was called 'La Phare' and the concept was derived from the 'Chasm' hole. Reading George Bahto's interviews on this site will help you to get a better understanding of it, and the various configurations CBM/SR used when building one.

Macdonald's description from his ideal golf course:  210 yards. Suggested by the 12th Biarritz, making sharp hogback in middle of course. Stop 30 yards from hole bunkered to the right of green and good low ground to the left of plateau green."


JimK:

I'm glad you mentioned that. I know we have been all through this entire biarritz subject on here in the past but there seems to always be some ongoing mystery involved somehow.

I did a lot of research on this once but forget some of the aspects of it now. Macdonald did mention the 12th hole on the Dunn course at Biarritz France with its famous "Chasm" hole (where Vanderbilt met both golf and Dunn) but it seems most people say that Chasm hole was the 3rd at the Dunn Biarritz course. Either that club flipped their nines at some point or resequenced their holes or else this biarritz concept CBM referred to as the 12th may be another hole on that course or perhaps even some composite concept of two holes there including the Chasm hole and another (perhaps with a hogsback and a swale in it?).

This entire biarritz template model and concept really is quite the architecture etymological mystery!

PS:
For the record on Merion, it seems if the 17th hole was ever referred to as some architectural concept from abroad it was that Wilson picked up the "Valley of Sin" idea on TOC's 18th and used essentially the same concept for the valley/swale iteration in the front of Merion's 17th which is both fairway area and greenspace. I guess one always interesting question is if TOC's "Valley of Sin" is where CBM got the idea for the swale in the biarritz green. George Bahto, for one, seems to suspect that may be the case.

Also, for the actual verifiable FACT of CBM's and HJW's 'extensive' involvement in the planning of Merion East's course and routing, the only actual date that can be verifiably established was April 6, 1911 after the Wilson Committee had spent a number of months (that included a two day trip to NGLA in early March that was explained in their committee report to the MCC board to go over Macdonald's plans for that course and the course itself the next day which BTW never had a biarritz) with various course iterations in the winter and early spring of 1911. Of course, anyone can speculate that their actual involvement with Merion's routing and design was more than that but the fact is there is nothing at all that has ever been produced to verifiably establish that fact!  

[Matt MacIver]

Pinehurst…1907…a great and historical golf resort…known for its shell-backed greens

Bandon Dunes Complex…1999…First “built it and they will come” resort
 
As always, thoughts, critiques, comments are welcome.

While I love Bandon Dunes, I think the Tufts could be credited with the first "build-it/come".  The Sandhills of NC were pretty remote a century ago.

[DMoriarty]

David,

Am I reading too much into the characteristics of a Biarritz in thinking there is supposed to be a short (or down) side of the swale? #17 at Merion only has an incline, and only goes across half the green.

Jim, not sure I understand your question.  Some of the similarities with the concept are the distance of the hole, the carry over the chasm (in this case the quarry,) the elevation change from tee to green (like the original hole,) and perhaps most importantly the playable "valley of sin" type swale immediately short of the hole.   Merion legend has it that the swale was based on the Valley of Sin, but Wilson had never seen the Valley of Sin when he built the hole.   [Without digging back into my research I'm not certain, but I think that this was one of the greens which was rebuilt early because of drainage issues, but as near as I can tell from photos and descriptions, the large swale short of the green was always there, although it isn't clear whether it was then part of the green.]

Bahto has long contended that the swale on the Biarritz may actually be representative of the Valley of Sin, so the references in the Merion Legend to this being Merion's Valley of Sin certainly make sense.  In the end we have a long par three (probably not even reachable for many at the time) over a quarry with a swale just short of the green that is presumably there so that one can run the ball up onto the green.    Now normally one might think that this is just a coincidence, but given CBM's extensive involvement in planning the course and the fact that he chose the final layout plan, and given that this is a course with numerous holes and features utilizing CBM-type principles, it is hardly a stretch. 

As for whether or not the similarities are exact, why would they be?   CBM and/or Raynor didn't build the hole, and there was no model at NGLA for Wilson to try and approximate.  Hugh Wilson built the hole, so it looks like a Hugh Wilson hole, not a Raynor hole.  But conceptually, its a Biarritz, and may be closer to the original conception than many of the later ones by Seth.

Here is the photo posted by Jim Kennedy, above.   Try to forget it is Merion.  If you walked onto this hole on a CBM course, what hole would you think it was? 

[TEPaul]

I have never thought of this before but given all the foregoing chronological information perhaps Macdonald actually got the idea for a massive swale in front of a par 3 green when he arrived in Philadelphia for his one day visit on April 6, 1911 to go over the five plans for Merion East that Wilson and his committee had been working on and developing all winter and spring of 1911.

At least we do know that previous to this Macdonald/Raynor had never done a so-called Biarritz hole with a massive swale at its front before the spring of 1911.

Therefore perhaps the original idea and concept for a biarritz swale (viz CBM/Seth Raynor's first biarritz at Piping Rock shortly to come) should be assigned to Wilson and his MCC routing and design committee. Given all the foregoing information it certainly seems worth some serious consideration!

[Jim_Kennedy]

"Bahto has long contended that the swale on the Biarritz may actually be representative of the Valley of Sin, so the references in the Merion Legend to this being Merion's Valley of Sin certainly make sense.  In the end we have a long par three (probably not even reachable for many at the time) over a quarry with a swale just short of the green that is presumably there so that one can run the ball up onto the green.    Now normally one might think that this is just a coincidence, but given CBM's extensive involvement in planning the course and the fact that he chose the final layout plan, and given that this is a course with numerous holes and features utilizing CBM-type principles, it is hardly a stretch." -DMoriarty 

I'm unclear about the timelines, but if CBM didn't have the place to build one at NGLA yet saw the near perfect ground at MCC, wouldn't it be possible that he'd gladly give the idea to Wilson and his committee? 

[TEPaul]

"I'm unclear about the timelines, but if CBM didn't have the place to build one at NGLA yet saw the near perfect ground at MCC, wouldn't it be possible that he'd gladly give the idea to Wilson and his committee?"


Sure it's possible; practically anything is possible if one wants to use a completely unfettered imagination with none to very little supplemental evidence to derive it from or back it up.

But guess what else is not just possible but logically a whole lot more likely given what we actually have from the contemporaneous records of MCC? 

Consider for a moment not just the possiblity of the scenario of post #209 but the possibility of the scenario of post #210. I realize that may be very difficult for you to do but you should try it anyway. 
 
 
 

[DMoriarty]

"Bahto has long contended that the swale on the Biarritz may actually be representative of the Valley of Sin, so the references in the Merion Legend to this being Merion's Valley of Sin certainly make sense.  In the end we have a long par three (probably not even reachable for many at the time) over a quarry with a swale just short of the green that is presumably there so that one can run the ball up onto the green.    Now normally one might think that this is just a coincidence, but given CBM's extensive involvement in planning the course and the fact that he chose the final layout plan, and given that this is a course with numerous holes and features utilizing CBM-type principles, it is hardly a stretch." -DMoriarty 

I'm unclear about the timelines, but if CBM didn't have the place to build one at NGLA yet saw the near perfect ground at MCC, wouldn't it be possible that he'd gladly give the idea to Wilson and his committee? 

It is more than possible.  This wasn't a new idea by CBM-- he had already written about it in 1906, and that description matches Merion's 17th rather well.   And it is hard to imagine that he and Whigham (who was also familiar with the Biarritz in France) were not excited to see a perfect spot for the hole when they first inspected the Ardmore property in summer of 1910.

[TEPaul]

As Tom MacWood is apt to say on here----that's some interesting speculation but complete speculation nonetheless. Thankfully Merion GC does not get into that kind of speculation in the presentation of its architectural history-----the august Herbert Warren Wind's comment excluded of course!   

[Jim_Kennedy]

DM,
Thanks for clearing that up. I had the idea that no self respecting evangelist could pass up a chance to proselytize his faith, as it were, and the timeline surely fits. Highly possible, if not probable.

Consider for a moment not just the possiblity of the scenario of post #209 but the possibility of the scenario of post #210. I realize that may be very difficult for you to do but you should try it anyway.  -TEPaul

I did consider them, that's why I asked the question in post #211, but your attitude in the above reply surely doesn't aid your cause.

[JESII]

David,

I am not fluent in the characteristics required for any of these concept holes, but I thought the Valley of Sin was a Concept and the Biarritz was another distinct Concept. I believe their playing characteristics were certainly distinct, no?

[Mac Plumart]

Okay...I read the George Bahto interviews on this site.  I have cut and pasted the following bits of information concerning the Biarritz...


its origin came from a course in France built in the late 1800’s

Its background stems from the ‘Chasm’ hole (#3) at the original Willie Dunn course at Biarritz

So, wouldn't it be accurate to state that the Biarritz hole was developed by Willie Dunn on the golf course located in Biarritz, which I believe is named La Phare?

MacDonald, Raynor, etc simply applied this concept to other courses...I believe Mr. Bahto mentions the Lido, and, in fact, every other MacDonald/Raynor course with the exception of NGLA.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks.

[DMoriarty]

David,

I am not fluent in the characteristics required for any of these concept holes, but I thought the Valley of Sin was a Concept and the Biarritz was another distinct Concept. I believe their playing characteristics were certainly distinct, no?

Many of CBM's holes are applications of a multiple fundamental strategic concepts as they fit.  Combining two (or more) concepts into one hole is right up his alley.  

Not sure what you mean by "their playing characteristics certainly distinct."  A swale in front of a green is a terrific strategic tool in cases where the ground game might be an option, because it puts high demands on both the ground shot and on the aerial shot.   A ground shot must be running true to make it through the swale without stopping or veering, and aerial shot must clear the entire thing else be stuck in the swale.   While the Valley of Sin is located on a par 4, it seems to create the same issue, even on much shorter approaches.  If you are going to run through it, you'd better be true, and if you are going to carry it you'd better carry all of it.  I

I think this possibility of getting stuck in a swale is a bigger factor in the concept of the biarritz than we commonly consider.   It acts as a false front, where balls that are "nearly good" are not good enough.  Making those "nearly good" shots pay a toll is one of the key elements to CBM's conception of strategy.

Whigham:
"There is a Biarritz hole of about 220 yards which is new to this country and is one of the best one-shot holes in existence. There is a hog's back extending to within thirty yards of the green and a dip between the hog's back and the green. Under normal conditions the hole has to be played with what is now known as the push shot, a low ball with plenty of run, which will land short of the dip and run through it on to the green. A drive with a longer carry is apt to land in the dip and stay there. But the push shot must be very straight otherwise it will land on one side or the other of the hog's back and break off into a bunker. This is the ninth hole at Piping Rock.''
____________________________
Mac

The chasm hole definitely existed before CBM built one, and that was his influence and he applied the concept to courses in America.  The same goes for most of the concepts he applied.  

[JESII]

David,

Isn't the primary function of the Valley of Sin to suggest a tee shot along the fence line for center and left pins?

The other playability distinction is the length of approach. A 220 shot is wholly different than whatever is left into #18 at TOC. Being in the Valley at Merion is better than 95% of the results.

[TEPaul]

Mac:

The confusion with the architectural etymology of the biarritz hole, as interpreted and created in America by CBM/Raynor, is not much akin to that famous "Chasm" hole in Biarritz, France with the exception of say Fishers Island's iteration or perhaps Yale's to a lesser extent. And the doubly confusing factor is no one has ever been sure if that Chasm hole in Biarritz had any kind of massive swale in it or in front of it. So for many years most of us have been speculating about where Macdonald got the idea for that massive swale in front of the biarritzes that were done over here.

Some of us thought it may've come from the 16th green of North Berwick that Macdonald first saw in 1906 but now Sean Arble assures us that swale at NB may not have been in that green in 1906.

Others have speculated that the swale idea for the biarritz may've come from the massive swale at the front of TOC's #18 famously known as "The Valley of Sin."

Given the way Macdonald described the look of the biarritz hole in France as the #12 which mentioned a hogsback (The Chasm hole was the 3rd unless they flipped the nines or resequenced the course at some point) leads me to wonder if there wasn't another hole other than the famous Chasm hole (over the Bay of Biscay) at Le Phare that may've had a big swale in it, perhaps on a big hogsback plateaued green.

[DMoriarty]

David,

Isn't the primary function of the Valley of Sin to suggest a tee shot along the fence line for center and left pins?

The other playability distinction is the length of approach. A 220 shot is wholly different than whatever is left into #18 at TOC. Being in the Valley at Merion is better than 95% of the results.

There are certainly differences, but I think there are similarities as well.  And the application of these things was not as formulaic as you seem to think.  If CBM liked the Valley of Sin concept but thought it would work best on a long par 3, then why wouldn't he use it?  In fact he did, didn't he?  As for the Valley of Sin's "function" depends upon where you are on the golf course doesn't it?    As I understand it, from the tee your description might be right on for most, but on approach the "function" is going to depend upon how directly or indirectly the valley encroaches on your line.   On most par threes (the redan being one exception) trouble between the tee and green must be more directly confronted.

It could well be that the Chasm had a similar feature just short of its green and, knowing how well it worked at TOC, CBM kept it with the concept.  But the conception of the hole had a valley or swale short of the green, and the shorter golfer could run through it and up onto the green, while the longer hitter who was just short might end up staying in the swale.   Wouldn't you agree that this is precisely the case at Merion?   

Most of the accounts I have read about Merion's hole indicate that the inspiration from the hole is from the Valley of Sin.  Would you have doubted this before I made the connection to CBM?   Or are you doubting that CBM would ever have considered using something akin to the Valley of Sin front of a long par three?   

[JESII]

David,

I'm looking for a distinction between a Biarritz and Valley of Sin concepts.

[DMoriarty]

Jim,  the Valley of Sin is a feature while the Biarritz concept is generally considered to be an entire golf hole, so I am not sure they are comparable.   The Biarritz concept calls for a long par three (could be 220 yards) generally over some sort of trouble (preferably a giant chasm or a quarry, but sometimes a bunker will do) ending around 30 yards from the putting surface, then usually a swale or small valley in front of the putting surface, so that a ball carrying just short of the green will likely stay in the swale, but a running shot, if true, might make it through.

The swale or valley may or may not have been inspired by the Valley of Sin feature on TOC 18, but whatever its origins, its functionality is described above. 

[JESII]

Does the Biarritz concept require the swale or is it really just the long par three over some sort of chasm? I hac always thought the swale was the key factor in a Biarritz but you seem to say not. #17 at Merion certainly doesn't have a swale...much closer in appearance and function to the Valley of Sin other than my understanding that positioning was vital to the value.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()