Playing JF Abercromby's entire portfolio

[BCrosby]

The Addington was Abercromby's Pinehurst #2 - he tinkered with it for all his life and kept redoing things. For that reason it probably represents his ideas more closely than any other course.

Ulrich

Are we talking about The Add Old or the NLE New?

Bob

[Sean_A]

Paul

An ad is self explanatory - it is designed to tell a story from one angle.  The Bernardo piece mentions Colt as an advisor.  The Alison piece mentions Colt as the main man with Aber as a construction boss.  Combine these three pieces of evidence with Aber's long time association with the club and the designation of credit doesn't strike me as so clear as Tommy Mac makes out.  That said, I think Colt was involved in more stuff thasn we really know about so it wouldn't surprsie me to find out Colt was the man at least when the design was on paper.

Ciao   

This is what I wrote: "Addington Old was done with Colt." Any way you want to cut it clearly Colt collaborated with Abercromby at Addington.

Tommy Mac

Where I am going is what is the ground today.  I doesn't much matter if Colt designed a bunch of stuff that doesn't exist - does it?  This is why I am looking for specifics.  IMO, without specifics, it is hard to call Addington a Colt.  This could be a case like Rye. Folks talking as if it is a Colt course when it is nothing of the sort.

Ciao   

[Tom MacWood]

Sean
Come on. Aren't you the same person who is always giving OTM credit? Has Addington changed dramatically since Abercromby and Colt laid the course out in 1914?

[Sean_A]

Sean
Come on. Aren't you the same person who is always giving OTM credit? Has Addington changed dramatically since Abercromby and Colt laid the course out in 1914?

Tommy Mac

I try to give credit where credit is due. 

I don't know what Aber did and what Colt did.  This is the first I have heard of Colt designing Addington.   I was hoping you would have more details.  Its an intriguing prospect and even though much of the course doesn't feel Colt-like to me (there are several more penal holes than Colt generally designs), the course is early enough that Colt may have still been playing around with ideas plus Colt was want to throw in the odd strange hole (for him) here and there. 

Ciao     

[Scott Warren]

Shit eh, looks like the course that got me all drunk on Aber wasn't even designed by him!

[Tom MacWood]

This article is from 11/30/1922. The club website says the course dates from 1904 and was designed by Cuthbert Butchart.

[Scott Warren]

How much store do you put in a journo who couldn't even spell the designer's name correctly?

[Tom MacWood]

Are you certain Abercromby is the correct spelling?

[Scott Warren]

All the authoritative literature seems to use that spelling...

Interestingly. he is persona non grata on English wikipedia, but I found this on the Germqan version and translated it:

JF Abercromby was born the son of a physician and practiced at an early age the game of golf. He brought it up to the scratch golfer (Handicap 0) and played successfully in tournaments around London. "Aber," as he was nicknamed, was among the group of well-known amateur golfers who Willie Park Jr. win as a member of his own place in Huntercombe could, which was an important nucleus for the development of golf architecture. Around the turn hired him also an investor in a private and asked him a few years later with the construction of a place in the style of Sunningdale, Walton Heath and Woking.

Since Abercromby had no practical experience in golf course construction, he had initially advised by Willie Park Jnr. Subsequently, however, he took on himself the responsibility for the heath land course of Worplesdon, which could be opened 1908th This success gave the team a second major contract (Coombe Hill, 1909), where Abercromby ascended in a balloon to find the best routing through a forest.[1] He was probably the first, looking at the prospect the disposal site, the perspective from above - a process that is now one of the standard repertoire of a golf architect.

As a result, he raised, like Willie Park Jr. earlier in Huntercombe, a separate project from the christening: The Addington (1912), which is now considered his best place. For many years he acted as a "benevolent dictator" of the club and improved the place continuously. Moreover, he added a second place, the New Course, however, no longer exists.

After World War I teamed up with Abercromby Herbert Fowler and Tom Simpson together, but only Knole Park (1924), the Old Course can of Bovey Castle (1926) and Mill Hill (1927) are securely attributed to him. Despite this, compared to other golf architect Abercromby low productivity is one of the most important representatives of the golden age, as it the new style with his early work decisively influenced.

[Tom MacWood]

Based on my research its not 50/50, but I'd say about 33% of the time his name is spelled Abercrombie. Certainly he went by Abercromby most of his life, although the earliest record I have of him (the 1881 Census) his family spelled the name with an 'ie'.

[Paul_Turner]

Paul

An ad is self explanatory - it is designed to tell a story from one angle.  The Bernardo piece mentions Colt as an advisor.  The Alison piece mentions Colt as the main man with Aber as a construction boss.  Combine these three pieces of evidence with Aber's long time association with the club and the designation of credit doesn't strike me as so clear as Tommy Mac makes out.  That said, I think Colt was involved in more stuff thasn we really know about so it wouldn't surprsie me to find out Colt was the man at least when the design was on paper.

Ciao  

This is what I wrote: "Addington Old was done with Colt." Any way you want to cut it clearly Colt collaborated with Abercromby at Addington.

Tommy Mac

Where I am going is what is the ground today.  I doesn't much matter if Colt designed a bunch of stuff that doesn't exist - does it?  This is why I am looking for specifics.  IMO, without specifics, it is hard to call Addington a Colt.  This could be a case like Rye. Folks talking as if it is a Colt course when it is nothing of the sort.

Ciao  

Sean

Addington is nothing like Rye.  Addington today is much like it was in 1914.  We have photos, posted here, to prove it and Darwin's description too.

Addington actually feels very much like a Colt course and attacks the ravines similarly to Meyrick and Brancepeth.

[Christoph Meister]

All the authoritative literature seems to use that spelling...

Interestingly. he is persona non grata on English wikipedia, but I found this on the Germqan version and translated it:

JF Abercromby was born the son of a physician and practiced at an early age the game of golf. He brought it up to the scratch golfer (Handicap 0) and played successfully in tournaments around London. "Aber," as he was nicknamed, was among the group of well-known amateur golfers who Willie Park Jr. win as a member of his own place in Huntercombe could, which was an important nucleus for the development of golf architecture. Around the turn hired him also an investor in a private and asked him a few years later with the construction of a place in the style of Sunningdale, Walton Heath and Woking.

Since Abercromby had no practical experience in golf course construction, he had initially advised by Willie Park Jnr. Subsequently, however, he took on himself the responsibility for the heath land course of Worplesdon, which could be opened 1908th This success gave the team a second major contract (Coombe Hill, 1909), where Abercromby ascended in a balloon to find the best routing through a forest.[1] He was probably the first, looking at the prospect the disposal site, the perspective from above - a process that is now one of the standard repertoire of a golf architect.

As a result, he raised, like Willie Park Jr. earlier in Huntercombe, a separate project from the christening: The Addington (1912), which is now considered his best place. For many years he acted as a "benevolent dictator" of the club and improved the place continuously. Moreover, he added a second place, the New Course, however, no longer exists.

After World War I teamed up with Abercromby Herbert Fowler and Tom Simpson together, but only Knole Park (1924), the Old Course can of Bovey Castle (1926) and Mill Hill (1927) are securely attributed to him. Despite this, compared to other golf architect Abercromby low productivity is one of the most important representatives of the golden age, as it the new style with his early work decisively influenced.

Well done! You are translating what I would think is Ulrich Mayring's text into English - I wonder where Ulrich Mayring has got this information from....

[Mark_Rowlinson]

You could always opt for playing the entire oeuvre of James Francis Markes - only one course, Sandy Lodge. Not a bad effort for a man who hadn't designed a course before, not on a par with Walton Heath or Alwoodley perhaps but at least as good as Worplesdon to name a few other first attempts from around this time. (Yes, he had advice from Harry Vardon, but it seems to be pretty well all Markes's work, including the routing and certainly the day-to-day construction, drainage, grass strains etc).

Tom MacWood, if you are reading this, this does represent a reverse in my opinion from a correspondence between us on here some years ago, but I've now seen more stuff in the SLGC archive. You asked back then when the 18th hole was changed. In 1968 Ken Cotton was called in to advise on the hole and he drew up plans for modification, but the committee decided not to go ahead with this. So far as we know Cotton's plans were never implemented. In which case the alterations to the hole were made in 2000, when a a slightly gentler slope with a step in it was introduced.

Incidentally, when the club hosted the 1938 Penfold Matchplay Tournament two holes from the relief course were used as the final two holes, with the aforementioned 18th being played as the 16th.

[Tom MacWood]

Mark
Thanks for the report on Sandy Lodge.

[Neil_Crafter]

To my knowledge, Darwin was very rarely, if ever wrong about a design attribution. After all, he knew all these fellows personally and made it his business to keep in touch with them as a golf journalist to know what was going on course construction wise.

I don't doubt the spelling thing with Abercrombie vs Abercromby. As an example of this, I always wondered why here in Australian period newspapers you would quite often see Alex Russell and Alec Russell, even sometimes Alick Russell. Until I interviewed his son and found out that his first name was pronounced with a hard ending, like a hard 'c', did the penny drop as to why the other spellings were the way they were.

[Adam Lawrence]

Neil - I think the Alex/Alec thing is pretty standard Scottish usage. The manager of Manchester United is 'Sir Alex' in writing and in English pronounciation but you often hear him referred to as 'Alec' by fellow Scots.

[Sean_A]

Paul

An ad is self explanatory - it is designed to tell a story from one angle.  The Bernardo piece mentions Colt as an advisor.  The Alison piece mentions Colt as the main man with Aber as a construction boss.  Combine these three pieces of evidence with Aber's long time association with the club and the designation of credit doesn't strike me as so clear as Tommy Mac makes out.  That said, I think Colt was involved in more stuff thasn we really know about so it wouldn't surprsie me to find out Colt was the man at least when the design was on paper.

Ciao  

This is what I wrote: "Addington Old was done with Colt." Any way you want to cut it clearly Colt collaborated with Abercromby at Addington.

Tommy Mac

Where I am going is what is the ground today.  I doesn't much matter if Colt designed a bunch of stuff that doesn't exist - does it?  This is why I am looking for specifics.  IMO, without specifics, it is hard to call Addington a Colt.  This could be a case like Rye. Folks talking as if it is a Colt course when it is nothing of the sort.

Ciao  

Sean

Addington is nothing like Rye.  Addington today is much like it was in 1914.  We have photos, posted here, to prove it and Darwin's description too.

Addington actually feels very much like a Colt course and attacks the ravines similarly to Meyrick and Brancepeth.

Sorry Paul, just saw this post.  I would say look at the greens.  If these are Colt greens they are quite different from his norm.  That said, looking at the surrounds, they could be Colt's.  Mind you, perhaps Franks Bros were sort of responsible for that particular look. Did they have anything to do with Addington?

BTW - I didn't mean that Addington had been altered a ton like Rye, more that myth and legend attributes Rye to Colt and I was wondering if this is the same with Addington.

Ciao

[Niall C]

Neil - I think the Alex/Alec thing is pretty standard Scottish usage. The manager of Manchester United is 'Sir Alex' in writing and in English pronounciation but you often hear him referred to as 'Alec' by fellow Scots.

Adam

Correct. It usually also an abbreviation for Alexander as is Sandy and Eck so if its not on the birth certificate it ain't written in stone.

Niall

[Scott Warren]

I played Mill Hill yeaterday. Not in the league of The Addington, but I could feel Aber's DNA. Not sure if that was due to me looking hard for it, but in any case, it was interesting.

I've had a few attempts to get to Worplesdon aborted at the last minute, but I must do it soon, and with Knole park charging only £55 for a day ticket I will have to get there over summer also.

Some pics of the highlightsd at Mill Hill (I have the whole course, but haven't downloaded them all yet):

The 5th green is the start of the really good golf, the putting surface hidden from view as you approach over a diagonal valley that grabs anything short and funnels it away to the left


Hugging the creek and flying the bunker pays dividends at the 7th, which is much easier to approach from the right, with anything driven safely left having to contend with the large left-hand greenside trap. The bunker visible short-right of the green is a good 30 yards short of the putting surface


Perhaps the best shot on the course is the second to the 13th, with the bold pulpit green rejecting anything short and sending it either into a bunker or back 20 yards or more down the steep fairway

[michael damico]

I am looking into writings/scribblings of Aber and can only find some articles in Hawtree's "Aspect of Golf Course Architecture".

Can anyone help me with anymore knowledge on this subject?