Playing JF Abercromby's entire portfolio

[Scott Warren]

I was thinking of that. Have you played Littlestone? That and RSG would give you Purves' entire portfolio, wouldn't it?

[Paul_Turner]

Scott

From memory, the club moved to its current location in Downe and Colt did it, so perhaps the original 18 was Fowler's/Aber's?  Colt lists "Downe" as an original design in his ads and  Darwin wrote a neat handbook on the course and confirms it's Colt's.

[Mark Chaplin]

Scott yes so that's 2 designers!!

You doing the London dinner next week at the Caledonian Club??

[Ulrich Mayring]

Addington Old was done with Colt. Worplesdon and Coombe Hill I believe were both done with Willie Park-Jr.

It is often overlooked that J. F. Abercromby was the 4th man out of the gate in the Golden Age, after Willie Park Jr., Harry Colt and Herbert Fowler. It is true that he consulted with Willie Park Jr. on his first two courses, but he retained responsibility for the overall projects. So in my eyes Worplesdon and Coombe Hill should be attributed to him as lead designer and Park gets Co-Credit.

Ulrich

[Scott Warren]

You doing the London dinner next week at the Caledonian Club??

No, I'm not, unfortunately.

[Tom MacWood]

Addington Old was done with Colt.

Tommy Mac

Do you have any evidence of this?  I can recall someone posting words of Darwin to the effect that Burnham's 17th was an Alison design when it is quite clearly not the case. Alison may well well have overseen construction, but to Colt's plans.  I guess my point is you can't always trust what these big whigs wrote - especially when the subject is vague.  Anyway - do you have evidence that Colt designed 9 holes at Addington?  This would be a most remarkable turn of events.

Paul

I too am skeptical about the New being better than the Old.  Is it possible that the Old only had 9 holes when the New was built?

Ciao

[Andrew Mitchell]

I was thinking of that. Have you played Littlestone? That and RSG would give you Purves' entire portfolio, wouldn't it?

Crikey I've done that!

I'm still trying to play all MacKenzie's courses in Yorkshire.

[Tom_Doak]

Bovey Castle was once known as the Manor House Hotel ... which I visited in December 1982 and reviewed in The Confidential Guide.  It only got a 3 back then, as Mark Pearce speculated it might.  I'm sure the conditioning has much improved with the new ownership, I don't know about the architecture; my review was pretty much the same as Mark's.

I think your idea of seeing other Abercromby courses is a major plus and I would be very interested to hear about them.  It brings to mind Robert Hunter's preface to THE LINKS:

"How pleasant it would be to take from our shelves a book of Abercromby's courses and to study at one's leisure his ingenious and delightful art, as we have seen it, or someday hope to see it, at Worplesdon, Combe [sic] Hill, and Addington!"

[Paul_Turner]

Sean

No Addington Old was always 18 holes.

Here's an article, by Alison, on London courses with some great pics, including Addington.  Alison has colt designing it and Aber building it:

[Sean_A]

Addington Old was done with Colt.

Tommy Mac

Do you have any evidence of this?  I can recall someone posting words of Darwin to the effect that Burnham's 17th was an Alison design when it is quite clearly not the case. Alison may well well have overseen construction, but to Colt's plans.  I guess my point is you can't always trust what these big whigs wrote - especially when the subject is vague.  Anyway - do you have evidence that Colt designed 9 holes at Addington?  This would be a most remarkable turn of events.

Paul

I too am skeptical about the New being better than the Old.  Is it possible that the Old only had 9 holes when the New was built?

Ciao

Tommy Mac

Thanks.  I have seen both those article.  The question is, which 9 did Colt consult on?  Or did he consult on one 9 and build design the other?  Or did he do either or both on the New? 

Paul

I just went looking for this article - thanks for saving me the bother.  Alison claims a different scenario altogether and he is very specific.  Do you have other stuff to back up this claim?  How much influence do you reckon Aber had before, during and after construction?  I don't recall ever seeing other Aber courses to make a comparison as to some of the severity to Addington - because it does seem more severe than the "normal" Colts. Something is certainly different about Addington which makes it stand out as odd for a Colt course.   

Ciao

[Paul_Turner]

Sean

what do you think of the Alison article above where he credits Colt with the design?

[Tom MacWood]

Paul is right the current West Kent (Downe) is Colt. The original course was at Bickley, and I'm not sure what happened to it or when they moved to Downe. The course at Downe was at one time called Downe GC.

[Paul_Turner]

Addington Old was done with Colt.

Tommy Mac

Do you have any evidence of this?  I can recall someone posting words of Darwin to the effect that Burnham's 17th was an Alison design when it is quite clearly not the case. Alison may well well have overseen construction, but to Colt's plans.  I guess my point is you can't always trust what these big whigs wrote - especially when the subject is vague.  Anyway - do you have evidence that Colt designed 9 holes at Addington?  This would be a most remarkable turn of events.

Paul

I too am skeptical about the New being better than the Old.  Is it possible that the Old only had 9 holes when the New was built?

Ciao

Tommy Mac

Thanks.  I have seen both those articles and they don't convince me.  In fact, the "consulting" role sounds more like it.  The question is, which 9 did Colt consult on?  Or did he consult on one 9 and build design the other?  Or did he do either or both on the New?  

Ciao

Sean

Why 9 holes?

There were 36 holes.  18 for Old (Aber/Colt) and 18 for New (Aber+?).

[Tom MacWood]

Sean
I wrote: "Addington Old was done with Colt." You have a problem with that? Who said anything about nine holes?

[Sean_A]

Addington Old was done with Colt.

Tommy Mac

Do you have any evidence of this?  I can recall someone posting words of Darwin to the effect that Burnham's 17th was an Alison design when it is quite clearly not the case. Alison may well well have overseen construction, but to Colt's plans.  I guess my point is you can't always trust what these big whigs wrote - especially when the subject is vague.  Anyway - do you have evidence that Colt designed 9 holes at Addington?  This would be a most remarkable turn of events.

Paul

I too am skeptical about the New being better than the Old.  Is it possible that the Old only had 9 holes when the New was built?

Ciao

Tommy Mac

Thanks.  I have seen both those articles and they don't convince me.  In fact, the "consulting" role sounds more like it.  The question is, which 9 did Colt consult on?  Or did he consult on one 9 and build design the other?  Or did he do either or both on the New?  

Ciao

Sean

Why 9 holes?

There were 36 holes.  18 for Old (Aber/Colt) and 18 for New (Aber+?).

The Times article pasted above mentions 9 Aber holes and 9 Colt holes, but it isn't specific to which nines or even which course.

Paul - I take all advetisements with a grain of salt, but it is still intriguing.   

Ciao

[Tom MacWood]

Those articles refer to Hilversum.

[Sean_A]

Those articles refer to Hilversum.

Tommy Mac - ooops, right you are.

Has anybody done any investigating with club records?

Ciao

[Paul_Turner]

Sean

Why would you take the, ads, newspaper article and magazine article with a grain of salt.  Is there compelling evidence that it's an Abercromby solo design?

[Sean_A]

Paul

An ad is self explanatory - it is designed to tell a story from one angle.  The Bernardo piece mentions Colt as an advisor.  The Alison piece mentions Colt as the main man with Aber as a construction boss.  Combine these three pieces of evidence with Aber's long time association with the club and the designation of credit doesn't strike me as so clear as Tommy Mac makes out.  That said, I think Colt was involved in more stuff than we really know about so it wouldn't surprise me to find out Colt was the man at least when the design was on paper.

Ciao   

[BCrosby]

If the Old is some combination of Colt and Aber, is it clear that the New was all Aber?

My recollection is that Tom Simpson thought very highly of the New, but I don't remember where I saw it.

Bob

[Tom MacWood]

Paul

An ad is self explanatory - it is designed to tell a story from one angle.  The Bernardo piece mentions Colt as an advisor.  The Alison piece mentions Colt as the main man with Aber as a construction boss.  Combine these three pieces of evidence with Aber's long time association with the club and the designation of credit doesn't strike me as so clear as Tommy Mac makes out.  That said, I think Colt was involved in more stuff thasn we really know about so it wouldn't surprsie me to find out Colt was the man at least when the design was on paper.

Ciao   

This is what I wrote: "Addington Old was done with Colt." Any way you want to cut it clearly Colt collaborated with Abercromby at Addington.

[Scott Warren]

Tom,

You mentioned Aber did 9 and Colt did 9 at The Addington. Can you elaborate on that?

[Tom MacWood]

Sean mentioned the nines, but he had confused two articles referring to Hilversum with Addington.

[Scott Warren]

Aha! My bad. I also thought they were about The Add!

[Ulrich Mayring]

The Addington was Abercromby's Pinehurst #2 - he tinkered with it for all his life and kept redoing things. For that reason it probably represents his ideas more closely than any other course.

Ulrich