Pacific Dunes vs Aiken GC

[Sean_A]

  No way these two courses leave you feeling the same way. The isolation at PD is superior. The surroundings with the ocean is uncomparable. And the quality of of design is not matched. The only aspect that Aiken wins is price. People travel across the country to play Pac. It never gets old.

  Anthony

 

I thought the railroad tracks were a wonderful feature.  I loved the way they started below, then at grade level, then back way below as the topography changed during those first five holes.

As Sean Arble would say, "I have a lot of time for..."  Aiken Golf Club in this case.

Distance etc notwithstanding, I'm 8-2 PD in this discussion, but boy is Aiken a lot of fun.

Ace

Even at 8-2, its a remarkable statement of quality for Aiken against a world-class golf diestination. 

Ciao

[Jim_Kennedy]

Eric,
We can use both types of courses, but it should be 10 to 1, that's build 10 -25 buck Aikens for 1 - 200 buck Pacific Dunes.

Having said that, if both of those courses were one mile apart and money was not the object, what do you think the ratio of play would be?  20-1, 30-1, 50-1? 

[Eric Smith]

I like your thinking Jim.  Problem is that one is on the ocean!

How about 100-1

[jeffwarne]

If you want a real comparison of destination resort courses

try Pac Dunes vs. TPC Sawgrass
for me 10-0 Pac Dunes  

Now try it at $200 for Pac Dunes(or less if it's your second 18) vs. $400 at TPC
10-0 Pac Dunes again


I think Aiken Golf Club is more desireable for a player who would normally not play the back tees
Great holes individually, but a steady diet of wedge and chip/putt approaches on the par 4's.(all of which are interesting shots)
I happen to love AGC-I think the world could use more such courses-and it is starting to catch on in the Augusta Aiken area

[Mike Nuzzo]

Where you live (or are) matters far more for playing Aiken than Pacific.

[Ryan Admussen]

If you want a real comparison of destination resort courses

try Pac Dunes vs. TPC Sawgrass
for me 10-0 Pac Dunes  

Now try it at $200 for Pac Dunes(or less if it's your second 18) vs. $400 at TPC
10-0 Pac Dunes again


I think Aiken Golf Club is more desireable for a player who would normally not play the back tees
Great holes individually, but a steady diet of wedge and chip/putt approaches on the par 4's.(all of which are interesting shots)
I happen to love AGC-I think the world could use more such courses-and it is starting to catch on in the Augusta Aiken area

or $390 for 72 holes over 2 days in november, best deal in golf in my opinion for a world class course, make that soon to be 4 world class courses

[Sean_A]

  No way these two courses leave you feeling the same way. The isolation at PD is superior. The surroundings with the ocean is uncomparable. And the quality of of design is not matched. The only aspect that Aiken wins is price. People travel across the country to play Pac. It never gets old.

  Anthony

 

Anthony

I think thats the point - well mine anyway.  You can't have a Pac Dunes at $25, but you can have a very interesting course just the same.  We focus a lot on the nuances of architecture which raise the price tag by 3, 4, 5, 6 or 7x times the price of a well designed and perfectly serviceable course.  I would like us to spend much more time focusing on how the less glamorous courses can hold our attention and possibly how they can be better still.  I still think its a very fine line between a Doak 6 and Doak 10 - thats why I don't totally buy his ratings. Most of thickness of that fine line is marketing, tradition, beauty and history. 

Ciao   

[Bill_McBride]

  No way these two courses leave you feeling the same way. The isolation at PD is superior. The surroundings with the ocean is uncomparable. And the quality of of design is not matched. The only aspect that Aiken wins is price. People travel across the country to play Pac. It never gets old.

  Anthony

 

I thought the railroad tracks were a wonderful feature.  I loved the way they started below, then at grade level, then back way below as the topography changed during those first five holes.

As Sean Arble would say, "I have a lot of time for..."  Aiken Golf Club in this case.

Distance etc notwithstanding, I'm 8-2 PD in this discussion, but boy is Aiken a lot of fun.

Ace

Even at 8-2, its a remarkable statement of quality for Aiken against a world-class golf diestination. 

Ciao

It's got a lot of value for money factored in there.

[Jim_Kennedy]

You really can't use extenuating factors like price, location, etc. to judge the play spread.

Again, put them side by each, give the golf away, and how many times would you pick Aiken over Pacific dunes? 1 in 50?

This is far from a bad rap, the photos/reports all are glowing and I'm going to go play it a few times when I head south this winter, but I can't even think of these two places in the way this thread does.

It's not a fair fight pitting a modern heavyweight against an old middleweight.

[jim_lewis]

I really like the Aiken Golf Club, and I claim to be the first here to have "discovered" it. However, it is not in the same league with Pacific Dunes. A very good hamburger versus a great filet mignon.
100-0

Jim Lewis

[Bill_McBride]

You really can't use extenuating factors like price, location, etc. to judge the play spread.

Again, put them side by each, give the golf away, and how many times would you pick Aiken over Pacific dunes? 1 in 50?

This is far from a bad rap, the photos/reports all are glowing and I'm going to go play it a few times when I head south this winter, but I can't even think of these two places in the way this thread does.

It's not a fair fight pitting a modern heavyweight against an old middleweight.

That was the basis for my "apples and oranges" quote up above.

[Sean_A]

You really can't use extenuating factors like price, location, etc. to judge the play spread.

Again, put them side by each, give the golf away, and how many times would you pick Aiken over Pacific dunes? 1 in 50?

This is far from a bad rap, the photos/reports all are glowing and I'm going to go play it a few times when I head south this winter, but I can't even think of these two places in the way this thread does.

It's not a fair fight pitting a modern heavyweight against an old middleweight.

Jim

Again, thats the point.  The golf isn't free.  At what point does the cost (value) start to negate the quality of the architecture? When can we say that a course is good enough for our purposes?  Its fine to say A is better than B, but the real question is only partly about the quality.  At some point, just as when you buy or rent another other product or service, the price has to matter and effect our decision-making.  Why would choosing a course to play be different?  In your scenario, say the courses are side by side, but the same with the same price structure as now, which do you spend more time playing?

Ciao

[Alex Miller]

You really can't use extenuating factors like price, location, etc. to judge the play spread.

Again, put them side by each, give the golf away, and how many times would you pick Aiken over Pacific dunes? 1 in 50?

This is far from a bad rap, the photos/reports all are glowing and I'm going to go play it a few times when I head south this winter, but I can't even think of these two places in the way this thread does.

It's not a fair fight pitting a modern heavyweight against an old middleweight.

Jim

Again, thats the point.  The golf isn't free.  At what point does the cost (value) start to eat into the quality of the architecture?  When can we say that a course is good enough for our purposes?  Its fine to say A is better than B, but the real question is only partly about the quality.  At some point, just as when you buy or rent another other product or service, the price has to matter and effect our decision-making.  In your scenario, say the courses are side by side, but the same with the same price structure as now, which do you spend more time playing?

Ciao

If they were side by side Aiken would be on the Pacific. 

But I'd imagine that if people fly to Bandon to pay what they do for Pacific Dunes, then they would probably choose it over Aiken if it were made even more available.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Bill,
Exactly right.

Sean,
To correctly judge the architecture means just that, the architecture and in a side by side, equal access scenario, who wins on the play-meter? I think Jim Lewis is overestimating the number, you'd play Aiken a few times out of one hundred for the variety, for the cart  , because you're in a league there, etc. 

Anything you toss into the mix after that is a qualifier of sorts. If the two were SbyS and at their present price structures, and I lived close by,  I'd have to play Aiken 10 times for every 1 go around PD, but that would mainly be a monetary decision (actually, if that were the case I'd probably get a job at PD so I could play there free on occasion, and hop over to Aiken when PD was too busy to let me out  )

The two really shouldn't be compared is this manner because it does a disservice to a course like Aiken.

[Rich Goodale]

Sean makes a very good point.  You need to compare the courses hypothetically, i.e. if Pacific Dunes were adjacent to Aitken in SC (or vice versa) at the same price points each has now (i.e. PC 10X Aitken), what would be your comparative play ratio be?  Having played PD five times and only now knowing the pictures of Aitken, I would play more than 50% of my rounds on "Aitken."  Which makes we wonder.....

Why doesn't Mike Keiser design an "Aitken" in Oregon?  Has he completely abandoned the mantra of "Golf as it was meant to be"?

[Bill_McBride]

Sean makes a very good point.  You need to compare the courses hypothetically, i.e. if Pacific Dunes were adjacent to Aitken in SC (or vice versa) at the same price points each has now (i.e. PC 10X Aitken), what would be your comparative play ratio be?  Having played PD five times and only now knowing the pictures of Aitken, I would play more than 50% of my rounds on "Aitken."  Which makes we wonder.....

Why doesn't Mike Keiser design an "Aitken" in Oregon?  Has he completely abandoned the mantra of "Golf as it was meant to be"?

Good point.  Bandon golf has become very pricey and will only go up I guess.  I took my wife to meet another couple. 
We spent two nights in a Chrome Lake one bedroom, played two rounds of golf with caddies, and had a few meals.  The bill was over $1,600.  Ouch.

[Sean_A]

Bill,
Exactly right.

Sean,
To correctly judge the architecture means just that, the architecture and in a side by side, equal access scenario, who wins on the play-meter? I think Jim Lewis is overestimating the number, you'd play Aiken a few times out of one hundred for the variety, for the cart  , because you're in a league there, etc. 

Anything you toss into the mix after that is a qualifier of sorts. If the two were SbyS and at their present price structures, and I lived close by,  I'd have to play Aiken 10 times for every 1 go around PD, but that would mainly be a monetary decision (actually, if that were the case I'd probably get a job at PD so I could play there free on occasion, and hop over to Aiken when PD was too busy to let me out  )

The two really shouldn't be compared is this manner because it does a disservice to a course like Aiken.

Jim

Sure, if folks are gonna stand up and compare straight across architecture, then PD wins on the play-o-meter - I assume.  BUT (and as you can tell form the capitals - its a big but), how many people - including the wing nuts on this site - actually do this - even if they can?  And if they did, to what purpose would it be?  Personally, I think folks throw in all sorts of stuff when evaluating that have nothing to do with architecture.  Why?  Because the experience is what the entire scene is about.  And if this is true, money plays a big role.  Once you have seen X number of wonderful courses, does it really matter if you can add one more to the list?  Personally, I believe the very high quality value courses are good enough to give the best courses a run for their money.  You seem to shrug off the qualifiers, but these qualifiers are in place for everything we buy or rent.  I don't see folks renting Aston Martins or whatever too much.  Why is that?

I would disagree that comparing PD with Aiken does Aiken a disservice.  The reason I mention this entire line of thought is because I think anything can be compared with anything else.  IMO, when folks say courses can't be compared its because they don't know enough to do so or can't be bothered to give it much thought.

Ciao   

[Kalen Braley]

I agree with Sean on this one, you can't seperate out all the critical things like price, access, and location and compares these two course in a vacuum.  Its fantasy-land stuff and akin to trying to compare Santa Claus to the Easter Bunny...whats the point?

Here in northern utah there are several good quality, inexpensive, un-crodwed layouts that many on GCA.com would find fun to play.  But the fact is, few if any will play them because after all, you would have to come to Utah to do so. But take these same courses and transplant them to Nor Cal and they would cost a ton more, and would get a lot more play, so a lot of what makes them attractive would go away....its just the realities of different locations.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Kalen,
Look at your own post. You say you cannot compare these courses in a vacuum, then tell us that there are a lot of good, cheap places to play in Utah but that we'll probably never see them because we have to drive all the way to Utah to do it. You don't call that a fantasy?.......

..........and there are more. Asking what would you play if these courses were side by side? How about the 10 hour road trip test? Or the all expenses paid trip? Or the guys want to get away for a week and play test? Or the I have to drive a week to go play in Bandon but only a day to play in Aiken test? Or the I have to drive a day to play in Bandon but I have to drive a week to play in Aiken test?

I can come up with more, but I think you get my point. I can make a winner out of either one of these courses just by creating the set of qualifiers that will do just that. Big deal.

There is no way you can compare these courses fairly unless you do it 'in a vacuum'. Then you get to see just how good a 20 buck course is against a 200 buck course, and that's why you do a course like Aiken CC a disservice when you try rate it by using qualifiers made up in fantasy land.     

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,
Look at your own post. You say you cannot compare these courses in a vacuum, then tell us that there are a lot of good, cheap places to play in Utah but that we'll probably never see them because we have to drive all the way to Utah to do it. You don't call that a fantasy?.......

..........and there are more. Asking what would you play if these courses were side by side? How about the 10 hour road trip test? Or the all expenses paid trip? Or the guys want to get away for a week and play test? Or the I have to drive a week to go play in Bandon but only a day to play in Aiken test? Or the I have to drive a day to play in Bandon but I have to drive a week to play in Aiken test?

I can come up with more, but I think you get my point. I can make a winner out of either one of these courses just by creating the set of qualifiers that will do just that. Big deal.

There is no way you can compare these courses fairly unless you do it 'in a vacuum'. Then you get to see just how good a 20 buck course is against a 200 buck course, and that's why you do a course like Aiken CC a disservice when you try to do it by using qualifiers made up in fantasy land.     

The best way of rating a course like Aiken against a course like Pacific dunes is to 

Jim,

Thats my point....these local courses are indeed here in Utah, and few people travel to Northern Utah to play golf....because that means they would have to actually come here!!  So yes that is indeed fantasy and exactly why few will do it

[Jim_Kennedy]

Sean,
You said: Personally, I think folks throw in all sorts of stuff when evaluating that have nothing to do with architecture.  Why?  Because the experience is what the entire scene is about.  And if this is true, money plays a big role.

A 20 buck course is not going for the same experience as a 200 buck course. Which is why if I wanted to rent a car that does more for me that just get me from point A to point B I would rent an Aston Martin,  or a 'Vette, or a Hummer, or a Viper, or a Ferrari, etc., (and there are numerous outlets here in the States where I can).

You said: Sure, if folks are gonna stand up and compare straight across architecture, then PD wins on the play-o-meter - I assume. (bold is mine)

This is the kind of remark that strains the credibility of your whole argument and the suggestion that there is a possibility that Aiken could somehow surpass PD on the architecture Play-O-Meter is another reason that you do Aiken a dissservice. 

I do agree that there are many value courses of good quality that give people all the bang for their bucks that they could possibly ask for, but they don't give the courses like PD a run for their money because they aren't even in the same race.     

[Rich Goodale]

"A 20 buck course is not going for the same experience as a 200 buck course."

To paraphrase Hemingway:

"Yeah, Scotty, it's a more expensive experience."

[Jim_Kennedy]

Rich,

You forget your Americanisms already? 

[Sean_A]

Sean,
You said: Personally, I think folks throw in all sorts of stuff when evaluating that have nothing to do with architecture.  Why?  Because the experience is what the entire scene is about.  And if this is true, money plays a big role.

A 20 buck course is not going for the same experience as a 200 buck course. Which is why if I wanted to rent a car that does more for me that just get me from point A to point B I would rent an Aston Martin,  or a 'Vette, or a Hummer, or a Viper, or a Ferrari, etc., (and there are numerous outlets here in the States where I can).

You said: Sure, if folks are gonna stand up and compare straight across architecture, then PD wins on the play-o-meter - I assume. (bold is mine)

This is the kind of remark that strains the credibility of your whole argument and the suggestion that there is a possibility that Aiken could somehow surpass PD on the architecture Play-O-Meter is another reason that you do Aiken a dissservice. 

I do agree that there are many value courses of good quality that give people all the bang for their bucks that they could possibly ask for, but they don't give the courses like PD a run for their money because they aren't even in the same race.     

My comment about assuming is because I don't know PD or Aiken.  PD may very well be far better than Aiken, but from the looking at the pix, I don't get the sense that Aiken is the poor hillbilly you make out. 

The bottom line for me is I can prefer a course that is architecturally inferior to another because architecture is only one of the reasons I play the game.  Besides, the difference in quality is sometimes way over-blown or at least in a direction which I don't fully appreciate.  You are welcome to pay $200 a pop for each time you tee it up.  Me, I want something which makes a bit more economic sense.  Golf is a game, not a way of life nor an obsession for me.  I am confident I have seen enough great stuff to know what it is and what it isn't.  I am also confident that I don't have to pay $200 to play great courses.  I may make it to PD one day, but I can tell you that I will more likely make it to Aiken beforehand - the course looks like it has all the right stuff so far as I am concerned.

Ciao

[Jim_Kennedy]

Sean
You have no idea about the types of courses that I play regularly, most are comparable to Aiken, i.e. inexpensive and fun while also containing some attention-holding architecture to boot. Just 'cause you're miffed that I think your method of comparing these two courses is a poor one is no reason to try and make it seem that I said anything bad about Aiken golf course. Just the opposite is true, I said it intrigued me enough that I'm going to play it a few times when I head south.
Actually, the only one referring to Aiken as a 'Poor Hillbilly' is you.....plus, you aren't doing much to make me think your comparison is credible by saying  "I may make it to PD one day, but I can tell you that I will more likely make it to Aiken beforehand - the course looks like it has all the right stuff so far as I am concerned"