Cape Kidnappers

[Anthony_Nysse]

Is anyone watching Cape Kidnappers on NBC? The course and conditioning lok FLAWLESS! The course is very firm and green.  I must say, Mr. Doak and Co. did a great job!  What grasses are on the playing surfaces?

Tony Nysse
Pine Tree GC
Boynton Beach, FL

[Matt_Ward]

After watching the telecast maybe those who are familiar with the property can comment -- are there days at CK when wind checks are issued ?

[Tom_Doak]

Tony:

The fairways are a mixture of fescue and Colonial bentgrass; it's mostly Colonial.  Greens are creeping bent, I can't remember which variety right now.  [Dave Wilber did the specs.]

Matt:

The course is on a plateau on a point 450 feet above the ocean.  The wind can come up very suddenly!  You might have a couple of days a month when the winds get really tough, but not so often that they would abandon play.  We played through some pretty tough winds in the Renaissance Cup a few years ago, but nothing like the end of Round 1 ... did you hear Sean O'Hair's interview afterward?  He said he and Mahan and Villegas went out to hit some balls after the round was called, and Villegas hit a 5-wood up into the wind that landed BEHIND him!

P.S.  Even when they came back out the next morning, the wind seems to be blowing the opposite direction from last year (this year it's a southerly) -- they were hitting 4-irons and 5-irons into the 18th green, where they had 9-irons last year.

[Scott Coan]

After watching the telecast maybe those who are familiar with the property can comment -- are there days at CK when wind checks are issued ?

We had a group of 12 playing in a bit of a mini-tournament there a number of years ago and they had a member of the greens staff shadowing behind us and taking in the pins for fear that the wind would snap them off.  It was blowing a constant 40mph+.

At the turn (which returns to the clubhouse) they offered a free game the next day if we wanted to call it quits.  The first 2 groups were keen to abandon as we were all well over par but the last group had a couple of guys both aged 60+ and both carrying their own bags that were only +2 thru the first 9.  No way threy were quitting so we all had to soldier on.       

[Ash Towe]

I had a similar experience to Scott.

The staff are very obliging and have a great understanding of the conditions.  You never feel short changed and it is all a part of the great experience to be found at CK.

[PCCraig]

The course looked awesome on HDTV. I thought the most interesting holes to watch the group play were 13 and 14 as I don't think those guys see holes like that in similar conditions very often. For example, on 13 you could tell those guys were trying to loft up a SW behind the pin and spin it back, but because of #1) the wind knocking the high shots all over the place and #2) the ground being too hard for the typical PGA Tour 10ft of spin back.

Also it was interesting to watch them play 14 in different wind conditions as last year when downwind they all immediately fired at the green, and only Kim could get it close after hitting a perfect spinning pitch. This year it looked like they all just took a driver down the left-center. I suppose the bunker and trouble on the right make hugging them not worth the reward of a clear shot at the green?

[Tom_Doak]

Pat:.

The green on 14 is a pretty shallow target, with a nasty pot bunker in front and a VERY steep fall over the back.  Into the wind, those guys are not worried at all about stopping their shots on the green, so it doesn't matter so much where they drive it -- unless the pin is to the far right of the green, which I'm guessing they might use today.  But downwind, it's a tricky target, so they would rather try to get as close as possible to the green.  A.K. and Brandt Snedeker hit two awesome approach shots on that hole last year, worth the price of admission by themselves.

[Matt_Ward]

How wide is #15 from one edge to the other at say the 300-yd marlk and the 350-yd mark ?

Trying to get a handle on the overall width -- looks like from TV the preferred angle is from the right. Is that so?

I'd like to also get a handle on what is the general -- and I use that word in its widest sense -- the prevailing wind during much of the regular golf season?

thanks ...

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

The 15th hole has right around 40 yards of fairway in the landing area and, in fact, all the way down the hole.  It's a little wider at the 250-yard mark which is one reason we put the tee so far back.  I have never known anyone who tried to play to the right or left side on that hole ... you are just trying to keep it on the planet twice ... although, now that they call the left side O.B. instead of hazard [to keep somebody from falling to their death while trying to find the ball], you would be crazy to miss to the left [stroke and distance] instead of along a lateral hazard line on the right.

Prevailing wind up there is hard to declare.  There are many beautiful, dead-calm days in the summer.  The wind I've played in most is from the north / northwest, which means the wind is quartering into you from the left on holes like 12 and 15 ... a VERY tough wind for most amateurs if it's blowing 10 knots, and one reason many of the fairways are so wide.  The wind they saw for the start of the Kiwi Challenge was a southerly [coming from Antarctica] ... those usually don't last more than a day, but they can be really cold and pretty strong.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom:

Many thanks ...

What do you think is the most underrated hole on the course ?

And, given what you have seen from the way the top pros have played the course now is there anything you might change or add to the design?

thanks ...

[tlavin]

Pure, unabashed golf porn.

[Eric_Terhorst]

Pure, unabashed golf porn.

Agreed.  This and the action at Kingston Heath should be required viewing for the so-called "Open Doctors" and Masters officials.  Well-designed courses set up with no rough and firm & fast--great fun to watch.

[Tom_Doak]

I've just finished watching the guys butcher the 15th hole in regulation.

Last year I was shocked to see all four guys pull driver there when they all knew the hole would play as a three-shotter.  Snedeker drove it left (not quite as far left as O'Hair today) and only a great third shot from 270 yards kept him in the game.

Yesterday it was downwind so I was not surprised to see them hit driver; but today, into the wind, they did it again even though a couple of long irons and a short iron would have been plenty for them.  Baffling strategy ... it suggests they are not confident hitting a long iron into the fairway.

[Tom_Doak]

P.S. to Anthony:  Have you noticed how many problems these guys have had when they're trying to putt from 5-10 yards off the green?  That's the reason I prefer fescue to Colonial bent.  There's just too much friction from the wider-bladed Colonial bent, and the difference in speed with the bent greens is so great that the slightest misjudgment is really magnified.

[Michael Rossi]

Mr. Doak

Very Nice.

Just watched Kim take advantage of the slope left of the green on 18.
Looks like Kim and O'Hair are heading back to 15. Should be an interesting finish.

Hope I may one day get the opportunity to play it.

[PCCraig]

Mr. Doak

Very Nice.

Just watched Kim take advantage of the slope left of the green on 18.
Looks like Kim and O'Hair are heading back to 15. Should be an interesting finish.

Hope I may one day get the opportunity to play it.

I'm stuck at the office today and can't watch! argh! 

[Jonathan Cummings]

Tom D - Just watched Kim win in a playoff at #15. 

Question - when the Ren Cup was played was 15 played as a lateral hazard?  I simply don't remember.

JC

[Alex Miller]

They have now finished butchering the 15th hole in the playoff. WOW

Tom-

I haven't played the course but submit #1 as most underrated.

As for 15:

Would you change anything about it? Obviously these guys did not hit very good shots, but it's very penal.

Also, did you always know that that part of the property would produce a long par 5 or did you have other ideas about Pirate's Plank?

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

What did you think about Hunter Mahan and his head shakes after not managing to keep it on the green on 14 after his 1st putt from just off?  Would be interesting to hold a caption contest to speculate what he was thinking. 

[Anthony_Nysse]

Pure, unabashed golf porn.

Agreed.  This and the action at Kingston Heath should be required viewing for the so-called "Open Doctors" and Masters officials.  Well-designed courses set up with no rough and firm & fast--great fun to watch.

Not just the architecture, but the set up and how the turf was maintained was nearly flawless at both sites. I think that it really shows the importance of proper water management and a keen eye for handwatering. I know that that was a major reason that I watched this weekend, as well.

Tony Nysse
Pine Tree GC
Boynton Beach, FL

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

For all of my criticisms regarding TV broadcasts of PGA Tour events, the camera certainly showcased CK for you.

Will this be an annual event ?

Are there lessons to be learned that could be applied to the telecast of Sebonack ?

Nice weekend for you.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom D:

When you say 40 yards across for #15 -- are we talking about the actual fairway grass width or when you have reached the end of the earth on both sides where the severe dropoff occurs.

Just from viewing the overhead camera shot of the hole -- the fairway area looks quite intimidating to hit.

You may not have seen my previous post -- most underrated hole at the course is ?

One final point -- CK seems from my position in watching the telecast to favor players who can work the ball to get to the more favored spots -- no doubt when you have fast and firm conditions getting to those positions and keeping your ball there is no small matter. Best shot I saw over the last remaining holes -- Kim's approach to #18 from a downhill / sidehill lie -- used the rim of the green as a perfect backboard shot. Too bad the clinching birdie putt missed.

[Rob Rigg]

Hi Tom,

The course looked fab of course.

One question on the bunkers located within the fairways and around the greens - Is there a reason that they are not shaved but have rough around them?

Villegas' ball got hung up on the 16th (I think) but if the bunker was shaved it would have rolled in.

Are all the bunkers like that? Does it work better with the general course aesthetic?

I would imagine that the course is hard enough for most people so it provides a little bit of respite - just wondering if was designed that way or is maintained that way?

Rarely does my wife actually sit down for a couple of minutes to watch golf on TV - Needless to say, CK is on the menu for a "some point in our lives" trip, she was in awe, especially with 15 - The Kiwis must be loving what Mr Robertson has done to elevate the course and their country for golf tourists.

[Wayne_Kozun]

I'm stuck at the office today and can't watch! argh! 

Which is why the good Lord invented PVRs!

[Tom_Doak]

Sorry to be late to this thread ... I was on the Sports Illustrated roundtable this evening just after the event from NZ was over.

First of all, I'm glad for Anthony Kim, who had his chance to win last year and was very bummed to fall short.

Now to the questions:

Alex, the only question on #15 was whether to use that part of the ground or not.  My first routing for the course didn't go out that far, partly because the land for #15 was so narrow ... I wish it were ten yards wider.  But it isn't.  And Mr. Robertson was right to want the course to get out there ... it's one of the two most spectacular spots on a spectacular course.  (The other is #5, which didn't even make the telecast, unfortunately.) 

You are right that it's a very penal hole, but as I've described above, the way to play it is simply to back off and keep the ball in play.  In our Renaissance Cup matches five years ago, one of my clients told me they won the hole every time in better-ball simply by outlasting their opponents; in three matches their opponents never finished the hole!  But you or I could have beaten O'Hair on that hole today, without ever hitting more than a 4-iron.

Kalen, to answer Matt's question, I think the 14th is the most underrated hole on the course.  It's the only par-4 under 400 yards, but it consistently yields some "Wow" shots.  Mahan's was not a wow ... but it's a tough little shot, as you're coming up about a three-foot slope, and then the green is not too deep ... I'll bet he was worried about putting off the far side since it was downwind.

Matt, if 14 isn't underrated because at least it's on TV ... the fourth and fifth and seventh are all worthy of consideration, but they don't make the telecasts.  And my recollection is that the fairway on 15 is forty yards across, but it might have been the flat deck instead.  I'll have to go back and pace it out for you.

Patrick, I wish this would continue to be an annual event, as does everyone at NBC ... they love going down there.  It's a pretty good gig for the four players, too.  But, it is all dependent on Mr. Robertson continuing to underwrite it.  Frankly I was surprised they did it again this year, but his family really had fun with it last year.

Rob, the bunkers are very deep and steep on Cape Kidnappers ... there are a lot of places where they can't hang the mowers over the edge for fear of rolling them over into the bunkers.  Because it was a flatter piece of land, the ground just doesn't fold down into the bunkers the same as it does on links courses, so it was tough to build a transition that would work for that kind of mowing.  They did have a few awkward shots around the bunkers, but isn't that the point?