[Jim Colton]

I've been thinking about classic courses and how they've responded to the rapid change in technology. One option is obviously the Augusta route - lengthen, add rough, add trees to keep the course difficult for the modern player. What are the best examples of courses that have taken the option on the other side of the spectrum - to do little or nothing, yet are not materially worse for the wear with respect to the course, the challenge and the shot values that they present? What can we learn from these timeless classics that is useful for courses being built today?

[Bill_McBride]

Are there any "classic era" courses that aren't juiced up for the major events?

Pebble Beach is probably the most likely candidate.  It hasn't been lengthened dramatically, but par is protected by the tiny greens and blowing winds in summer.  Unless it's Tiger in 2000.

[Alex Miller]

Oakmont?

Not much juice necessary

[PCCraig]

Almost all of the Timeless Classics I've seen all have one thing in common...fantastic and interesting greens. Past GCA's understood better that a great golf hole started with the green and the strategy worked backward toward the tee.

[Bill_McBride]

Oakmont?

Not much juice necessary

Have you seen the new 4th tee?  I've only seen photos but it looks like the Matterhorn back there.

[Adam Clayman]

One option is obviously the Augusta route - lengthen, add rough, add trees to keep the course difficult for the modern player. What are the best examples of courses that have taken the option on the other side of the spectrum - to do little or nothing, yet are not materially worse for the wear with respect to the course, the challenge and the shot values that they present? What can we learn from these timeless classics that is useful for courses being built today?

Jim, Those elements you cite are interesting, as is your interpretation. On just any old course they do much more than make it difficult. They ruin the character of a great design. Case in point, Meadow Club. Devries re-do removed many (but not enough) trees, expanded the greens and underneath all that 1950-70's dark age mindset unearthed fantastic views, looks and intimacies.
Cal club is another that has seen fit to remove thousands of trees and open up the field to allow players to decide where to play, how to play and enjoy the walk between shots by creating a pleasant openness.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Adam:  Scores from the recent MacKenzie Invitational at Meadow Club, which doesn't seem to support the fact that the course represents a significant challenge to the expert golfer.  But then again, I don't think that is the objective of the club.

http://golfstatresults.com//public/leaderboards/player/static/player1834.html

[Tom_Doak]

Jim C:

Crystal Downs has held up as well as any course I can think of.  Of course, we only have to stand up to an average of one Tour pro a year, but the course only has three back tees that weren't built by Perry Maxwell (on #3, #13, and #18), and it is still very challenging due to its combination of severe greens, undulation, wind, and mixture of short and very long par-4's.

[Adam Clayman]

Adam:  Scores from the recent MacKenzie Invitational at Meadow Club, which doesn't seem to support the fact that the course represents a significant challenge to the expert golfer.  But then again, I don't think that is the objective of the club.

http://golfstatresults.com//public/leaderboards/player/static/player1834.html

If I said expert player, it should've been better player.

And as you point out the mission of the club appeared not to react like many by extending back tees to ridiculous lengths.

Jim mentioned to me how those kids all tried to bomb it on to the 16th green. With few breaking par.

64's don't seem unreasonable considering how good these kids are and how relaxing the course  can make a player feel and play. From what I noticed, (I wasn't focused on it) the blue tees were not very much past the whites I played.

Your post also brings up the mindset of holding to a specific value for par.\

Why don't we expect more from the expert player than what we're getting? Lower and lower scores commensurate with the technological improvements made since the early nineties?

Shouldn't these kids have shot in the 120's?

[Bill_McBride]

Jim mentioned to me how those kids all tried to bomb it on to the 16th green. With few breaking par.

When Ed Getka and I played the back nine with Jonathan McCord a couple of years ago, that long knocking youngster hit both par 5s in two and drove onto the 16th green.  It was an impressive show!!

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