NGLA 3rd " Alps "..questions...

[R.S._Barker]

Hello,

In my continued quest to study The National, I’ve reached the 3rd hole “ Alps “ and had some observations about what I see from the 29 images that I have of the hole. For those of you that have played this incredible course, I’m wondering if, as before with the 2nd, you’d share your personal insight with me. I’m not having any problems understanding visually just how stunning the 3rd is, but I do have a couple questions about specific design elements…so as before, I’ll share my idea of the hole based on the images I have.

Off the tee, you’re faced with a swale in front of you, and a small fairway extension fronting a massive bunker that runs parallel to the main fairway itself. The bunker is deep, and is fronted by a fairly large mound that is perhaps 3 to 4 feet in height and runs the entire length of the bunker, fronted between it and the fairway proper. To clear this bunker from the tee, a drive must be 225 yards.

The fairway sits at a lovely angle, and has 2 small oblong bunkers left (on the edge of the fairway), and a series of bunkers in the middle above the fairway on the side of the hill. There is a cross bunker nearer the end of the fairway, up closer to the green complex which basically runs about 2/3 of the way across the fairway itself, and also has mounding fronting it (closest to the green). The 3 bunkers on the hillside, nearest the fairway, have deep mounding around them, and 2 of them could be in play on practically any drive.

On top of the hill sits a small fairway shelf of some 50 yards in length, with singular bunkers left, right, and a large one at the end (nearest the green). The bunker at the end of the fairway is some 3 to 5 feet below the fairway, and some 2 to 3 feet below the surface of the green. There are also bunkers further to the left of this fairway, perhaps to catch a recovery shot from the aforementioned trouble spots.

The green has bunkers fronting it right front, center, left, and rear left. The bunker on the right is very deep, sitting some 6 to 8 feet below the green complex. It is highly sloped from back to front, looking to have a slope up towards the back of about 3 to 4 feet, and has multiple undulations throughout. It has a huge mound behind, with the famous bell tower donated by Joseph A. McBride on June 13, 1979, and the spotter’s flag.

So, what would be a good guess as to the height of the hill that fronts the green complex?

About how far is it in feet from the fairway on top of the hill down to the green complex itself?

It’s difficult for me to visualize the drop-off down to the green, since I only have 2 pics taken from the side showing the end of the fairway and the large bunker fronting the green.  

Finally, the tiny fairway fronting the massive bunker…was this designed to help the golfer whom could not reach the fairway safely in a strong wind?

Any thoughts or comments would be most appreciated..

Many thanks for your time,

R.S. Barker

http://members.tripod.com/silverleaf_design/architecture.htm

[TEPaul]

Wow, very cool website there.

When I was reading your post I really wasn't regcognizing the way you were describing the 3rd. I was thinking either you aren't describing very well or I'm really unobservant.

But you described it well. The bunker across the fairway about 20yds in front of the green is not below the green though although it does sort of look that way in the photo. The berm behind the green is quite startling in its manufacturedness--that is the first real evidence of that kind of thing at NGLA that hit me. If you really look hard at that berm it starts to show exactly how they may have pulled their look off so well, the top of the berm is really beautifully done, I think. It has a very random top profile line to it and of course it also hides #4 tee directly behind it.

I'm probably not that observant but I feel that the reason I may not have recognized the bunkering you were describing on and around the first part of the hole and certainly from the tee is probably due to what a truly startling sight it is to stand on that tee and look at that hole! The impact of the size and scale of the "alps" mountain is so large and dominant that I guess it alone just grabs your eye and holds it so you might not notice that much else.

The bunker to carry the tee shot over is beautifully diagonal, longer carry the farther right you go which should serve to make the carry over the "Alps" a bit easier on the approach. If you drive it straight at the "Alps" (more left) the carry over the diagonal bunker is not so long but then of course you feel like your right up against or almost under the "alps" mountain and that can present some problems with getting your second shot high enough, not just long enough.

Lastly the photo you have from the tee is not really the sensation you get on the tee. The dark shadow in the photo sort of hides the visual impact of the "Alps" and makes the hole look like the center of it is down the right side. That isn't really what it looks like. It just looks like this enormous mountain in front of you and you know the green is right over it! The fairway down the right seems more like a long narrow alternate route which ultimately it is--for a layup second shot. Then you have to hit your third up to a blind surface way above you not unlike the shot you can have from the "pit" to the right of #2 green. And you also have to remember to hit that lay-up right far enough or the end of the "Alps" will still make the green itself entirely blind!

Also the green itself is unbelievable to see and play--it's enormous mostly side to side and if you're on the wrong portion of it to the pin a two putt can be a real accomplishment. If you are going to go at this green on your approach shot and you miss this green, the place to do it in almost all cases is left of it in a chipping area!

[Patrick_Mucci]

RS,

The initial fairway bunker doesn't run parallel to the fairway.
It is more of a cross bunker, where you bite off as much as you feel comfortable with.

I used to think that hitting it up the extreme right side was the way to go, but studying the aerial map in the clubhouse I discovered that the angle for the second shot appeared more difficult, and that I wasn't saving that much distance on my second shot, in light of that serious of a gamble with my driver.

The more I observed veteran NGLA players, the more it appeared that the hole was best played by driving slightly to the right of the far straightaway fairway bunker, gaining an uphill lie, and then relying on your caddie for a proper line to the flag stick.

The hole always gave off a dogleg signal to me until I studied the map.  It is much straighter then it appeared to me when playing it, and coming in from the far right side can make ones' ball uncontrollable on the green from that direction.

The exception to this might be if the pin was far right or far right/back.

My limited sense of the hole is that carry of the first fairway bunker (cross) was more difficult 20 + years ago, and that the hole would regain more demand from the drive, even though the fairway is about 100 yards wide, by moving the tee back to back/right 20-30 yards.

Now, as difficult and unique as the hole has been, you ain't seen nothin, till you see and putt on that green.  The green is huge, with bowls, ridges, tiers, drop-offs, etc, etc..  
Go long on your second, by six inches, and you have trouble.
Hit to the wrong quadrant of the green, and you have trouble.

The hole provides you with two great challenges.
Challenge # 1.  Getting to the green in regulation
Challenge # 2.   Getting down in two

I would say that many don't like the hole the first time, or first few times they play it, but..... something about it grows on you, and you realize that if you walk off with a par, you've done well.  Walk off with birdie, and it can make your day.

I hope you get to play it, and I hope to have an abundance of photos for you this spring.

But, that's just my opinion, Tom Paul can still be wrong !

[Gene Greco]

I can think of no other hole in the world which has SO MUCH going on at every twist and turn from tee to green.  This hole is always such an adventure every time I've played it.

Birdie? I've played the course about 50 or 60 times over the last 14 years and can only remember parring it a handful of times. My handicap has ranged from two to ten during this time.

As Pat has mentioned getting to the green is just one huge challenge; getting down in two putts may be the bigger challege.

You must play the hole to even believe that a hole like this exists. Nothing else in the world like it.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

If my opinion is wrong, yours must be too because we're in total agreemnent on this one--wonder of all wonders--the dynamics of Golfclubatlas must be softening or something.

#3 is one tough hole no matter how you slice it and just may be a hole that gets even harder to score well on the better you get to know it.

The first time I played the hole I just hit the club over the hill that my caddie told me to. You can't see anything anyway so I just hit the shot and I sort of thought I pulled it but he said that should be good and I think the ball ended about six feet below the left pin and I birdied it. That will probably never happen again now that I know the hole better and having played it a bunch more times I'm certainly way over par on the hole.

[George Bahto]

great fun hole - first three times i played the hole i never found my second shpt

[TEPaul]

The first three times you played the "Alps" you never found your shpt huh?

Well no wonder. The shpt is what Jewish golfers refer to as the inaccurately executed shot of the goyim! Neither the "Alps" nor NGLA has ever looked favorably on the shpt so it's understandable that three of your golf balls are still misplaced somewhere on that mountain.

[R.S._Barker]

I might have said this before, but if not..

The discussion in this thread and others is why I'm a bonafide GCA member for life. I can not thank you all enough for your enlightening comments about this hole.

Ok, I do have a plethora of pics of the green, but I'm still curious about the dropoff ( for lack of better terminology ) from the fairway on top of the hill down to the green...it's the only part I'm not " visualising ". Would a conservative estimate be say..15 feet ?

Perhaps I should say I'm dyslexic, in that I have to read these posts a couple of times, and then transfer their meaning to the images I have....and then study each image for about 15 minutes until each pic starts to drop into place in my mind so that I can 3dize ( is that a word ? )..the hole in my mind.

A perfect example is that " deep depression " on the right side of the 2nd..I looked at the images, and had no clue until it was discussed in detail here in a previous thread of mine.

TEPaul,

Thank you for the comment about my site...though I do not update all the time, I'm glad you've found it to be a good read...

Patrick,

I would certainly look forward to any images that you might have to further my study of this absolute gem. Thanks !!

Gene,

Someday I'd love to experience this course in all it's glory...aye, I can say with all honesty that Portmarnock and The National get my full attention.

Thanks again,

R.S. Barker

http://members.tripod.com/silverleaf_design/architecture.htm

[TEPaul]

R.S.

You're so polite to keep thanking those that contribute to your threads--but thanks for doing it! It's nice to see and is a nice juxtaposition to a couple of verbal barbarians like Pat Mucci and me.

The question of not being able to visualize the drop-off from the fairway on the alps hill down to the green is a good one. I'm not sure but the photo does not show the way it really seems to be. I'm not that spatial but maybe it is 15' from the top of the fairway that's farther back. But from that crossing bunker about 20yds in front maybe 10' or less. George Bahto or Pat, Chip Oat might know better.

The play though from the bunker or the fairway onto the green is an interesting one that has many alternate types of shots that could be used, I'm sure, probably not unlike the approach to #2 green from in front of it.

There is a bell on #3 because of the blindness of the green and in tournaments there is always a man with a chair who waves the groups in the fairway on when the green has cleared anyway.

[redanman]

I was even more smitten with the Alps than the Redan at National, so maybe I should be the Alpsman  , but to me it is only the coolest play hole on the planet. Could I play it 18 times for a round of golf, yes, probably, and i'd probably learn something each time.  More later.

Gene.... birdie?  Uh, none here either and I've had my share of birdies and even a couple of eagles on that course.  Par will win nearly any match, it can be a skin, too.

[THuckaby2]

Methinks Gene captured this well with the simple statement that there is more "going on" on this hole than any other I can think of either!  Choices, choices, choices... and that's just the INTENTIONAL - based on results, the world of possible outcomes is damn near infinite.  For those who have played it multiple times, I'd be interested in how many different ways you TRIED to play it, contrasting with how many different ways it came out...

In my top 18 holes done by number (ie best 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc.) this was a no-brainer for #3.

BTW, speaking of "how the hell can one make birdie on this hole", in my one try there my THIRD shot came to rest just over the bunker, on the front edge of the green... looking backwards up the hill that forms the left "fairway" on top of the hill (which I did), I'd say 10 feet is the dropoff.  But I too don't estimate heights very well.

TH

[vonHayek]

A bit of trivia:

If you look at an original map of National (there's one in Scotland's Gift), you will see that the patch of fairway just short of the major cross bunker wasn't there. It was added a few years later, for reasons I will share.

CBM's best friend in those days was the Hon. Morgan J O'Brien, a prominent judge on the NY Court of Appeals. You can see the two of them poring over plans for NGLA in a painted frieze just after you enter the clubhouse on the right.

The Judge, as he was often known, wasn't a very long hitter, and he complained loudly to CBM that he couldn't make the carry to the fairway on Alps. To accomodate his friend, CBM added the squarish patch of fairway short of the bunker, from which the Judge could then "leap frog" onto the main fairway.

The area was long known as "Judge O'Brien's Square," although you don't hear it as much anymore.

I know this because the Judge was my great-grandfather.

[R.S._Barker]

Von Hayek,

What a wonderful bit of trivia to hear about NGLA.

To be honest, I wondered about that patch, since my overheads show that it's about 150 yards to the cross bunker front, and I personally thought it was a simple fairway in case the wind was whipping into your face off the tee.

In retrospect, this shows just how far golf equipment has come, since this like other classic hole designs of the time, shows that the golfer whom could hit the ball 230 yards was the exception, and not the rule.

Thank you for sharing,

R.S. Barker

http://members.tripod.com/silverleaf_design/architecture.htm