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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2009, 09:44:29 AM »
JSPayne:

Believe it or not, there were no bunker irrigation heads for the first 450 years of golf, and it got along okay.

JSPayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2009, 10:15:49 AM »
Tom,

Duly noted.....but unfortunately us turf managers often don't have much control over the severity of the sloping around bunkers nor the grass types that were chosen when the course was designed and built and when trying to merely keep vegetative growth alive in order to hold the surrounding soil in place, I'd prefer micro irrigation over macro if given the choice.

Of course, I'd love to rebuild/redesign all bunkers that require this to be more like those in the days of yore, or plant hearty, drought-tolerant fescues and native grasses on the slopes, but making that sell to a GM/owner/greens committee is sometimes a near impossible task.

All I'd say in this instance is that the "overkill" should be placed on the original design/architect that caused the requirement of such painstaking maintenance than the superintendent who's just trying to find the most efficient way to get the job done. So I guess a better complaint than "bunker irrigation heads" should be "bunkers with crazy slopes and fingers of manicured grass that require bunker irrigation heads to keep grass alive."
"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best, night and day, to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any human being can fight; and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2009, 12:46:44 PM »
JS:  Exactly right.  But in my view the superintendent who is involved in the construction of that course should be arguing to CHANGE THE BUNKERS, not ADD MORE IRRIGATION.  And most of them only speak up about the latter.

JSPayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2009, 12:57:17 PM »
Tom,

Agreed 100%. Going to build any new courses in the Sacramento area any time soon? Sign me up.  ;D I'd love to, at some point, move on a course that had or has the foresight to see the future of golf course maintenance and starts doing things to sustain the business and future of the game.
"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best, night and day, to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any human being can fight; and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

john_stiles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2009, 01:25:09 PM »


My favorite pimp is the tee sign, sticking up near the tee, indicating the hole number,  yardage, etc. 

The 'spinner' treatment would be a diagram of the hole on the tee sign.

The 'urban package' often also includes poles in the fairway.


Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2009, 05:38:35 PM »
Wow.....sorry to burst everyone's fun bubble here, but I'm amazed at how ignorant some of the ideas of "pimping" are on this thread as they pertain to effective golf course maintenance. Allow me to just expound on a few as part of yet another opportunity to educate the golfing public:

Bunker irrigation heads - when designed effectively, help to substaintially save on both water costs and manual labor that would otherwise be needed to put irrigation vital to the plants basic health and survival in areas where slope, infiltration and runoff are huge issues. More often than not, this type of irrigation is not there to "keep the grass green" as much as to use the most efficient method of irrigating the grass enough to make sure the noses, fingers, surrounds, etc don't turn into dirt or, conversely, have to flood the bunker just to keep the grass around it alive
AGREE WITH TOM DOAK

Landscaped ball washer complexs - I'd prefer to just have the ball washers on the carts, but since most don't like carts, if you're going to have them on the course, might as well isolate them without grass underneath to maintain. I put decompsed granite around my ballwasher areas (not landscape plants) because before we had it, mowers had to stop their machines, get off and move the ball washer or if it was permanently there we had to send a guy later to eventually weedeat down the foot tall grass around it that the mower could get to. The "landscaping" saves on labor time and overall asthetic without any added attention needed to keep grass or plants alive in a tricky area.
EITHER TRIM WITH WEEDEATER OR MOVE AND MOW IMHO AND ONLY PUT ON EVERY THIRD HOLE
Walk-mowed approaches - Funny this should be on there with a bunch of "better" golfers participating. Walk mowing will almost always give you a better quality cut, at lower heights, enabling those wild and excitingly undulating greens surrounds to play firm, fast, true and smooth to be able to have options between using the putter and other clubs. Also, many approaches/surrounds that do have significant mounding/undulations may be very difficult if not impossible to mow with any other larger mower without scalping all the little hills and missing the cut in the tiny valleys. More often than not, hand mowing in these areas is for logistics and playability, not aesthetics.
SCALP THE AREAS THAT SCALP AND MISS THE CUT IN THE TINY VALLEYS....THE ODG SUPTS DID SO.....AND HAND MOWING FOR LOGISTICS AND PLAYABILITY?  WHAT DID THEY DO BEFORE..... ;)

Bottled water on the course - Kyle Harris already hit this on the head.....if golfers weren't so sue happy, it wouldn't be necessary. Often it's not a "pimped" perk, it's a required mandate to avoid lawsuits about drinking water availability and contamination. Drinking fountains pose the same problem....all it takes is one person to claim they got sick from drinking the water on the course.....
SOUNDS GOOD BUT PLENTY STILL USE A COOLER

Courses with $2.5 million irrigation systems that handwater regularly - I don't care how much your irrigation system costs, the best efficiency you're going to get with JUST sprinklers on any golf course is no better than 80%. As such, handwatering is ALWAYS necessary. Would you rather turn on a sprinkler with a 60 foot radius putting out 25 gallons per minute to water a 2x2 bone dry area, or just use a hose to put the necessary couple gallons EXACTLY where it needs to go? Every super who's installed a new irrigation system, which usually saves their club THOUSANDS in saved water costs, repair materials and labor hours, has to deal with morons who just don't get why it's still necessary to water by hand. (Sorry for the name-calling, but this is a particular pet peeve of mine.)
I HAVE SEEN SEVERAL WITH NEW 2.5 MILL SYSTEMS THAT HANDWATER.....FIRST THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE THE EXPENSIVE SYSTEM AND I HAVE STILL NOT SEEN WHERE THE CLUB ACTUALLY SAVES THOUSANDS IN WATER COST...USUALLY JUST A REASON TO GET A NEW TOY ;D...OF COURSE THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS....BUT YOU HAVE TO ADMIT IT IS FUN TO TELL THE GUY DOWN THE STREET YOURS IS BETTER THAN HIS.... ;D


I'd love to hear from the suggestors of these ideas after they play a golf course that has dirt around every bunker, foot high grass around the ball washers (or no ball washers at all), approaches with horribly inconsistant heights of cut and quality, no drinking water, and spattered areas of rock hard dirt next to mushy bogs due to only irrigating with sprinklers.  
GUYS DID IT FOR YEARS AND WE WILL AGAIN..... ;)

JS,
I have the utmost respect for supts and what they mean to the game and what they mean to the perception of all golf designs.....BUT....I do have a few concerns that just seem to keep popping up over and over again when I listen to supts.....now granted...they are in a business where they must adhere to an owners wishes but I think we are fast approaching a time when the owners of courses whether they be committees or individuals or municipalities will not be asking " how much budget do you need?" but instead will be saying" here is what you have to spend...do it or find another job".....I understand what you say re bunker irrigation but that comment is not " ignorant" as you mention above.....ALL OF THIS STUFF HAS TO STOP AT MANY COURSES.... I am so tired of the perception from the golf industry that we all must have "Mercedes" when the "Honda" and Camry" are great models and work fine for the majority.....the perception that something is being done incorrectly when it is not to a USGA spec or a cart path does not have a specific curb or the pruning of the trees or the landscaping does not fit with the club down the street......
I see so many cases of supts getting in a weiner measuring contest with the other supts in their area and clubs end up thinking they have to spend money they don't have to spend....
If we have done anything wrong in this business in the last 25 years it is to allow all of the advancements in turf  education and technology to be viewed as necessities more so than choices or options.....and young supts are afraid not to use them....I have seen the faces and smirks at meetings when you speak about "backing off" and how some of the young guys consider such "ignorant" and think saying such insinuates you have no idea.....well  ..golf is in a mess....
I always enoyed talking to and watching the old supts that were doing all in their power to give a club good conditions and then great conditions on days it was called for.....
I remember a prominent architect telling me 20 years ago that I should continue to strive for larger and larger budgets...WELL the industry definitely did that.....and I think we are paying for it.....I think it is often best described as being employee driven moreso than member or owner driven.....and that is getting ready to change....
Thanks for being a supt...you guys are the most integral part of the course....not kidding ;)
« Last Edit: November 11, 2009, 09:18:44 PM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2009, 06:08:43 PM »
Mike,

Better check the linens at your residence.  Hancock made off with a couple of my daughter's Hello Kitty bath towels while in Bogeyville.

MIke
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2009, 06:11:33 PM »
Mike,

Better check the linens at your residence.  Hancock made off with a couple of my daughter's Hello Kitty bath towels while in Bogeyville.

MIke

So THAT'S what he had hanging on his bag at the Dixie Cup!   :o ::)

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #33 on: November 11, 2009, 06:17:38 PM »
IMO,unless/until the players learn the costs associated with the "extras",not much will get done.The first order of business should be lowering expectations--explaining just how much that extra 5% of manicuring really costs versus how little it really matters to playability.

No Super in his right mind would de-pimp his golf course if the owner didn't run interference with the players.He'd be hung in effigy.Doesn't matter if it's a muni,a CCFAD,or a member-owned club.

The onus is on those who know the problem to educate the great unwashed.I think this would qualify as "for the good of the game".The USGA needs to be front and center educating with every other related organization--Supers,Architects,Tour Pro's,Club Pro's,Club Managers,and everyone else with a stake in this.

Jim Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2009, 07:36:16 PM »
Four foot tall granite tee signs with the hole's lay-out sandblasted into it then painted with appropruate colors, and of course the tee sign sponsor's advertisement below the hole diagram. Uhg-lee. I had to laugh- I was at a course recently that had the hole's handicap stroke sandblasted on it, but some committee had come along since the markers were erected and re-assigned the strokes, so all the signs were woing!!
"Hope and fear, hope and Fear, that's what people see when they play golf. Not me. I only see happiness."

" Two things I beleive in: good shoes and a good car. Alligator shoes and a Cadillac."

Moe Norman

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #35 on: November 11, 2009, 08:29:47 PM »
Mike,

Better check the linens at your residence.  Hancock made off with a couple of my daughter's Hello Kitty bath towels while in Bogeyville.

MIke

Mike,
If you need them back I will send them to you.....he had them wrapped nicely and left them as a gift with us...... ;)
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #36 on: November 11, 2009, 11:01:07 PM »


My favorite pimp is the tee sign, sticking up near the tee, indicating the hole number,  yardage, etc. 

The 'spinner' treatment would be a diagram of the hole on the tee sign.

The 'urban package' often also includes poles in the fairway.



How about those tee signs with the mesh green for a tee or marker to indicate hole location indicators?  Don't see many of those anymore.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #37 on: November 12, 2009, 07:06:27 AM »
Mike,

Better check the linens at your residence.  Hancock made off with a couple of my daughter's Hello Kitty bath towels while in Bogeyville.

MIke

He stole mine too ..... wait, nevermind, I dont have Hello Kitty bath towels.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

JSPayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #38 on: November 12, 2009, 10:20:33 AM »
Mike,

Believe it or not, I'm on page with everything you've said......with the exception of your idea that there's no need for expensive irrigation systems. And I don't know if you'll truly understand or appreciate the value and savings that I can GUARANTEE you are achieved through a properly designed, installed and maintained automatic irrigation system unless you work on or for a golf course at a managerial level. Maybe if you live where it rains alot the value doesn't seem as high, but I'll tell you for a fact that a top of the line irrigation system in California, where water quality and availability are becoming as valuable as GOLD is well worth the investment.

On the other topics, I am merely trying to make a point that much of what you see and dislike is merely the attempt of those of us who have to maintain a property AFTER the initial design and construction was completed to deal with all the poorly thought out things that are already implemented. As you can tell in my conversation with Tom, many of these "overkill" issues simply need to be squashed at conception, because once they've been built or implemented, it's often near impossible to go back. If a golf course never had bottled water or drinking fountains, the majority of people would know that and come up with their own solution. But the moment it's there, then you try to take it away, there is uproar, from members and/or public, and unfortnuately there always seems to surface a litigious individual or two that in turn makes the super or GMs life a living hell for trying to take away such a "perk" (or in their eyes "necessity"). Thus, it's easier (and sometimes cheaper) to just continue the way things are than try to make the change.

Similarly, if bunkers are designed with proper forethought from the beginning regarding slopes, grasses and irrigation needs, micro irrigation won't be necessary. ODG supers very well DID use walkmowers (you think they had mechanized triplexes way back in the day?), very similar to the push reel mowers you can use on your backyard today. If you don't want to use them, the approaches/surrounds need to be designed so that a larger machine (triplex) can mow it and get a proper quality of cut. Ballwashers? Get them the hell off the course. They're stupid. I hate them. Rub your ball on the grass or your towel to clean it off. But like the water, once they're there, good luck taking them away.

Here's another that very few have mentioned: yardage plates or markers on EVERYTHING. Biggest waste of time/money/labor/thought etc etc I've ever known. Most golfers think they couldn't live without them. How do the members of SFGC and Ballyneal et al. survive I wonder? Tee yardage monument have to be trimmed around. Sprinklers have to always be trimmed if used for yardage. 150 yd rocks/trees/etc often just look completely out of place. I will have to say that I thought yardage poles in the fairways were ridiculous. But I inherited them on the course I work at now and you know what? They're the best idea besides no marking at all that I know of. They're visible from everywhere, so there's no need to go searching, you can eyeball everything pretty easy. They're low maintenance, no trimming needed, just pull them, mow over the hole, then put them back. And they serve as shot line targets from the tee, which may not be necessary, but helps from having golfers clueless about the layout of the hole driving all the way up to mid fairway to see where the best spot to hit their drive should be then returning to the tee to hit.

So look, there's alot we could definetely do without. But what the focus should be from this point forward is to STOP any courses who don't have these distractions from implementing them. In the end, if you have these "perks" already in place, the bulk of the money has been spent installing and purchasing the items. The savings made in labor and mantenance are often minimal. MUCH more money could be saved by saving on water costs, cheaper fertilizer, using less pesitcides, etc. THOSE are the big ticket items. So while getting rid of the "pimping" may improve how you think the golf course looks and make you happy, if you're looking to save dollars, you're going to see very little savings from eliminating all the excess "stuff." Focus on the big picture, not the superfluous details and you'll have alot more success.
"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best, night and day, to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any human being can fight; and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #39 on: November 12, 2009, 01:53:01 PM »
Mr Payne

That was an excellent rant and very enjoyable to read. Two things, I hear what you say about trying to make changes after the fact but thats what the did in the old days, make adjustments as they went along. What a super or greenkeeper needs to do is give a greens convener/committee some direction. Each succeeding convener/committee wants to make its own mark and that is usually by adding something such as ball washers, benches behind trees etc. If you could convince them that the course would look better without some added ornament then you might just start a trend the other way and each successive committee would be fighting over themselves to go down the minimalist route.

Totally agree about markers on the course and the best example of how it should be done that I've seen is Muirfield which has a small stakes (12 inches high) at the back of the tee with the yardage on it. A course that is completely free from clutter.

Niall

JSPayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2009, 01:58:57 PM »
Niall,

Couldn't agree more. Like many of the hot button issues in society at large today, it's going to take more of an effort on educating and encouraging the next or current generation to implement change than to try and get the older generations to rethink or undo what they've already learned or done.
"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best, night and day, to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any human being can fight; and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2009, 04:08:53 PM »
Fertilizers and pesticides and water are NOT the big ticket items, labor is.

Labor consistently eats up about 2/3 of any golf course budget the world over. I have the experience to know this, and could also go digging for the data, if it comes to an argument.

Presently, my labor budget, including things like social security and employee insurance, runs 65% of budget. Fertilizer, pesticides, and water, including irrigation system operating costs, are about 10%.  Admittedly, on some courses, water could be higher, but it would rarely go over 10% by itself, and it never comes close to the amount spent on labor.

The rest goes like this, spare parts, 5%, fuels and oils 3%, sand and gravel, 3%, sod and seed, 1%, and followed by a dozen or so little items in the 0.1-2% range.

If I'm looking to cut costs, labor intensive practices are logically the first consideration. Besdies, labor on a golf course can produce such ephemeral results. Once you've spent it, it' evaporates forever. Money spent on concrete materials might stay with you, but a week after mowing you're right back to square one.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2009, 04:15:10 PM »
Fertilizers and pesticides and water are NOT the big ticket items, labor is.

Labor consistently eats up about 2/3 of any golf course budget the world over. I have the experience to know this, and could also go digging for the data, if it comes to an argument.

Presently, my labor budget, including things like social security and employee insurance, runs 65% of budget. Fertilizer, pesticides, and water, including irrigation system operating costs, are about 10% combined.  Admittedly, on some courses, water could be higher, but it would rarely go over 10% by itself, and it never comes close to the amount spent on labor.

The rest goes like this, spare parts, 5%, fuels and oils 3%, sand and gravel, 3%, sod and seed, 1%, and followed by a dozen or so little items in the 0.1-2% range.

If I'm looking to cut costs, labor intensive practices are logically the first consideration. Besdies, labor on a golf course can produce such ephemeral results. Once you've spent it, it' evaporates forever. Money spent on concrete materials might stay with you, but a week after mowing you're right back to square one.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2009, 04:26:40 PM »
Mike,

Believe it or not, I'm on page with everything you've said......with the exception of your idea that there's no need for expensive irrigation systems. And I don't know if you'll truly understand or appreciate the value and savings that I can GUARANTEE you are achieved through a properly designed, installed and maintained automatic irrigation system unless you work on or for a golf course at a managerial level. Maybe if you live where it rains alot the value doesn't seem as high, but I'll tell you for a fact that a top of the line irrigation system in California, where water quality and availability are becoming as valuable as GOLD is well worth the investment.  OK..IN CALIFORNIA...KNOW NOTHING OF WATER THERE....BUT OTHER PLACES...WE WILL HAVE TO ARGUE THERE...

On the other topics, I am merely trying to make a point that much of what you see and dislike is merely the attempt of those of us who have to maintain a property AFTER the initial design and construction was completed to deal with all the poorly thought out things that are already implemented. As you can tell in my conversation with Tom, many of these "overkill" issues simply need to be squashed at conception, because once they've been built or implemented, it's often near impossible to go back. If a golf course never had bottled water or drinking fountains, the majority of people would know that and come up with their own solution. But the moment it's there, then you try to take it away, there is uproar, from members and/or public, and unfortnuately there always seems to surface a litigious individual or two that in turn makes the super or GMs life a living hell for trying to take away such a "perk" (or in their eyes "necessity"). Thus, it's easier (and sometimes cheaper) to just continue the way things are than try to make the change. NOT ALL THINGS ARE POORLY THOUGHT OUT....MUCH IS ADDITONAL ON TOP OF WHAT WAS PLANED OR THOUGHT OUT.....

Similarly, if bunkers are designed with proper forethought from the beginning regarding slopes, grasses and irrigation needs, micro irrigation won't be necessary. ODG supers very well DID use walkmowers (you think they had mechanized triplexes way back in the day?), very similar to the push reel mowers you can use on your backyard today. If you don't want to use them, the approaches/surrounds need to be designed so that a larger machine (triplex) can mow it and get a proper quality of cut. Ballwashers? Get them the hell off the course. They're stupid. I hate them. Rub your ball on the grass or your towel to clean it off. But like the water, once they're there, good luck taking them away. I SOLD TURF EQUIPMENT FOR A GOD MANY YEARS ...DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY WALK MOWERS TORO MANUFACTURED IN 1984?  LESS THAN 100......SURE THE ODG SUPTS USED THEM UNTIL THE TRIPLEX CAME ALONG AND THERE WERE OBVIOUSLY DRAWBACKS....NO ONE KNEW HOW TO HANDLE THE CLEAN-UP CUTS BUT NOW ONE CAN GET AN EXCELLENT CUT WITH A TRIPLEX AND DO A CLEAN UP CUT WITH A WALKER EVERY OTHER DAY.....

Here's another that very few have mentioned: yardage plates or markers on EVERYTHING. Biggest waste of time/money/labor/thought etc etc I've ever known. Most golfers think they couldn't live without them. How do the members of SFGC and Ballyneal et al. survive I wonder? Tee yardage monument have to be trimmed around. Sprinklers have to always be trimmed if used for yardage. 150 yd rocks/trees/etc often just look completely out of place. I will have to say that I thought yardage poles in the fairways were ridiculous. But I inherited them on the course I work at now and you know what? They're the best idea besides no marking at all that I know of. They're visible from everywhere, so there's no need to go searching, you can eyeball everything pretty easy. They're low maintenance, no trimming needed, just pull them, mow over the hole, then put them back. And they serve as shot line targets from the tee, which may not be necessary, but helps from having golfers clueless about the layout of the hole driving all the way up to mid fairway to see where the best spot to hit their drive should be then returning to the tee to hit. I AGREE RE THE POLES

So look, there's alot we could definetely do without. But what the focus should be from this point forward is to STOP any courses who don't have these distractions from implementing them. In the end, if you have these "perks" already in place, the bulk of the money has been spent installing and purchasing the items. The savings made in labor and mantenance are often minimal. MUCH more money could be saved by saving on water costs, cheaper fertilizer, using less pesitcides, etc. THOSE are the big ticket items. So while getting rid of the "pimping" may improve how you think the golf course looks and make you happy, if you're looking to save dollars, you're going to see very little savings from eliminating all the excess "stuff." Focus on the big picture, not the superfluous details and you'll have alot more success.
  LABOR IS THE KEY.....MUCH HIGHER PERCENTAGE OF BUDGET THAM CHEM/FERT....IMHO YOU CUT LABOR BY ELIMINATING THE EDGES( MULCH AROUND TREES, TRIMMING ROUGHTS, RAKING ETC)  WE ARE NEAR THE POINT WHERE NONE OF THIS IS AN ARGUMENT OR A CHOICE..IT WILL BE A NECESSITY....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Anthony Gray

Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2009, 04:34:19 PM »
Mike,

Believe it or not, I'm on page with everything you've said......with the exception of your idea that there's no need for expensive irrigation systems. And I don't know if you'll truly understand or appreciate the value and savings that I can GUARANTEE you are achieved through a properly designed, installed and maintained automatic irrigation system unless you work on or for a golf course at a managerial level. Maybe if you live where it rains alot the value doesn't seem as high, but I'll tell you for a fact that a top of the line irrigation system in California, where water quality and availability are becoming as valuable as GOLD is well worth the investment.  OK..IN CALIFORNIA...KNOW NOTHING OF WATER THERE....BUT OTHER PLACES...WE WILL HAVE TO ARGUE THERE...

On the other topics, I am merely trying to make a point that much of what you see and dislike is merely the attempt of those of us who have to maintain a property AFTER the initial design and construction was completed to deal with all the poorly thought out things that are already implemented. As you can tell in my conversation with Tom, many of these "overkill" issues simply need to be squashed at conception, because once they've been built or implemented, it's often near impossible to go back. If a golf course never had bottled water or drinking fountains, the majority of people would know that and come up with their own solution. But the moment it's there, then you try to take it away, there is uproar, from members and/or public, and unfortnuately there always seems to surface a litigious individual or two that in turn makes the super or GMs life a living hell for trying to take away such a "perk" (or in their eyes "necessity"). Thus, it's easier (and sometimes cheaper) to just continue the way things are than try to make the change. NOT ALL THINGS ARE POORLY THOUGHT OUT....MUCH IS ADDITONAL ON TOP OF WHAT WAS PLANED OR THOUGHT OUT.....

Similarly, if bunkers are designed with proper forethought from the beginning regarding slopes, grasses and irrigation needs, micro irrigation won't be necessary. ODG supers very well DID use walkmowers (you think they had mechanized triplexes way back in the day?), very similar to the push reel mowers you can use on your backyard today. If you don't want to use them, the approaches/surrounds need to be designed so that a larger machine (triplex) can mow it and get a proper quality of cut. Ballwashers? Get them the hell off the course. They're stupid. I hate them. Rub your ball on the grass or your towel to clean it off. But like the water, once they're there, good luck taking them away. I SOLD TURF EQUIPMENT FOR A GOD MANY YEARS ...DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY WALK MOWERS TORO MANUFACTURED IN 1984?  LESS THAN 100......SURE THE ODG SUPTS USED THEM UNTIL THE TRIPLEX CAME ALONG AND THERE WERE OBVIOUSLY DRAWBACKS....NO ONE KNEW HOW TO HANDLE THE CLEAN-UP CUTS BUT NOW ONE CAN GET AN EXCELLENT CUT WITH A TRIPLEX AND DO A CLEAN UP CUT WITH A WALKER EVERY OTHER DAY.....

Here's another that very few have mentioned: yardage plates or markers on EVERYTHING. Biggest waste of time/money/labor/thought etc etc I've ever known. Most golfers think they couldn't live without them. How do the members of SFGC and Ballyneal et al. survive I wonder? Tee yardage monument have to be trimmed around. Sprinklers have to always be trimmed if used for yardage. 150 yd rocks/trees/etc often just look completely out of place. I will have to say that I thought yardage poles in the fairways were ridiculous. But I inherited them on the course I work at now and you know what? They're the best idea besides no marking at all that I know of. They're visible from everywhere, so there's no need to go searching, you can eyeball everything pretty easy. They're low maintenance, no trimming needed, just pull them, mow over the hole, then put them back. And they serve as shot line targets from the tee, which may not be necessary, but helps from having golfers clueless about the layout of the hole driving all the way up to mid fairway to see where the best spot to hit their drive should be then returning to the tee to hit. I AGREE RE THE POLES

So look, there's alot we could definetely do without. But what the focus should be from this point forward is to STOP any courses who don't have these distractions from implementing them. In the end, if you have these "perks" already in place, the bulk of the money has been spent installing and purchasing the items. The savings made in labor and mantenance are often minimal. MUCH more money could be saved by saving on water costs, cheaper fertilizer, using less pesitcides, etc. THOSE are the big ticket items. So while getting rid of the "pimping" may improve how you think the golf course looks and make you happy, if you're looking to save dollars, you're going to see very little savings from eliminating all the excess "stuff." Focus on the big picture, not the superfluous details and you'll have alot more success.
  LABOR IS THE KEY.....MUCH HIGHER PERCENTAGE OF BUDGET THAM CHEM/FERT....IMHO YOU CUT LABOR BY ELIMINATING THE EDGES( MULCH AROUND TREES, TRIMMING ROUGHTS, RAKING ETC)  WE ARE NEAR THE POINT WHERE NONE OF THIS IS AN ARGUMENT OR A CHOICE..IT WILL BE A NECESSITY....


  Nice post Mr Mucci


Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #45 on: November 12, 2009, 04:37:53 PM »
Mike,

Believe it or not, I'm on page with everything you've said......with the exception of your idea that there's no need for expensive irrigation systems. And I don't know if you'll truly understand or appreciate the value and savings that I can GUARANTEE you are achieved through a properly designed, installed and maintained automatic irrigation system unless you work on or for a golf course at a managerial level. Maybe if you live where it rains alot the value doesn't seem as high, but I'll tell you for a fact that a top of the line irrigation system in California, where water quality and availability are becoming as valuable as GOLD is well worth the investment.  OK..IN CALIFORNIA...KNOW NOTHING OF WATER THERE....BUT OTHER PLACES...WE WILL HAVE TO ARGUE THERE...

On the other topics, I am merely trying to make a point that much of what you see and dislike is merely the attempt of those of us who have to maintain a property AFTER the initial design and construction was completed to deal with all the poorly thought out things that are already implemented. As you can tell in my conversation with Tom, many of these "overkill" issues simply need to be squashed at conception, because once they've been built or implemented, it's often near impossible to go back. If a golf course never had bottled water or drinking fountains, the majority of people would know that and come up with their own solution. But the moment it's there, then you try to take it away, there is uproar, from members and/or public, and unfortnuately there always seems to surface a litigious individual or two that in turn makes the super or GMs life a living hell for trying to take away such a "perk" (or in their eyes "necessity"). Thus, it's easier (and sometimes cheaper) to just continue the way things are than try to make the change. NOT ALL THINGS ARE POORLY THOUGHT OUT....MUCH IS ADDITONAL ON TOP OF WHAT WAS PLANED OR THOUGHT OUT.....

Similarly, if bunkers are designed with proper forethought from the beginning regarding slopes, grasses and irrigation needs, micro irrigation won't be necessary. ODG supers very well DID use walkmowers (you think they had mechanized triplexes way back in the day?), very similar to the push reel mowers you can use on your backyard today. If you don't want to use them, the approaches/surrounds need to be designed so that a larger machine (triplex) can mow it and get a proper quality of cut. Ballwashers? Get them the hell off the course. They're stupid. I hate them. Rub your ball on the grass or your towel to clean it off. But like the water, once they're there, good luck taking them away. I SOLD TURF EQUIPMENT FOR A GOD MANY YEARS ...DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY WALK MOWERS TORO MANUFACTURED IN 1984?  LESS THAN 100......SURE THE ODG SUPTS USED THEM UNTIL THE TRIPLEX CAME ALONG AND THERE WERE OBVIOUSLY DRAWBACKS....NO ONE KNEW HOW TO HANDLE THE CLEAN-UP CUTS BUT NOW ONE CAN GET AN EXCELLENT CUT WITH A TRIPLEX AND DO A CLEAN UP CUT WITH A WALKER EVERY OTHER DAY.....

Here's another that very few have mentioned: yardage plates or markers on EVERYTHING. Biggest waste of time/money/labor/thought etc etc I've ever known. Most golfers think they couldn't live without them. How do the members of SFGC and Ballyneal et al. survive I wonder? Tee yardage monument have to be trimmed around. Sprinklers have to always be trimmed if used for yardage. 150 yd rocks/trees/etc often just look completely out of place. I will have to say that I thought yardage poles in the fairways were ridiculous. But I inherited them on the course I work at now and you know what? They're the best idea besides no marking at all that I know of. They're visible from everywhere, so there's no need to go searching, you can eyeball everything pretty easy. They're low maintenance, no trimming needed, just pull them, mow over the hole, then put them back. And they serve as shot line targets from the tee, which may not be necessary, but helps from having golfers clueless about the layout of the hole driving all the way up to mid fairway to see where the best spot to hit their drive should be then returning to the tee to hit. I AGREE RE THE POLES

So look, there's alot we could definetely do without. But what the focus should be from this point forward is to STOP any courses who don't have these distractions from implementing them. In the end, if you have these "perks" already in place, the bulk of the money has been spent installing and purchasing the items. The savings made in labor and mantenance are often minimal. MUCH more money could be saved by saving on water costs, cheaper fertilizer, using less pesitcides, etc. THOSE are the big ticket items. So while getting rid of the "pimping" may improve how you think the golf course looks and make you happy, if you're looking to save dollars, you're going to see very little savings from eliminating all the excess "stuff." Focus on the big picture, not the superfluous details and you'll have alot more success.
  LABOR IS THE KEY.....MUCH HIGHER PERCENTAGE OF BUDGET THAM CHEM/FERT....IMHO YOU CUT LABOR BY ELIMINATING THE EDGES( MULCH AROUND TREES, TRIMMING ROUGHTS, RAKING ETC)  WE ARE NEAR THE POINT WHERE NONE OF THIS IS AN ARGUMENT OR A CHOICE..IT WILL BE A NECESSITY....


  Nice post Mr Mucci



LOOK MR ANATOMY...
YOU LIKE THAT UHH?
I DID IT BECAUSE IT IS MUCH EASIER NOW THAT THE POST ARE SET UP WHERE I CAN DO COLOR...BEFOR I DID NOT KNOW HOW TO DO SUCH....NERD....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #46 on: November 12, 2009, 04:39:33 PM »
Every one of these issues depends on perspective.  In China, I've been told that expensive irrigation controls are not worth the money, because for that kind of cash, at their labor rates, they could pay a couple of guys to be out there every day for life watching it over!

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #47 on: November 12, 2009, 04:44:17 PM »
Every one of these issues depends on perspective.  In China, I've been told that expensive irrigation controls are not worth the money, because for that kind of cash, at their labor rates, they could pay a couple of guys to be out there every day for life watching it over!

Tom,
Same in some of the Latin countries.....they would rather have the jobs....I have even considered quick couplers.....also, we once sent two 72 groundsmasters down for mowing roughs but they continued to do so with machetes....and at $1.10 an hour it probably came out about the same....who is to say who is right....modern industrialization methods have really put a lot out of work here....check out the unibombers manifesto..he really gets into this theory..... ;)
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2009, 04:58:56 PM »
Mike:

For that matter, I'm pretty sure that Muirfield (Scotland) still has no automatic greens irrigation ... just quick couplers.

They just figure it is less likely that the superintendent or an assistant will over-water the greens if they have to stand there and do it themselves!

JSPayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pimp my course
« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2009, 05:02:40 PM »
Joe Hancock stayed at the house one nite last week on way to the Dixie Cup and we spent the day riding golf courses etc.  I was bitching about the "edges and how much money is spent on maintenance today that was never considered just 20 years ago....AND Joe mentioned the pimping of so many supts today.....not to condemn the supt for such but we are coming into times when much of this stuff will be eliminated when it can and in many of the courses where pimping is built into the design...who know what will happen....
Anyway...give me some pimping examples that can go away....Il start.

painted cup edges
bunker irrigation heads
landscaped ball washer complexes
green colored sand for divot fill
walked mowed tee stripes centered on tee and shaded symetrically to the edges
walked mowed approaches
$50 yard bunker sand



I never said labor WASN'T a huge expense, but the majority of examples of "pimping" we could do without didn't involve one bit of labor. And the ones that did. I don't disagree with at all. Let's take your original post for example:

Painted cups- Agreed. Don't do it. Waste of time even if it is 3-mins per hole. Unless you really love the crisp edge all day that Mr. Galea talks about.
Bunker irrigation heads - Saves on handwatering labor time and water costs; initial install = costly, total future labor savings = HUGE (why is this even here? you want bunker edges to turn to dirt? I don't understand)
Landscaped ball washer complexes - If landscaped = only mulch or decomposed granite, this saves the labor of weedeating/trimming. I already saved labor at my course doing this, specifically: Trimming 2x/month =8 hrs/month = 96 hrs/year; ROI on cost of DG = less than 1 year
Green Divot Sand - Agreed. Waste of time.....and money.
Walk mowed tees - Agreed. Purely for aesthetics. Absolutely no need to ever walk mow any tee, unless it's built too small for a triplex then, again, it's a design issue
Walk mowed approaches - Already addressed. I only don't agree where the walk mowing is necessary due to design constraints on using a larger machine.
$50/yard bunker sand - Agreed. Fill them with compost for all I care. They're hazards. Don't hit your ball there.

So if you're going to continue the conversation, give some solid examples of SIGNIFICANT LABOR SAVINGS. I think you'll find that most aren't even things that "pimp" out a golf course at all, but merely involve letting a course get rough around the edges, let grass go off color, and let the quality and height of cut of areas get worse. The majority of labor is spent mowing grass. If you can reduce maintained acerage, slow the growth of the grass down, or other such large scale impacts, then you can talk about savings. Otherwise, my point still stands.....don't keep "investing" in worthless crap and decorations for the course if you want to save money. The initial costs and labor required to maintain the area and the object itself are where significant superfluous dollars can be saved.

BTW Steve, it does no good to talk percentages of total budget, because there is no realistic way to EVER get labor to be a low percentage item. It will always be in the 50+% range even on an extremely efficient golf course. I challange you to tell me the MINIMUM payroll it would take to maintain a regulation 6500 yard 18 hole golf course to such minimal standards that a course could be profitable as a golf course alone (i.e. without pro shop or F&B revenue).
"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best, night and day, to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any human being can fight; and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

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