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Bill_McBride

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Re: St George's: built to rival St Andrews
« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2009, 03:07:48 PM »
Thanks Tom, appreciated.

Now come on, won't anyone answer my question?

What are your thoughts on RSG and TOC head to head? Where does each course out-point the other? Or does TOC simply defy comparison?

I seriously couldn't choose one over the other!  Both wonderful links courses, but St George's didn't have quite as much historical feeling to me since I know it's been it's been continuously changed and St Andrews is essentially unchanged for well over 100 years.

BCrosby

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Re: St George's: built to rival St Andrews
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2009, 05:42:30 PM »
Having played both courses a couple of times, Sandwich is the harder course, but much less interesting than TOC. Whatever Sandwich's merits as a test of execution, I didn't end up with much affection for it. 

Out of 10 rounds, I'd play 8 at TOC.

Bob

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: St George's: built to rival St Andrews
« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2009, 05:49:18 PM »
Purves was one of those Scots based in London who changed things.  In their history of Blackheath GC Henderson & Stirk credit the members of Blackheath for expanding the game in England; in particular members helped set up Westward Ho, Hoylake, Great Yarmouth and (Royal) Wimbledon GC.  Purves was a member of both Blackheath and Wimbledon at a time when the role of the most influential club in London moved away from the 7 holes on common ground with busy roads to Wimbledon Common.  What little I know suggests that although both clubs had a Scottish lilt, the members of Blackheath may have been the more boozy and Wimbledon the more cerebral, later adopting the Oxford and Cambridge society.

Purves doesn’t have an entry in Cornish and Whitten or Daniel Wexler’s Book of Golfers and I’d like to know more about him.  Tom where have you written on him?  Wasn’t he also instrumental in setting up Littlestone?

I can’t see any direct comparisons with ST Andrews meaning much.  An ancient course in the city versus the remoteness and scale of Sandwich. Can this be anymore than the expressed desire to find a golfing Mecca, one that could be played on a day trip from London?
Let's make GCA grate again!

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: St George's: built to rival St Andrews
« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2009, 05:54:28 PM »
Having played both courses a couple of times, Sandwich is the harder course, but much less interesting than TOC. Whatever Sandwich's merits as a test of execution, I didn't end up with much affection for it. 

Out of 10 rounds, I'd play 8 at TOC.

Bob


Oddly enough I've walked both courses twice and played them twice and it's still neck and neck. At this stage the history draws me north but the flaws are so apparent.  It will be interesting to watch the Opens comming up in consequetive years.


PS Bob I was hoping you'd see my post above.  Know anything about Purves?
Let's make GCA grate again!

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: St George's: built to rival St Andrews
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2009, 07:35:25 PM »
Rihc said it well. I find them hard to compare but find it interesting from a historical point of view. RSG is the stronger course and omg nothing beats the Open at ST Andrews.

Cristian

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Re: St George's: built to rival St Andrews
« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2009, 07:55:55 PM »
Although the dates aren't right, I would say as a course Prince's is more of an English St Andrews than RSG....

A less dramatic dunescape and holes playing between rather than over dunes.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2009, 07:57:45 PM by Cristian Willaert »

BCrosby

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Re: St George's: built to rival St Andrews
« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2009, 08:53:58 PM »
Ah, but Tony... its imperfections are one of its ineffable charms. ;)

I don't know much about Purves except for some things he wrote on gca. He seemed to hew the party line at the time. Tom MacW has a couple of good paragraphs on Purves in his "Early Architects" piece in the My Opinion file. Purves was not in the design biz for very long.

Bob     

Tom MacWood

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Re: St George's: built to rival St Andrews
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2009, 11:32:48 PM »
Dr. W. Laidlaw Purves – William Laidlaw Purves was born at Edinburgh in 1842, the son of a physician. Purves was educated at Edinburgh University. In contrast to his father initially he turned to law, but then had a change of heart, and while employed in a lawyer’s office began to study medicine. His parents died during these years and at the age of 19 Purves found himself a ship’s doctor operating off the coast of Australia. After three years in Australia he returned to Europe and continued his medical studies at Universities in Berlin, Leipzig, Vienna, Utrecht, and Paris. After his European educational tour he eventually settled in London as a consulting aural surgeon at Guy’s Hospital. Purves had a most successful medical career, becoming ophthalmic and aural surgeon at the Hospital for Diseases of the Nervous System and aural surgeon at the Aural College and Academy for the Blind.

Medicine may have been Purves’s vocation but golf was clearly his passion. He learned the game on the Bruntsfield Links in golf crazed Edinburgh but found a very different situation when he arrived in England. There were but four golf clubs of any note in the entire country – Westward Ho!, Hoylake, Blackheath and Wimbledon. The first two were far from his home in London, and the latter two were nearby but poor substitutes for the real thing. For the next nine years Purves searched Greater London for a perfect site on which to build a golf course. Epping, Epsom, the downs from Reigate to Farnham, Windsor Forest, Bushey, Richmond Park were all prospected. At Epsom he actually marked out a Sunday course in 1875.

The coastal areas within reach of London were also surveyed. Purves inspected the Isle of Wight, New Forest, Southampton, Littlehampton, and Bognor. In 1876 Felixstowe was examined, and a golf course laid out. But Felixstowe was not completely satisfactory, in fact none of the sites were satisfactory, that is until he discovered Sandwich in 1877. Finding the perfect site was only half the battle, for the next several years Purves tried to convince his fellow golfers that the property held amazing potential and they should help finance the project. Finally in 1883 he had generated enough interest to make an offer to secure the land, actually he made four offers, unfortunately all failed. At last in 1887 an offer was accepted, a lease secured and a syndicate of 36 formed. Purves proceeded to lay out the course, and St. Georges was born.

The course immediately drew universal praise, and not long after became a fixture of the Open and Amateur Championships. Although some of the quirkier aspects of the early course are now gone, like the Maiden and Haides, its bones remain very much as Purves originally made them. One must also give credit to Ramsey Hunter, the club’s first professional, who helped to formalize the layout. Purves’s success at Sandwich led to another opportunity in 1888, when at the request of the proprietors of land on the coast near New Romney, he laid out Littlestone. Purves died in 1918 at Hartwick Cottage, his home and one of the oldest residences in Wimbledon.

Rich Goodale

Re: St George's: built to rival St Andrews
« Reply #33 on: November 10, 2009, 03:44:18 AM »
Tom

What did Purves do in regards to the game of golf from 1888 to 1918?  Sandwich and Littlestone are two very big feathers in his cap.  Was GCA so easy for him that he get bored and went back to medicine?

Jamie Barber

Re: St George's: built to rival St Andrews
« Reply #34 on: November 10, 2009, 04:21:24 AM »
I would say as a course Prince's is more of an English St Andrews than RSG....
Take your point but that's only the 1950s re-build. The original course had quite a number of blind shots, back-breakers (over dunes) and was famous for doglegs. At the time of construction it was also considered one of the toughest too (there's a quote by Darwin somewhere to the effect of playing Prince's from the back tees on a windy day was too much for the average golfer).

Scott Warren

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Re: St George's: built to rival St Andrews
« Reply #35 on: November 10, 2009, 04:39:14 AM »
Jamie (and others):

This pic of Princes is from Tom MacWood's The Early Architects series in the IMO section of this site.

As best I can tell, the pic is taken from above St George's with the old Prince's clubhouse in the bottom right, and the 13th green and 14th fairway of RSG in the bottom of the pic.


Jamie Barber

Re: St George's: built to rival St Andrews
« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2009, 05:04:23 AM »
Thanks Scott, your positioning is spot on. I guess the left hand edge is about where the Suez crosses.

The old 1st tee is next to the clubhouse, playing down to what is now 4th Shore (but from the opposite direction), and you can just make out the 2nd which was a semi blind dogleg right I think. The 18th plays from somewhere near the current green of 6th Shore back towards the clubhouse to the current 5th Shore green, whilst the 17th is similar to the current 6th Dunes.

Nowadays, there are quite a few holes now on the seaward side which back then was just unused ground.

One thing that intrigues me is the original course was how it was much more heavily bunkered than the current one. One obvious improvement for the current course IMHO would be better bunkering (I think if it were bunkered like Deal it would definitely improve the course and peoples' perception of it).
« Last Edit: November 10, 2009, 05:06:58 AM by Jamie Barber »

Scott Warren

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Re: St George's: built to rival St Andrews
« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2009, 05:09:02 AM »
Agree completely on the bunkering, Jamie. Look at all those centreline bunkers on 17 and 18 above!

Jamie Barber

Re: St George's: built to rival St Andrews
« Reply #38 on: November 10, 2009, 05:18:34 AM »
18 I'll give you, but 17 is not that dissimilar from now. The centreline bunkers are larger (now there are 2 or three pots) and there is one short right off the tee. I guess the patch just above that one is sandy waste, rather than proper bunkers (it's on top of the dunes). I would imagine the one right in front of the tee is below the level of the tee, but can't tell

Point is well taken though. Too many bunkers now are in the wrong places, whilst some cunning extra bunkering would enhance the course
« Last Edit: November 10, 2009, 05:26:20 AM by Jamie Barber »

Tom MacWood

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Re: St George's: built to rival St Andrews
« Reply #39 on: November 10, 2009, 06:21:32 AM »
Rich
He never left medicine. He authored a number of papers in his area medicine. He was interesting fellow, he was a great collector of antiquities and he wrote books on the authorship of 'Robinson Crusoe', the O-version 'Robeson Cruso' and the first English translation of 'Gil Blas' (his qualification must have been his experiences at sea I'd guess). He was outspoken advocate on the formation of a rules body in order that there might be universal set of rules for the game, and said there sure be representatives from the the north and south involved.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2009, 06:35:39 AM by Tom MacWood »

Tom MacWood

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Re: St George's: built to rival St Andrews
« Reply #40 on: November 10, 2009, 06:23:28 AM »
Jamie (and others):

This pic of Princes is from Tom MacWood's The Early Architects series in the IMO section of this site.

As best I can tell, the pic is taken from above St George's with the old Prince's clubhouse in the bottom right, and the 13th green and 14th fairway of RSG in the bottom of the pic.



Wrong golf course - that is Prince's 17th, 18th and 1st.

Scott Warren

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Re: St George's: built to rival St Andrews
« Reply #41 on: November 10, 2009, 06:25:08 AM »
Tom, Purves is also credited with devising the handicapping system still used in the UK and (until they go to the US system in a few months) Australia.

Wrong golf course - that is Prince's 17th, 18th and 1st.

Is it not RSG in the bottom, then the canal that separates it from Princes, then Princes in the other 90% of the pic as I said? As best I can tell, Jamie has ordered the holes as you say: 1st on the right, 18 in the middle, 17 on the left?
« Last Edit: November 10, 2009, 06:28:50 AM by Scott Warren »

Jamie Barber

Re: St George's: built to rival St Andrews
« Reply #42 on: November 10, 2009, 06:31:50 AM »
Scott - you're right, I think Tom misread your message. The canal (the "Suez") doesn't separate the two, but rather runs from top to bottom and I guess is on the left hand edge of your picture. It cross the 14th at RSG, and runs up the right of Prince's 5th Dunes (although little more than a ditch so hardly in play)
« Last Edit: November 10, 2009, 06:33:43 AM by Jamie Barber »

Scott Warren

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Re: St George's: built to rival St Andrews
« Reply #43 on: November 10, 2009, 06:33:51 AM »
I know the Suez runs across the 14th fairway, but is there not a narrow waterway also along the boundary?

Tom MacWood

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Re: St George's: built to rival St Andrews
« Reply #44 on: November 10, 2009, 06:34:32 AM »
Yes, that is Sandwich across the ditch. I guess I didn't understand what you were saying.

Jamie Barber

Re: St George's: built to rival St Andrews
« Reply #45 on: November 10, 2009, 06:37:14 AM »
I know the Suez runs across the 14th fairway, but is there not a narrow waterway also along the boundary?
Not all the way, it kind of crosses the 14th, turns 90 degree and runs along the boundary for about 50 yds, and then turns 90 again back across Prince's. I can't make out any of it on the photo (think it's further left).

That is where I go to stock up on golf balls, with the OOB on the 14th hard on the right edge, it's a popular spot to slice one into the hay :)

*EDIT* from Google maps you can see in fact two ditches join (red), the boundary is blue. I think this shows also that the original green for the 16th was further left than the current 5th Dunes green - that's all just hay now.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2009, 06:45:30 AM by Jamie Barber »

Scott Warren

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Re: St George's: built to rival St Andrews
« Reply #46 on: November 10, 2009, 06:54:52 AM »
Cheers Jamie.

Kevin Pallier

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Re: St George's: built to rival St Andrews
« Reply #47 on: November 10, 2009, 09:11:44 AM »
So comparing the two courses today, how well does St George's stack up against TOC?

<snip>

I was only able to play TOC once when I ventured north and have since played RSG twice, so my observations are limited by that, but after giving the matter some thought I am inclined to say I prefer St George's.

Scott

Define what you mean by "stack up" ?

I certainly think RSG is the harder course and I like the way it moves from the F9 dunes to the open links on the B9.

It's a mighty fine course possibly my favourite in England and as such "stacks up" pretty well to my favourite in Scotland  8)

BCrosby

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Re: St George's: built to rival St Andrews
« Reply #48 on: November 10, 2009, 09:21:39 AM »
Looking at the aerial, note the 13th green at RstG in the bottom right corner. First, it's huge. Second, it's a perfect rectangle. Wow.

What is the date of the picture?

Bob

 

Bill_McBride

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Re: St George's: built to rival St Andrews
« Reply #49 on: November 10, 2009, 09:52:40 AM »
I would say as a course Prince's is more of an English St Andrews than RSG....
Take your point but that's only the 1950s re-build. The original course had quite a number of blind shots, back-breakers (over dunes) and was famous for doglegs. At the time of construction it was also considered one of the toughest too (there's a quote by Darwin somewhere to the effect of playing Prince's from the back tees on a windy day was too much for the average golfer).

Gene Sarazen's autobiography has a long hole by hole description of Prince's, where he won the 1932 Open Championship with an ancient caddy.  It's a great story.  There was one par 5 with a blind second shot where Sarazen made at least one eagle and a couple of birdies, whacking his brassie over the dune.

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