[Scott Warren]

I have been reading that it was a major goal of Dr Laidlaw Purves in designing the course at Sandwich to create a rival for The Old Course at St Andrews - that in mind, it seems the name is not likely a coincidence (for the foreigners, the English flag is St George's Cross and the Scottish flag is St Andrew's Cross).

So comparing the two courses today, how well does St George's stack up against TOC?

I was only able to play TOC once when I ventured north and have since played RSG twice, so my observations are limited by that, but after giving the matter some thought I am inclined to say I prefer St George's.

I think green complexes like 3, 4, 8, 9, 10, 11, 14, 16, 17 and 18 at Sandwich are comfortably the equal of the best at TOC. I feel those greens were an equal test from 100m+ out, but offered more questions when playing recovery shots around the green. Having said that, I thought TOC's greens were slightly more difficult and fun to putt.

RSG's doglegs at 2, 5, 8, 12, 13 and 17 add some variety that, IMO, is missing at TOC.

St George's has quirk, charm and challenge in spades. I also don't think RSG has a weak hole and has plentiful variety, where I would say 8 and 9 at TOC aren't IMO great golf holes, and the repetitive strategy of 2-4 is possibly a weakness.

I don't profess to "know" these two courses after such limited play, but what say others familiar with both courses?

[Ally Mcintosh]

To my detriment, I have still never seen St.Georges... But I believe it has changed considerably since that initial design... Whereas TOC has obviously changed... but to a much lesser degree...

[Rich Goodale]

Scott

St. George's is undoubtedly a "better" golf course than the Old Course, for many of the reasons you suggest, but so are a number of other tracks in the UK.  What it is neither, however, is a "better" venue for an Open nor a "home" for the great game of golf.  As the late great George Carlin once said (in comparing football to baseball), in the first one you "SCORE" and in the other you "come home."

Rich

PS--There was a lot of lobbying by the Sassenachs around the turn of the last century to move the R&A from St. Andrews to England, led by Hutchinson.  Fortunately, these efforts failed.

rfg

[Tom MacWood]

That story seems a little far fetched to me. To rival TOC in what way? Architecturally? As a championship venue?

Sandwich was built in 1887 and I don't think anyone was talking about architecture in those days. And the Open was relatively young at that point too, and mostly a Scottish affair.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Marketing I would suspect, Tom....

Same with Lahinch in Ireland...

"This will be the St.Andrews of x,y,z!"

[Melvyn Morrow]

I agree with Tom (got to stop doing this), well with his first sentence, however I will throw in a potential reason for that thought. Around the mid to 1870’s to late 1880’s many of the clubs in GB were looking to TOC as the model for there courses. By that I am referring to 18 holes, examples that come to mind are Dornoch, North Berwick both felt the need to extend to the 18 of St Andrews. Therefore, I would agree that St George's was built to the St Andrew's model but not necessary as her rival.

As for architecture as Tom mentions may not had been talked about it under that name but course design certainly was. Every report you read describes the course, its merits (offering a quality of challenges), its balance with the local environment and some go further and describe the holes. In my book that is architecture.

Architecture started when people started designing the course in preference to just playing over the local wind swept links. That started in earnest with Allan Robertson in the late 1840’s.

As for the Open being relatively young in 1887, that would be 27 years old, which in your terms is nearly a lift time. The Open as you quite rightly point out did not move out of Scotland until 1894 some 33 years after the first one at Prestwick.   

I believe it right to say it was modelled upon TOC but built as a rival, I do not see that, but then as always it is just MHO.

Melvyn

[Mark Chaplin]

Scott - Sandwich has some relatively new greens 3rd and 14th in my time neither of which I am particularily fond of. The 8th and 11th holes are complete redesigns, the 8th is a new green. I believe the 8th was a par 3 and the 11th a par 4, I think these were remodelled in the 1970s.

[Scott Warren]

Cheers Mark.

As you and Ally both rightly point out, Sandwich has had serious changes, which is why I made sure not to ask in the OP "How successful was Purves?", because it is impossible for any of us to say. Instead I thought that, knowing the (reported) intention of its founder, it might be interesting to look at a head-to-head of RSG and TOC.

I considered a 10RS of the two, but hell, let's be honest, offer me 10 rounds across the two links of any split and I'd be a happy lad!

[Mark Chaplin]

Exactly!

RStG was built as Royal Wimbledon was packed and Purves wanted a course on the coast. I believe they still have a strong RStG/RW membership. It is only fairly recenty that the RStG Board meet at the club rather than in london where the majority of the members reside.

[Rich Goodale]

.....the Open was relatively young at that point too, and mostly a Scottish affair.

That's exactly the point, Tom.  The English hated the fact that this fascinating game was invented elsewhere and seemed to be destined to be run by one of their first Colonies (Scotland).  Even today, these facts stick in their craws.

[Ben Stephens]

Interesting! Each country in the UK/Ireland has a course named after its patron saint

Scotland  - St Andrews
England - Royal St Georges
Wales - Royal St Davids
Ireland - St Patricks (now NLE or defunct)

Would play RSG more than TOC as it is a 'proper' golf course and it is more challenging with the different directions of each hole - the TOC is unique which will not be repeated anywhere in the UK

[Michael Whitaker]

I was most impressed with RStG. It truly feels a "championship" venue from the moment you step onto the property. It is definitely one of the top five UK courses I would recommend someone visit... maybe #1!!! Needless to say I was VERY impressed with the place and look forward to a return visit.

[Tom MacWood]

Rich
I don't think Dr. Purves plans were that grandiose. There were relatively few playing the game in England at the time and only two top notch links courses. I think he was simply trying to create an interesting links to play upon in his neck of the woods. Wasn't Purves a Scot?

[Scott Warren]

Tom, I know you have written about Purves. When you say you think he was merely out to build a course that would interest him, are you basing that on something greater than your own feelings?

The reason I ask: for all the books and websites I can find referring to Purves' desire to build a course that would rival TOC - I am still in search of somewhere that has a first-hand account of what he said/wrote.

[TEPaul]

"Sandwich was built in 1887 and I don't think anyone was talking about architecture in those days."


I agree with that too---sort of. I don't think too many were talking about architecture either or they weren't talking about it that much that far back----at least not the way most of us today think of what is meant by "talking about golf architecture."

As Max Behr said about very early golf (perhaps even as late as 1887) golf (and architecture) was still in its "age of innocence" and that it wasn't until a good while after it began emigrating out of Scotland en masse that people began to tear it apart in an attempt to analyze what its component parts were suppose to mean.  

[Tom MacWood]

Scott
Its based on everything I've read from him and about him. To my knowledge he never expressed a desire to build a rival to St.Andrews, intitially anyway. Perhaps as the game and populariy of the game progressed in England his plans changed, but that was not the goal at the beginning.

[Jamie Barber]

Even today, these facts stick in their craws.

Yeah we all hate the Scots Especially the two in numbers 10 and 11

[Scott Warren]

Thanks Tom, appreciated.

Now come on, won't anyone answer my question?

What are your thoughts on RSG and TOC head to head? Where does each course out-point the other? Or does TOC simply defy comparison?

[TEPaul]

I think it is also historically undeniable that when it came to golf and golf architecture, like with a good many other things that were going on back in those early days, both within and without the realm of athletics, the sense of national pride really ran rampant (competitively) and not just across the GB countries but eventually very much in America.

[Jamie Barber]

Thanks Tom, appreciated.

Now come on, won't anyone answer my question?

What are your thoughts on RSG and TOC head to head? Where does each course out-point the other? Or does TOC simply defy comparison?

I've not played either much, but of my limited experience if I had 10 games, I'd play 9 of them at RSG. TOC didn't really float my boat at all.

The only course so far I prefer to RSG is County Down, but a lot of that is the impossibly wonderous setting and fabulous front 9.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I'm not sure architecture has anything to do with whether Purves wanted to build a course to rival TOC...

St Andrews was undeniably the best known (and probably best) course in Scotland at that time... If you want to make a good course, it seems only natural that you say you want to build a course to rival St.Andrews... It would bring the punters in as well...

[Melvyn Morrow]

Scott

TOC simply defies comparison. As it was in the beginning and shall ever be until the wrath of God states otherwise. She set the standard, she is a great course, perhaps not the best but she is a great course and does certainly defy comparison.

More than 'The First amoung Equals'.

Melvyn

[Sean_A]

I would have thought if Purves was gunning for top spots it would have been with Hoylake for England's top club.  No way was an upstart gonna take the place of the TOC with the R&A as its custodian.  I can't believe Purves would even entertain the idea.  

In terms of quality, I have said it before that I think Sandwich is comfortably the best course in the Open rota.  TOC is a solid notch behind despite its all-world back 9.  The turn holes, 2-6 and the out n' back routing are too much to over-look in terms of being considered among the very, very  best.  What TOC has on just about every course out there is PERFECT terrain.  It is brilliant how the humpty bumpty fairways flow straight into the greens and there is virtually no elevation differences other that which effects shots - not walking.  The only courses I have played which are really in Sandwich's league are Prestwick, Merion and Ballybunion.

I would disagree with Rich or at least qualify Rich's venue statement.  In person, Sandwich is by miles the better venue to see an Open.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Didn't Sandwich have some fairly radical design changes pre-1910 (Darwin's book) but after 1894 when the first Open was held there?... What were they... and who by?

I would have thought if Purves was gunning for top spots it would have been with Hoylake for England's top club.  No way was an upstart gonna take the place of the TOC with the R&A as its custodian.  I can't believe Purves would even entertain the idea. 

You never know, Sean... Again, marketing...

"Sandwich has had more than its share of ups and downs. It was heralded with much blowing of trumpets and without undergoing any period of probation, burst full-fledged in to fame"... Darwin again from 1910...

[TEPaul]

"TOC simply defies comparison."


Melvyn:

I would definitely go with that statement and it seems most of the best golf architecture philosophers and analysts throughout the Golden Age looked at and spoke about TOC in that vein. I think the point of some of them (some of the best of them) was that even if some thought (later) that TOC broke all kinds of architectural rules (later architectural rules) that with TOC that didn't really matter since she evolved from a time when architectural "rules" didn't even exist.

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