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Ronald Montesano

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RTJ
« on: November 07, 2009, 06:29:26 PM »
I remember a specific upper school head whom none of us wished to emulate.  She put me and a chum in charge of the summer program one year.  We swore a blood oath to do everything the opposite way she might:  treat instructors well, listen to parents, smile at the students, etc.  She congratulated us at the end of the summer and we hardly contained our mirth.  With that in mind, I give you

http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Article/Robert-Trent-Jones/1497/Default.aspx

What do the two sons say about the father that reveals or contradicts what you hold dear?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: RTJ
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2009, 11:05:38 PM »
Now there is a loaded question.  But, I'm not loaded, so I'll pass.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RTJ
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2009, 06:49:37 AM »
Anyone out there loaded enough who wants to take a crack at this one?  It requires some extracurricular reading but promises to develop some bantering at best, caustic confrontation at worst.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RTJ
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2009, 07:52:20 AM »
RTJ was the best designer of his era. How could he be faulted for that?

If not RTJ, then who would have built all those courses from the '40's to the '70's?

All those courses would have been built by somebody, in any case. Who, in that time and place, was better? Who was doing minimalist, traditional or golden age retro work in the '50's and '60's?

Where was the market for those things then? Was Jones creating the demand for hs style of course or was he simply giving the customer what he wanted?

People then were selling Cadillac El Dorados, not Prius hybrids.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RTJ
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2009, 08:57:29 AM »
Thanks for the article Ronald.

I've said it before on here, and I'll say it again now, that I really like the RTJ courses I have seen in the past.

I would be curious to hear what people on hear really don't like about his designs, and what they do like.

I'm not sure there there is any argument that golf in America wouldn't be the same without RTJ, but I am interested in what brought his style of design out of favor with the GCA crowd.
H.P.S.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RTJ
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2009, 09:04:58 AM »
Good point on the luxury angle.  Certainly each new thing is a reaction to the current one.  Might this be a contrast without parallel?  Let's say that the RTJ era begat his designs.  Can we say the same thing about minimalism from 1990 to 2010?  I don't think so.  The USA continued to grow during that era, yet a maximalist or minimalist debate happened for the first time.

All right, bear with me, a little stream of consciousness here.  Minimalists from the golden age of design couldn't use big machines because they didn't have them.  As big machines became commonplace, maximalist designers used them in order to completely reshape grounds not previously selected for their natural bent toward golf course design.  (Aside:  can we think of any properties that were reshaped by a designer that would have given a better golf course if left alone?)  From 1970 to 1990, we have the maximalist-minimalist in Pete Dye, the anti RTJ, the guy who doesn't want to do what RTJ is doing.  We get our Fazios, our RTJ 2.0s, our Hills' but we also get our cC, our Hanse, our Doak (I'm speaking purely from a USA perspective here, so feel free to add or subtract from overseas.)  cC, Hanse, Doak could use the big machines to break the land, but they don't.

Here is an interesting question.  Up the road from me, about 3 hours, is Turning Stone Casino.  We have a Smith, an RTJ2 and a Fazio at this resort, all maximalists.  Of the three, the Smith looks the most natural, the RTJ2 plays the toughest and the Fazio plays the most open and easy (ironically, it is the site of the PGA Tour event there.)  The land is upstate New York farmland, not particularly inspiring at first glance.  What would our minimalists have done with those pieces of property (say goodbye is not an option) had they been forced to build a course there?  Would they have eschewed great land moving and found a way to create something tremendous?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

michael damico

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RTJ
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2009, 09:46:57 AM »
build a 90 foot waterfall  ;D

steve and pat i believe make excellent points.

I'm not sure there there is any argument that golf in America wouldn't be the same without RTJ, but I am interested in what brought his style of design out of favor with the GCA crowd.
RTJ was the best designer of his era. How could he be faulted for that?

People then were selling Cadillac El Dorados, not Prius hybrids.

although i haven't broken into the field yet, i would think that there should be a sense of respect for the 'forefathers', but there should always be room for criticism. MacKenzie said to not get caught up in accolades, rather an architect should listen to criticisms.
"without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible"
                                                                -fz

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RTJ
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2009, 10:42:44 AM »
The only RTJ Snr. courses that I have played multiple times have been Spyglass, Mauna Kea, Bellerive, Old Warson and Pauma Valley. I have enjoyed every round played on them. On the whole he did more things right than wrong.

Bob

TEPaul

Re: RTJ
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2009, 11:06:14 AM »
Ronald:

What are you asking us exactly?

Is it what some of us think about RTJ architecture compared to what we hold dear or are you asking us what his sons think of RTJ architecture or RTJ compared to what they hold dear or are you asking us what the two sons think of each other?

All are very different questions that have even greater differences in their accurate answers.  

Some of them may be loaded questions but if I know which of them are I'll be glad to get loaded to answer them for you!  ;)

What the brothers think of each other I view as almost bizarre and frankly just damn sad. It is problematic for some of us who would like to deal more substantially with RTJ's career architectural material which arguably may be some of the most voluminous in the history of golf course architecture. All families surely have their own unique family dynamics but that one---Wow! It's really complex but I've just hoped they both could work individually to tone it down some. I'd recommend a big sibling and brotherly hug for starters----a real one!

Personally, I guess I've played a pretty good number of RTJ's but mostly just once or twice other than The London Hunt Club that I've played a ton and really like. It's quite different from most of the rest of the type and style of architecture I like the most but anyway I really do like the London Hunt for its differences. The fact is it's just very thoughtful to play (particularly depending on the pins).
« Last Edit: November 08, 2009, 11:16:54 AM by TEPaul »

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RTJ
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2009, 04:58:02 PM »
I'm not certain that I'm asking for anything other than a reaction to the article.  It seems that the man, like all prodigious producers (Shakespeare, Lope de Vega, Donald Ross) has more opportunity for success and failure than most other architects.  It is clear that he viewed it as a way to make an elevator (grain, that is) full of money and perhaps not much more.  If someone has proof that he was looking to make a contribution to the advancement of golf, I'd love to learn more.

What is most interesting to me is the variety of style from one course to the next.  He seemed to save one type of architecture for his private club clients and another for his public/resort clients.  He almost phoned it in on some courses, which is a shame.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RTJ
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2009, 05:19:38 PM »
I'm not certain that I'm asking for anything other than a reaction to the article.  It seems that the man, like all prodigious producers (Shakespeare, Lope de Vega, Donald Ross) has more opportunity for success and failure than most other architects.  It is clear that he viewed it as a way to make an elevator (grain, that is) full of money and perhaps not much more.  If someone has proof that he was looking to make a contribution to the advancement of golf, I'd love to learn more.

What is most interesting to me is the variety of style from one course to the next.  He seemed to save one type of architecture for his private club clients and another for his public/resort clients.  He almost phoned it in on some courses, which is a shame.

I don't understand your assumption that RTJ wanted to make, "money and perhaps not much more." There may be no inherent virtue in making money, but there's no inherent sin in it, either. If a man can indulge himself in a passion, be creative and enjoy his work, all the while making a good living, then shouldn't we admire him?
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RTJ
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2009, 05:25:16 PM »
Ronald,

I disagree largely with your assessment.

You talk about him wanting nothing more than to amass a grain silo full of money, but those who were there said (Bobby and Rees, and I have had it personally confirmed elsewhere) that he wasn't nearly so interested in money as doing the work.  Yet, you think you know better in making a broad, unsupported assessment?

Looking back you might say what you say, but much of what RTJ did was groundbreaking.

For that matter, even for those who now question his style, I say that he reflected (and created) his times.  If his style was largely copied even up to today, he was certainly an influence.  And, after WWII, the whole country got into a wave of modernism, perhaps a reaction to a near stoppage of construction work via the depression and WW II that lasted 20 years.  It is not surprising to me that folks of that era wanted what was a new look, full of modernism, and big and bold to reflect the utter lack of self doubt that the USof A had in the post WWII Days.

The current fads towards minimalism and retro looks may be a reaction to all RTJ and others have done, but its exactly the same thought process that drove RTJ to his form of modernism in the 1950's - the overwhelming desire of people to want something "new" and "different."  RTJ went from that to repetitive over 400 courses and 40 years, but then again, what art form doesn't?  You already hear those whispers about Doak and CC, don't you?  (well, maybe not here....) time will tell if this generation of hot archies can avoid the pitfalls of success any better than past generations.  Given all the increase in information and technology we have, I would say they have a fighting chance!

(Qualifier - this is a problem I would love to have!)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RTJ
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2009, 05:35:05 PM »
Nope.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RTJ
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2009, 05:41:52 PM »
"Nope;"?

What does that mean?

Jeff, thank you. That's the point I was trying to make.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RTJ
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2009, 05:50:20 PM »
Nope means nope.  Read what I wrote, read what Jeff wrote, nope.

You guys seem to be on the defensive when no attack has been made.  I can count on my ovaries (of which I have none) how many RTJ threads I've seen on this site.  I'm a fence-sitter on this one, as I've played Crag Burn enough and read about Anglebrook and Spyglass to know that the man could make a traditional golf course.  I've also played Glen Oak and Bristol Harbour and seen how he can force a design on a piece of property.  I'd like to read more of what you and Jeff have to say about RTJ the First.  Balance is a wonderful goal.

I'll add Seven Oaks in Hamilton to the traditional course list (played it) and Heather at Boyne Highlands to the forced design list.  Balance.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2009, 05:52:58 PM by Ronald Montesano »
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Mac Plumart

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Re: RTJ
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2009, 05:51:12 PM »
I'm no expert on the issues concerning golf course architecture, but here is what I've studied and read about...

RTJ and "heroic" golf course architecure go hand in hand.  It is my understanding that the par 3 with a forced water carry that bumps right up to the green was his idea.  And don't 90%+ of courses utilize that idea.  If so, his impact on architecture is still being felt today.

Also, "target golf" is associated with him.  Tighten the fairways by lining them with bunkers and forced golfers to hit spots.  That's attributed to him as well...right?

The first celebrity architect or the first "signature designer".  Another lasting legacy regarding golf course architecture.

Peachtree and Spyglass are perenial Top 100 courses.  Valderamma is an international gem, correct?

So, in my opinion he is one of the most influential golf course architect of all-time.  However, some may not like his contributions or courses, but that is personal opinion.  But the facts are he has been very important to the history of the game.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RTJ
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2009, 05:53:32 PM »
And we're off...that's the goal right there...build on what Mac has stated.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RTJ
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2009, 06:02:21 PM »
Ronald,

You must not have been on the site for very long. There have been numerous RTJ threads over the years, and hundreds of references to his work. I'm sorry the site search engine doesn't do them justice.

I don't think I'm being defensive, only expressing an opinion. Isn't that what this DG is for?

I said I didn't understand one of your statements. Perhaps you could try to expalin it better before psychoanalyzing me.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Matt_Ward

Re: RTJ
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2009, 06:10:50 PM »
My take on this matter is a simple one ...

RTJ was the greatest self-promoter and took the architectural career dimension to another level.

Was he the greatest designer -- even of his time? No, not to me.

His reach and claim came from having well-heeled clients in all corners of the gloibe.

His template style golf design was -- with a few clear exceptions -- quite formulaic. Fortunately, someone like Pete Dye saw what RTJ was doing and he decided for him to be successful he would need to take another design style / motif to make his mark in the field. Fortunately, Pete's interpretation of design has been the overall winner when comparing the two men.

Look at RTJ's overall batting average of total courses done and just how many are still thought of as being stellar type stuff.

The final tally is indeed a small one.

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RTJ
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2009, 06:15:57 PM »
Matt,

I posed the question earlier in the thread, not meaning for it to be rhetorical.

Who was doing better work than RTJ from, say, 1950 to 1980?
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RTJ
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2009, 06:23:24 PM »
http://thecaddyshack.blogspot.com/2007_03_18_archive.html

Let's say we've got no one other than RTJ Senior who spanned that period, although Dick Wilson, Joe Finger and Joe Lee were doing courses in the 1950s.  We had George Fazio, Pete Dye, Desmond Muirhead in the 1960s and 1970s...who else?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Mac Plumart

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Re: RTJ
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2009, 06:24:08 PM »
Steve...I think the answer is no one, but if I am not mistaken:

 Dick Wilson was big in the 50's particularly in Florida;

Cornish hit the scene in the 50's;

As did Red Lawrenece, Ellis Maples, Press Maxwell, and Billy Bell.

The 60's saw Pete Dye, George Fazio, and MUIRHEAD!!!
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RTJ
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2009, 06:27:32 PM »
Ron, sorry for the essentially duplicate post.  I think I was posting at the same time you were.

Nevertheless, I still give the nod to RTJ over Muirhead barely because Stone Harbor's Clashing Rocks 7th hole didn't come around until 1987...if I am remembering correctly!!! ;)
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RTJ
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2009, 06:34:26 PM »
Jeez, I had forgotten about Cornish...he got nearly every commission in New England during that period.  Mr. Blueprint, that one.  I had forgotten Maples, too, which is sad, as he has a bunch in the Carolinas.  Well, this is collaboration...we're getting our list together.  Think the guys will want to have a fantasy draft of these chaps' courses?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RTJ
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2009, 06:56:54 PM »
The few RTJ's I have played didn't do much for me, but then I don't know much about him or his work.  Like Ross, when a guy is involved with that many courses I would think its impossible to pigeon hole him.  Like it or not RTJ was a man of his time and I think his work probably reflects this. 

What is interesting about the article is how different his sons see RTJ as opposed to his reputation.  Again, this is probably doen to the fact that RTJ did so much that trying to pigeon hole him will sound false to folks on another side of the many sided coin.
 
Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

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