[Gordon Irvine]

The debate rolls on should this great hole be a Par 4 or a Par 5 I was asked to remodel the side of the green on the left . It had been a Teeing area but due to it being a bale out area for golfers trying to reach the green in two it at times was dangerous. The surround shapng had to match in with what must be one of the most challenging contoured putting surfaces in UK links golf.

[Mark Chaplin]

Gordon,

I'm firmly in the par 5 camp, whilst the hole is barely 510yds from the back tee as you rightly say this one of the most contoured greens around. Many a time has a 15 yard eagle putt resulted in par, I think the green is too hard to hit as a par 4 and the great pins such as front right would be taken out of play.

It is difficult to believe the area to the left of the green was the 17th tee barely 3 or 4 years ago, it is a testiment to your work that the area looks so natural and in keeping with the flow of the land.

Thanks for your BUDA presentation and welcome aboard!

Mark

[Ronald Montesano]

I would think that a 15 yard eagle putt would often result in par...if it's as contoured as you say, I'm surprised that four putts from that distance aren't more common.

[Gordon Irvine]

Hi Mark good to hear from you. I think it plays better from the front Tee as a Par 4 and this would allow for the second bunker recomended by Martin Ebert to go in on the left beyond the existing bunker. However as always if the wind blows all bets are off.

[Mark Chaplin]

Ronald - 4 putts isn't impossible but extremely rare as the green speed is usually around 10 so while pacey 10 feet putts do not end up 20 feet past the hole. I did have a 15 footer along a subtle ridge on 16 that finished about 8ft left, my oppo had almost the same putt and missed it a similar distance right!

One of the strengths of Deal's greens is the internal contours while the drop front back to front or front to back (2nd, 9th and 15th) is modest.

[Mark Pearce]

When we played it during BUDA it was either still or with a following wind.  Playing it four times with my own ball I think I made 4 5s, two of which really, really should have been 4s (from the very same left side that Gordon reworked).  However, my understanding is that the prevailing wind would be against, which would make a bloody tough par 4.  Whatever, I thought this was an exceptional hole.  Possibly my favourite hole of all 5 courses I played in BUDA week and mostly down to that green site.

[Eric_Terhorst]

Guys,

Why does the "debate roll on?"  Based on your descriptions of the hole (I have never played it) I imagine that both members and visitors who are decent golfers leaving this hole feel 1) great when they've made a 3, or 2) pretty pretty good when they've made a 4, and 3) reasonably satisfied when they've made a 5--barring of course that they did something dumb like miss a 2-footer.  I imagine in match play a golfer with a score of 4 or 5 would draw or win 9 times out of ten.   Why is there a heated debate about what it's called--does this determination affect the stroke index?  That is, if it's in the top 6 hardest holes, better players might often be giving away a stroke. 

...As a par 4...the great pins such as front right would be taken out of play.

Mark, having not seen or played the hole I'm perplexed by this comment,  Why would the par on the scorecard matter when setting the pin?

[Gordon Irvine]

The debate for me is not about the Par it is about what Tee to play from. A new Tee was pushed back making the five but to me it would be better on the forward tee letting more players reach the green with a medium to long iron rather than the constant wedge play the green has now.There is a fantastic mound protecting the front of the green which is on short cut .However most players miss out this feature .

[Scott Warren]

Eric, I think you need to play this hole to understand.

The pin Mark refers to can only really be accessed from inside 80 yards. Even the best approach outside that distance using the slopes short of the green will finish 25ft or so behind the hole, from where a two putt is a great achievement.

As much as I think golf would be better without par designations for each hole, if you are going to have them, it's reasonable that a hole meet certain criteria. I have seen maybe three fours in my time at Deal, and many more 6s and 7s. Distance, in this instance, is not enough to decide the par.

If that hole is called a par four, and that pin yields very few fours, even downwind, I can see where Mark is headed, that players would scream at playing a hole that is nigh on impossible to par.

Gordon: The two most enjoyable shots on that hole, IMO, are a 160-180 yard approach and a 30-50 yard approach. I seem to find regardless of the tee or wind, I get to play one or the other.

[Gordon Irvine]

There is one thing for sure there cant be a much more challenging finishing run of holes in the UK.

I wish I had seen the 15th green before the hogs back was removed from it! anyone have any details on when that change happened

[Ulrich Mayring]

I would think that a 15 yard eagle putt would often result in par.

Mine at BUDA certainly did! Only that it was a 10 yarder! Putting from back right to front right and just didn't see the break.

Anyhow, it's rare enough for players of my skill level to reach a par 5 in two, so please leave it that way

Ulrich

[Mark Chaplin]

Eric - Scott has answered perfectly, front right is inaccessible with a long iron or wood without a huge piece of luck, a kick right could easily result in a 6 or worse for little reward. However it is a fair position played as a five as there is risk/reward - eagle or birdie  - going for the pin with the danger of 6+, or a deft approach from 100yds in will get within 10-15ft.

Giles Payne may post at the pleasure of pitching close on this pin position during BUDA to close out his match with a 4.

Gordon - I'll ask David Dobby who may have some info on the hogs back, I'm assuming it would have been something like the 13th at Sandwich??

[Scott Warren]

Mark, I had a little bet with myself when I saw the thread that Giles' four would get mentioned sharpish. I still reckon if my second had rolled the extra inch it needed to stay on the front of the green the match would have been mine. It didn't of course, so the ifs and buts matter little.

[Sean_A]

When was the newish back tee built?  I seem to recall playing the 16th as a much shorter hole (470ish?) some 20 years ago. 

Ciao

[Mark Chaplin]

Scott - zzzZZZzzz!!

Sean - I believe the back tee on 16 is actually an old tee for the 6th, the back section gets used as a winter tee for the 6th making it around 220yds.

[Bill_McBride]

Half par holes are way too much fun on the underside (4-1/2 in this case) to be changing holes to upperside half pars, which is what #16 would be as a par 4.  With the exception I guess of #6, there really aren't any other half par holes out there, it's all very pure.

So let's leave #16 as is, please!

[Scott Warren]

Bill,

At 450-odd and with seriously confounding greens, 12 and 3 aren't half pars as well in your mind?

I always think if I can play 3, 5, 12 and 16 in 20 strokes, I have done well.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

At 450-odd and with seriously confounding greens, 12 and 3 aren't half pars as well in your mind?

I always think if I can play 3, 5, 12 and 16 in 20 strokes, I have done well.

We played #3 at a 4.5 par 4 for sure, and from the par 5 tees it's a full par I think.

#12 I thought was a fair par 4 due to the half pipe green - any second shot that got to the front of the green got into a pretty good spot due to those slopes.

#5 is a good solid par 5.

#16 depending on the wind (doesn't Deal depend on the wind all the time?) is a 4.5 par 5 down wind, hang onto your hats into the wind.

Wish I was there now!

[Scott Warren]

Don't wish too hard, Bill. It has been pissing down deluxe and blowing a gale all day, with the mercury just nudging 15 or so...

[Bill_McBride]

Don't wish too hard, Bill. It has been pissing down deluxe and blowing a gale all day, with the mercury just nudging 15 or so...

But the bar's open, right?   

[Scott Warren]

Touche!

[Mark Chaplin]

Autumn dinner yesterday and the bar closed at 0230hrs, fortunately as Scott said the weather was foul today so we had a good excuse to nurse sore heads rather than venture out.

I've found out why 3 or 4 double Kummels on top of a bottle of wine gives me a massive hangover, I thought Kummel was around 25 percent proof similar to Port turns out it's a whisky like 39 ouch!

[Bill_McBride]

Autumn dinner yesterday and the bar closed at 0230hrs, fortunately as Scott said the weather was foul today so we had a good excuse to nurse sore heads rather than venture out.

I've found out why 3 or 4 double Kummels on top of a bottle of wine gives me a massive hangover, I thought Kummel was around 25 percent proof similar to Port turns out it's a whisky like 39 ouch!

You kept those lovely lasses up until 0230?   Good for you!   

[John Mayhugh]

I've found out why 3 or 4 double Kummels on top of a bottle of wine gives me a massive hangover, I thought Kummel was around 25 percent proof similar to Port turns out it's a whisky like 39 ouch!

After my first taste of it I made sure to steer clear of any open flames.

[Cristian]

I played RCP 10 years ago; only once and haven't been back since. I remember 16 as one of my favourite holes on the course. Does anyone have additional pictures of the hole? I only have the course guide as souvenir!

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