Another LI oldie

[Craig Disher]

This one should be obvious to many of you. I haven't seen a published aerial and thought this might be worth looking at. Let me know if you want me to name it. It's on the S coast of Long Island and the aerial is oriented with W at the top.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Craig
Very cool -- thanks for sharing it. Its a damn shame it was preserved.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

I meant to say wasn't preserved.  

[Mike_Cirba]

The killer for anyone who's played here is that it COULD be restored, 100%, if not for the fact that it's now a 27-hole township-owned muni!

In fact, about 60-70% of the original routed holes still exist, although not in their original rugged form.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Not ever having been to Timber Point, I'm still mystified by the possibilities of its restoration or, in this case recreation.

What would it take?

How much of the new 9 destroy the original 18?

[Craig Disher]

Forgot to say that this was taken in June, 1938.

[Patrick_Mucci]

CDISHER,

Is this TP ?

Mike Cirba,

This would be the type of project that GCA should get involved with.  A muni that could be restored to its majestic origins, if as you say that could be done.  At the very least we should plant the seed with the town.

Interesting how the older courses seemed to employ a much greater use of bunkering.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tommy;

I wish I were home with my course scorecard map and copy of Daniel Wexler's "Missing Links" book, but the answer is pretty amazing.  Something like 60% of the holes still exist in their originally routed form, if not in substance (most of the original large sandy waste areas are now grassed).

All it would take to restore the course is intent and money.  There is nothing that could not be feasibly done, save any environmental issues that I'm unaware of (on the south shore of LI, there may well be a host of them).  

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick;

I agree, but the problem seems to be that the township's course gets a LOT of play, which is why they claimed they needed to turn the 18 hole gem into a 27 hole money-maker in the first place.  

Most of the sand in the picture is not formalized bunkering, per se, but vast sandy stretches that were pumped in from the sea by Alison, similar to the original Lido.  

[spdb#]

is the "gibraltar" hole the one that runs L-R along the bottom of the peninsula?

Chris, thanks for doing these - i love them. any pics of the old deepdale course? also, did we ever figure out the last course featured by you was?

[SPDB@]

sorry - meant craig.  

[Mike_Cirba]

SPDB;

Yep, that's Gibralter.  

Still there too!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I think I did an overlay of the current and Daniel's drawing, but I'll have to try to find it. Also providing that Daniel doesn't sue me for using his artwork!:)

[Craig Disher]

A view of Colt and Alison's routing over the current course. It looks like his holes 3-7 and 12-17 are still playable as C&A intended . The par 5 8th seems to have have been split into 2 holes.

Restoring the original doesn't seem to pose an engineering problem. A clever architect might even be able to weave in an additional nine holes. But as a half measure, restoring the sandy areas around 12-17 certainly seems possible. Might this even save on maintenance?

SPDB - nope. The last course will have to remain an unknown.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

I would agree, the golf course looks like it could be restored without much difficulty. I would think a case could be made to the township, that a 18-hole world class golf course would be more financially benefitial than a run of the mill 27-hole complex.

[Greg Ramsay]

This has really tantalised my tastebuds, showcasing the importance of a classic 18-hole course over a mundane 27-hole facility would not be hard to do, i feel this is an area where GCA.com can come to the fore

did Colt or Alison write anything about Timber Point?

which local government/municipality is running it?

Greg Ramsay
www.barnbougledunes.com/new_site

[Tom Doak]

If there's anyone out there in the business of golf course management contracts who'd be interested in taking this on, I'd be glad to make a deal with you to restore it.  Seems like you could make your money back on the restoration (and then some) within 10-20 years.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

What could be some sad news for Timber Point.



Apparently the course is currently going through a, (and I capitilize this) RENOVATION which, by guessing that it isn't Gil, Tom, or the two Ron's doing it, could be sad news for what original detail that is left there. (I'm saying this from the context that I'm 3000 miles away and have never been to Timber Point and don't know who is doing this RENOVATION)(Has Tom Marzloff or Rees Jones been in that area as of late?)

[Tommy_Naccarato]

This is from the website that controls the club's food and hospitality operations. As you can see by some of the dates as well as the lack of information on exactly who the English gentleman was that designed it (Charles Alison) Take it for what it is.

The History of Timber Point Country Club  
 
Timber Point Country Club, was originally the summer home to famed New York lawyer, Julian T. Davies. This magnificent 300 acre estate is centrally located with unimpeded views of both Fire Island and Long Island. Timber Point is, perhaps, the most picturesque estate in the region. The immediate area boasts the former estates of Mrs. Bayard Cutting, (the Bayard Cutting Arboretum), William K. Vanderbilt (Dowling College), and Mr. Frederick Bourne of Oakdale. In the roaring 20's this area epitomized the extravagance and luxury depicted in F. Scott Fitzgerald's, The Great Gatsby.

After Millionaire Julian T. Davies died in 1992, his estate was acquired by a group of landowners. The group was headed by Horace O. Havemeyer, The Sultan of Sugar, and his brother in law W.K. Macy. They decided to turn it into a private club consisting of one hundred members. The Timber Point Country Club was born. The club was the first to offer both golf and sailing to it's members. To design the golf course they hired an English man who was, at the time, the most famous in the world. The back nine was particularly challenging as it laid out along the bay in the, "Scottish manner." The members then acquired the services of renown Arthur G. Griffiths as their golf professional.

Timber Point has been compared to St. Andrews in Scotland for its, "rambling clubhouse." The Club was turned over to Suffolk County in the late sixties. In January of 1994 Timber Point underwent extensive renovation under the auspices of the Suffolk County Historical Society. The aim of the renovation was to return the mansion to the age of elegance. History will surround you and your event with opulence and luxury as you celebrate with class.

 
 

[Craig Disher]

Greg,
I believe the Suffolk County Parks Dept. runs the course. If it's a real moneymaker for the county, it would take some powerful lobbying to get them to consider reducing their income and the tee times available to local residents by a third. Anyone know what the greens fees are?

For those who haven't been there, here's a view of the clubhouse. For a CCFAD experience, this would be hard to beat.

[bethpageblack75]

Wow, what a wonderful thread. I've been busy and off the board for a few months, but checked in today and I come upon my Timberpoint.
What a wonderful group of people you are to champion the casue of such a great old lady.

I live about ten miles from Timberpoint and play it about 10 times a year, usually solo, at off times to stay away from the crowds. I first played there as a kid and couldn't believe the romantic beauty of the bay, the clubhouse, the views, the unique holes to be found on a public course. With some education I learned about it's past and why such a muni has these amazing holes.

The restoration is nearly complete. It's been going on for a few years. The bayside holes, the gems, will be finished in May. Work is going well from what I hear. Many of the fairways were raised a few feet to promote drainage. The greens were left intact.

Over the years, I've played there for the last 24 years, the course has gone under tremendous neglect.  In the late 70's it was still in fine shape and an attractive option for good golfers and many made the pilgrimage to experience it once or twice a season.  I moved overseas but when I visited my parents I would always take a quick loop around Timberpoint.
In the early 90's things got really really bad. Horrible management, huge neglect, trash golfers (kids with coolers screwing around, etc). It became a real eyesore and a horrible place to play - mud tee boxes the norm, range balls everywhere, wrappers and cups blowing around, beer cans all over the rough. Most of the better local players just stayed away. I went there only under dire need.  New group came in a few years ago and the situation is much better. More professionally run, less riff-raff on the course, better organized, somewhat.  It had become a wedding attration (the mansion) but the empahsis on golf is returning.

Through the ages, the one feature about the course remained the same. Oddly, they have GREAT greens. I don't know who built the years ago, but for a muni, terrrific. The practice putting green is fantastic and attracts many on lunch hour for a quick session (it's where I go when ever I buy a new putter).

Suffolk County owns the course. In addition, three others: Bergen Point in West Babylon and Indian Island in Riverhead and West Sayville.  The latter two are also pretty good, in particular West Sayville, but get traffic non-stop. I think greens fees with my Suffolk County card is $20 on weekdays.  Which explains the traffic.

I've taken out of town friends, non-Long Islanders, there and they are in awe at the real estate. They can't believe they are playing right on the bay and it's a muni. "This can't be?" they utter.  But there is a price to pay, slooow play. Painfully slow.

To most of us on Long Island, Timberpoint has always remained the "what if" question.  What if somebody with the resources came in and dedicated themselves to bringing her back to fame? To me it was always one of my "Bill Gates" answers, "if I woke up tomorrow as Bill Gates, I would buy Timberpoint, get some blueprints and make her what she was intended to be...my second "to do" would be buy my beloved Yankees from that man and restore some class."

Standing on Gibraltar is exhilarting. I thinks it is like a 220 yard par 3. Standing on the green staring at the bay directly below you and then back to the clubhouse with a dozen holes  below you and a picture of all the golfers scurrying around the course.  What a piece of real estate.  

Now, I've heard that the PGA Tour used to stop by Timberpoint in the 40's and early 50's. Is this true. I've also heard it said that it was once ranked obscenily high, like top ten in America. Can anybody add to this?

After all these years, I still love the place. Many memories from my teenage golf years. Many Islanders, like myself got our start there (my other was Commack Hills, a real Caddyshack place).  I can't wait until the spring when the front holes will be finished and I can walk the bay holes again and take in the salty air.

Thanks for this thread and the noble thoughts expressed reconfirms what a fine meeting place this website is.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

If you notice Craig's newer aerial, part of #10, 11 13, & 14 had been already rough-graded. (Why I didn't see that to begin with I don't know)

For anyone in the area or close to it, I suggest going to club itself; the local city hall or historical society's and see if they have any pictures of the course from its prime.  If that doesn't work, then check the local newspaper archives. If that doesn't work, try the local college library.

And while you are at it.......please knock the architect who proposed the newest changes in the head!:)

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Alison briefly wrote about Timber Point, along with Sea Island, in a piece for Suttons, the British grass experts. He mentioned that he utilized the Lido method of suction dredging with both courses. Ironically Sea Island was also designed over top by Fazio. There very well may be other articles written by Alison on TP -- it was major accomplishment.

The club was involved in long legal battle with Robert Moses over an estate that would become Heckscher state park, I believe they may have even owned the land and the state took it, my memory escapes me, I do know they didn't want the riff-raff sun bathing near their spectacular golf course. TB may have been the most exclusive club on LI and that's saying something. They had something like 100 members, perhaps 50 - it was a round number.

They must have played some exhibitions on the course because Sarazen claimed that when the wind blew there wasn't a more difficult course -- a very long course (over 6800 in the mid-20's) featuring a combination of very deep bunkers, water/marsh and beach holes.

A gentleman named Kennedy who played 5000 golf courses worldwide placed the course in his personal top 6. This guy was considered an authority back in the 50's - with several articles in the NY Times and a large spread in National Geographic (maybe the only golf article ever in NG). TP was among Golf Digest 100 greatest through the mid-70's.

[blasbe1]

The U.S. Open at the Black course may open the eyes and ears of local polititians who might listen to a restoration plan from an experienced design team (as opposed to a renovation plan which the County is doing now).  If someone sells them the U.S. Open in 2015 they may bite.  I really think it would take the USGA (or at least the State) to show significant interest.  Green fees are about $30 for County residents, so if you cut out nine holes you're looking at about a $15 increase to break even.  The lost revenue during restoration, however, is another story, that's really the difficult issue.  Cash is tight all around (at least it's not in Nassau County).

I always thought privatization was the way Timber Point would be revived.  Throw enough cash at Suffolk County and someone could do a deal in these economic times.  The appeal is that TB is only about an 1:15 minute drive from Manhattan (no traffic, of course) so a high end private course is a possibility.  The club house is grand but in serious disrepair from what I'm told (more cash).  

Anyway, to restore Timber Point would be almost like resurrecting Lido.  It's certainly something that I hope to see someday.  

BTW, if people are looking for info. about what the course use to be like, some of the old timer caddies at Southward Ho used to caddie at Timber Point when it was still private (surely interesting conversation on many levels).  There are also likely to be some old members around.  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Blasbe,
It is unfortunate, but Lido is gone forever.

Timber Point however is a different story, IF, the recent renovation hasn't demolished more detail.