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Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Donald...
« Reply #75 on: October 31, 2009, 08:46:50 AM »
kind of hard to have greens that are too wavy at a place like Lahinch where there can be a bit of a breeze on occasion.  ;)
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Donald...
« Reply #76 on: October 31, 2009, 12:37:02 PM »
Brian

We can argue about waviness, but do you think Lahinch got what was promised?

When asked what the club would have after his endeavours, he replied "a restored MacKenzie course".

PS See page 328/329 in Creating Classics for examples of what I meant at Dublin.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2009, 12:40:22 PM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Donald...
« Reply #77 on: October 31, 2009, 01:54:26 PM »
Paul,

I have only played Lahinch after Martin worked on the course so I have no idea what it was like before.  However, the year that I played, I played it together with a bunch of other architects that had played the course before and they thought he had done a good job.

I like what he had done but of course there are many things that I would have done different.

That is a good question about a Mackenzie restoration.  I really do not know to be honest and I would be lying if I said yes or no and I am not just saying that to protect Martin as a respected colleague.

I do not think they are the best restoration architects around at the moment and I feel there are others around that would do a much better job especially on the Colt courses, myself included.

The only problem I see with giving a job like the Trump project to someone like Martin is that he has nothing to lose.  He is at the end of his career and the pressure really is not on him to do a wonderful job even though I think he will.

You would be surprised by the number of visits he did for Lahinch, more than anyone would guess for a paper and plan architect.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2009, 03:49:53 AM by Brian Phillips »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Donald...
« Reply #78 on: October 31, 2009, 07:57:51 PM »



Niall

If one isn't going to go through dunes, one can build this course anywhere.  The dunes are what will give this course its chance for greatness and I believe this was rightly identified by Trump. 

Ciao


Sean

Without wishing to kick this one to death, it is only a portion of the links which comprises a shifting dune system and is subject to the SSSI. There is plenty of interesting good links land with lots of undualtions with which to build with. Think Muirfield.

Chuck

Re your comment on the hotel, I found it kind of ironic that at the start of this whole saga, Trump campaigned to stop an off shore windfarm (theres true environmentalism for you) because it would spoil the view from the course.

Niall

Niall

I am not talking about a good site.  The dunes are an awesome site.  If the course didn't run this area it wouldn't have anywhere near the potential it now does.   

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Scott Macpherson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Donald...
« Reply #79 on: November 01, 2009, 06:19:16 AM »
Does anyone know what golf course construction company will be involved with this project?

Just Curious,

CW


I understand the pre-tender meetings are imminent, and that all the big UK and Irish Construction companies are interested in the project.

scott

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Donald...
« Reply #80 on: November 01, 2009, 06:56:36 AM »

I understand the pre-tender meetings are imminent, and that all the big UK and Irish Construction companies are interested in the project.

scott

What happened to the promise of work and jobs for the local firms ?

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Donald...
« Reply #81 on: November 01, 2009, 07:01:22 AM »
Brian,

Even the largest construction companies have divisions in Aberdeen or the local area. The small contractors will pick up contracts after the large ones get the main contract.  A small turnover company will not be able to put up bank guarantees anyway in the size that is needed to get the large contracts.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2009, 07:44:52 AM by Brian Phillips »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Donald...
« Reply #82 on: November 02, 2009, 06:34:20 AM »
Brian

We can argue about waviness, but do you think Lahinch got what was promised?

When asked what the club would have after his endeavours, he replied "a restored MacKenzie course".

PS See page 328/329 in Creating Classics for examples of what I meant at Dublin.

Hi Paul, Brian,

Re- Lahinch...

I have not yet uncovered any photographs from the period 1928 to 1935 when this course was MacKenzie's design...

For what it's worth, I think Martin Hawtree did a wonderful job there and whilst I am sure some of his greens are not true restorations, I am also sure that the feel of the course (and more importantly, the routing), is much closer to what MacKenzie designed... The eradication of the par-3 third, the new green at the par-4 seventh, the new par-3 at the eighth (where I incidentally played alongside a hole in one last Wednesday) were all measures to return the course to a similar routing that MacKenzie designed...

As for the wavy greens, yes... they are there... But they fit the landscape well and they are all interesting and different in their internal contours... I too will be very keen to see what is produced on a virgin links site...

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Donald...
« Reply #83 on: November 03, 2009, 06:24:23 AM »
Ally

What do you think of Hawtree relegating a true Mackenzie original, the great 11th, to an alternative hole?
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Rich Goodale

Re: The Donald...
« Reply #84 on: November 03, 2009, 06:39:48 AM »
Paul

As I remember, the original 11th was/is subject to severe damage from sand and salt water in unfavourable wind conditions.  Hence its sitting on the bench rather than in the starting lineup.  Better there than NLE, IMO.

Rich (not Ally) Goodale

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Donald...
« Reply #85 on: November 03, 2009, 06:49:01 AM »
Paul,

I was waiting for you to ask that question.

I was told last Tuesday that visitors preferred the perceived drama in the new 11th whilst many old standing members preferred the original hole. They are in changeover mode at the moment for the winter months. I was lucky enough to catch them in the middle where The Dell was still in play (they have a winter green), the 7th green was still in play (for the first time this year they will use the old 8th green during the winter) but they had changed back to the MacKenzie 11th...

Rich, is it not the new 11th that has problems with sand blow and salt spray? That would seem to make more sense.

Rich Goodale

Re: The Donald...
« Reply #86 on: November 03, 2009, 06:55:35 AM »
Thanks, Ally

I'm glad that I got at least part of the question right!

Cheers

Rich

Melvyn Morrow

Re: The Donald...
« Reply #87 on: November 03, 2009, 07:12:36 AM »

Rich

I think many would feel just the same “I'm glad that I got at least part of the question right! “ if Trumps manages to get part of his plans right, yet I fear we are heading for a Disneyland of Golf on Scottish shores.

A virtual reality game loosely called golf may well be what Trump achieves although we will have to wait and see in the hope that he gets more than just part of the question right.

Melvyn


Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Donald...
« Reply #88 on: November 03, 2009, 07:16:15 AM »
If considering the course only, then I would disagree entirely Melvyn... which is why I bumped the design thread so we could talk about the course and not the stuff that goes with it... I don't think there will be too much interference on that side of things...

With regards to the infrastructure, I've done that one to death...

Melvyn Morrow

Re: The Donald...
« Reply #89 on: November 03, 2009, 07:24:34 AM »


Ally

Is it the right location? Should the site not have been a little further North, perhaps between Newburgh and Collieston where my understanding is that the ground is more stable. It would also allow the resort to grow with catchment area of Cruden Bay coming into the equation. Seems a more viable location if money & golf are to be on an equal footing.

Melvyn

Rich Goodale

Re: The Donald...
« Reply #90 on: November 03, 2009, 07:30:25 AM »
Melvyn

The "catchment area" is Aberdeen (and the USA).  The further south the better.  Cruden Bay will be a bottom feeder of this development.

Rich

Melvyn Morrow

Re: The Donald...
« Reply #91 on: November 03, 2009, 07:54:14 AM »

Richard

I like most in Scotland know his intended market, however by locating the site further north the venture IMHO has a better change of success. Placing it close to Cruden resolves accommodation and allows for more interest on the potential purchase of golfing homes, which generates money for him and the region.

In addition, I believe the land is more stable as I said, but of course, he is not building it there but further south, which I do not think, is as wise as he believes. Nevertheless, that is just my opinion and we will have to wait to see what is done to the land in creating this “great golf course”. I feel more damage could result and we may have a ‘real-estate’ course rather than a true Scottish links course.

Let’s hope my fears are wrong. As for Cruden Bay being a bottom feeder, I think not, but then I suppose it depends upon what Trump produces in the end. The location is the key as is the suitability of the land, which I believe still leaves more questions than answers – time will as always tell.

Melvyn

Rich Goodale

Re: The Donald...
« Reply #92 on: November 03, 2009, 08:15:28 AM »
I disagree with your analysis, Melvyn, but that's what honest debate is all about, innit?

Rich

PS--I didn't know you were resident in Scotland.  If so, let's get together, sooner rather than later.

rfg

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Donald...
« Reply #93 on: November 03, 2009, 08:44:11 AM »
Melvyn,

I was trying to leave the environmental suitability of the land out of the equation also...

Taking the suitability of the land for purpose only, today's fashion is for big dunes and that is what we have... I think the location is ideal because of its proximity to the airport, three other top class courses and the ability to provide a good resort style hotel in the aberdeen area (sorely needed)...

I do think that aside from the infrastructure spoiling the setting, the golfing infrastructure may do the same. (e.g. grandiose clubhouse, starters box, signage, roads etc...)...

But again, taken on a purely golfing basis, this could indeed be a great course... in fact, it should

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Donald...
« Reply #94 on: November 23, 2009, 07:36:07 PM »
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article6929090.ece

Trump’s ‘village idiot’ tirade over golf protester
November 24, 2009

Donald Trump, one of the world’s most powerful businessmen, has launched an astonishing personal attack on a homeowner whose seaside cottage stands between him and his dream of creating the world’s greatest golf course.

Michael Forbes, 56, a former salmon fisherman, has refused to sell his property at Balmedie, near Aberdeen, to Mr Trump, whose grandiose vision is being developed over 2,000 acres at a cost of £1 billion. Faced with this intransigence, last night Mr Trump dismissed his adversary as “the local village idiot”, whose “dirty, sloppy and unkempt” demeanour and appearance made him “a terrible representative for Scotland”. The businessman hit out after Mr Forbes’s mother, Molly, 85, became the latest family member to mount a legal challenge to the resort.

She lodged papers at the Court of Session in Edinburgh seeking an interim interdict against six planning applications granted recently to the Trump organisation, arguing that the company had previously said that it would not develop the pockets of land.

Mr Trump’s response was to dismiss her as the dupe of her son, while reserving his wrath for Mr Forbes.

“Over the years, my representatives and I have often seen Mr Forbes and he has always been dirty, sloppy and unkempt in his personal appearance and demeanour,” Mr Trump said.

“While he is a terrible representative for Scotland, whenever the cameras are rolling, he parades in front of the press looking groomed and wearing a kilt — he truly enjoys the attention that he would never have received without Donald Trump. In a recent television interview that was broadcast in the United States, Mr Forbes made Scotland and its people look terrible. He is a loser who is seriously damaging the image of both Aberdeenshire and his great country.

“His property is a disgusting blight on the community and an environmental hazard, with leaking oil containers, rusted shacks and abandoned vehicles dumped everywhere. It is a very poor image and representation for the world to see of Scotland.

“Instead of wasting the court’s resources, he should spend time cleaning up his land so it does not look like a slum — and a low-level slum at that. Perhaps he thinks that by creating an eyesore I will pay more for his land.”

Mrs Forbes lives near the beach at Balmedie in a static caravan called Paradise, parked next to her son’s house. In her legal challenge she will argue that Aberdeenshire Council did not determine the six detailed planning applications correctly The Trump International Golf Links received outline planning approval a year ago, and Mr Trump said that his proposals were already “the most scrutinised submissions in Scottish planning history”. The development of two golf courses, a luxury hotel, and hundreds of executive homes would “bring a great and positive acclaim to Scotland, unlike the image portrayed by Mr Forbes”. He also cited opinion polls showing that 93 per cent of people backed the project.

“We will not be distracted by the rants of the local village idiot and intend to vigorously defend any challenge to our project. As far as Mr. Forbes’s mother is concerned ... we wish her the best but I guarantee that my mother, Mary MacLeod, would have sternly told her son to “clean up this mess!”.

The Forbes family declined to comment last night


Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Donald...
« Reply #95 on: November 23, 2009, 07:42:44 PM »
1.  Clearly the Donald is self conscious about how he would look in a Kilt
2.  His hair is a blight upon the representation of America
3. How dare anyone interfere with the development of "The greatest golf course in the world"
4. When you look up "the ugly Tourist" in the King's dictionary which one of these two protagonist's picture do you think appears?
« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 07:46:41 PM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Donald...
« Reply #96 on: September 15, 2010, 06:55:40 AM »
Nice update in the P&J today .

I cant wait to be punished on the best course in the World  ::)

http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/1919128?UserKey=

Par 4 hole on Trump’s Scottish course will test players’ skills to the limit
Golfers will have work cut out at 14th tee
By Ryan Crighton
Published: 15/09/2010

This is the first look at what Donald Trump hopes will become one of the most daunting tee shots in golf – the 14th at his championship course in Aberdeenshire.

Once turfed, the sand in the centre of the picture – 225 yards from the tee – will be the only fairway at the signature par 4 hole, which has been designed to punish every hook and slice.

Players lucky enough to hit the fairway with their first shot will then have to navigate through another 200 yards of the Great Dunes of Scotland before reaching the green, which is nestled behind the peaks on the horizon.

Esie O’Mahoney, of lead contractor SOL Golf Course Construction, has worked on some of the world’s most famous courses, including Royal Lytham and St Annes, Royal Birkdale and Muirfield.

But he believes players stepping up to the tee at Menie Estate’s 14th face “one of the most daunting golf shots in the world”.

The Press and Journal has been given an exclusive first look at how work is progressing on Mr Trump’s £750million golf resort.

Construction is well underway at the near-600-yard 18th where the American billionaire hopes future Open Championship winners will clinch the famous claret jug.

Sarah Malone, executive vice-president of Trump International – Scotland, has been providing Mr Trump with daily construction images and updates.

Last night Mr Trump said he was delighted with the way the course was taking shape. “I’m extremely pleased with progress on site – the land is so magnificent that every hole created will be spectacular,” he said.

“I’m looking forward to walking the course during my visit next month.”

Irishman Mr O’Mahoney, 36, is the man who has been tasked with turning the rugged coastline – and Mr Trump’s plans – into the world’s greatest golf course. But the contract manager, of County Clare, said the scale of the job did not intimidate him.

“There is pressure, but this is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity,” he said. “The site is there, the design is there, so there is no reason why this should not become the best course in the world. The land is breathtaking. You couldn’t create a site like this, even with all the money in the world.”

There are now eight excavators, six dump trucks and two bulldozers on site helping shape the course and instal the drainage and irrigation required. More than 20 people are on site, but Mr O’Mahoney said more and more workers would move in as the months passed. When finished, the course will be one of the longest in Europe, at more than 7,400 yards off the championship tees.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2010, 06:57:28 AM by Brian_Ewen »

Ross Tuddenham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Donald...
« Reply #97 on: September 15, 2010, 07:09:24 AM »
What I want to know is; when this resort hopefully fails how easy is it to turn a golf course into an area of special scientific interest?

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Donald...
« Reply #98 on: September 15, 2010, 10:04:58 AM »
Sorry, I can't help myself...SOL Golf Course Construction? That's simply too good to be true.  You can't make this sh*t up.... ;D
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Donald...
« Reply #99 on: September 15, 2010, 05:42:54 PM »
What I want to know is; when this resort hopefully fails how easy is it to turn a golf course into an area of special scientific interest?

Ross,

why do you want it to fail? Why would this be good and for who? As to your question, there are many golf courses that have become SSSI's and still stayed as golf courses.

Jon

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