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TEPaul

As to Alex Findlay, it really does look like he might have been the first sort of actual practicing golf architect to get to this land. I think we are talking about something like 1888 and that is pretty amazing to think about!

JNC Lyon

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"I was saving post # 1000 for an appropriate topic!"


Too bad BillB; you hit the 1000 mark with that one. Now proceed directly to GOLFCLUBATLAS.com's hat check girl-----she has your prize for hitting 1,000 posts. I think it's still a gross of bananas.

And frankly I don't think Charlie was the father of VERY GOOD architecture in America because Devie and Walter beat him to it and Herbie Leeds beat them all to it.



What is the timeline on the construction of Garden City?  Emmet certainly did the original routing prior to the construction of NGLA, but my understanding is that Travis made the course what it is today through years of revision.

Leatherstocking is my favorite course that is credited solely to Emmet.  Here, however, the timeline is even more fuzzy.  Emmet constructed some of the golf course in the pre-NGLA period, but how much of that comprises today's great layout is very debatable.

How many of Emmet's contributions to American GCA were made before NGLA, and how many were made after?

All of that being said, Travis and Leeds did great work before NGLA.  They were the pioneers in REALLY GOOD American golf course architecture.  My final question is: how influential was their work?

JNC

Yes, how influential were Travis, Leeds and CBM?  At least from an aesthetic perspective it must be fairly easy to conclude that their style(s) of design didn't really carry on too long before a more natural parkland style (for lack of a better descriptor) and more blatantly of "championship" calibre took hold and has essentially ruled the roost since.  

Ciao

Sean,

Have you played Garden City?  It is the most natural-looking golf course I seen in my limited experience.  This is particularly dramatic because Garden City is built on a very flat piece of property.  It would have been easy to manufacture golf holes with the given land, but Emmet and Travis routed a golf course that made great use of limited natural features.  The bunkering, while deep at times, is never at odds with the land features.  Garden City is a prototype for a "natural parkland style."   There may not be other courses that are entirely similar, but I think many Golden Age architects drew upon GCGC's principles and features.

JNC

You are getting hung up on my terminology.  Forget it.  Describe the aesthetic styles after the first blush of American architects anyway you like.  My point is that those subsequent aesthetic styles are what dominant the landscape now.  I am making no judgement of good, bad or on difference, just stating what I believe to be the case.  So from an aesthetic PoV, I couldn't say CBM has been nearly as influential as the second wave of American designers who mainly worked on parkland/farmland sites.  I also believe an argument could be made that the championship style of difficulty from guys like Tillie and Flynn introduced has been incredibly influential on design today.  The bottom line is that I am promoting the vast melting pot theory of fatherhood.  No man can or should claim fatherhood over what has become a vast sea of golf architecture - especially if that man made studied what came before him.

BTW - No, I haven't played Garden City, but from descriptions it sounds to be a ground hugging masterpiece which would suit me just fine.   I have seen pix of the bunkering and I do like the varying styles quite a bit regardless of whether look natural or not.  This is one area of design I have changed my mind on these past few years.  I don't mind the highly and obviously manufactured look so long as variety and fun are the results.      

Ciao  

Aesthetic styles aside, while the later Golden Age architects like Tillinghast or Flynn may be responsible for today's parkland style, they were significantly influenced by the strategies and holes laid out at places like Garden City or National Golf Links.  The "Father" of American GCA is not designer who has the broadest influence.  In my mind, it is the person who was the first architect to put strategic designs on the ground in America that influenced subsequent architects.  Tillinghast and Flynn draw from the American architecture that was in place before them at Garden City, Myopia Hunt, and NGLA.  Of course, they have their own styles and strategies too, but I don't think would have been what they were without the courses of the 1900s and 1910s.  By extension, the American parkland style would not be what it is without Leeds, Travis, Emmet, and MacDonald.

A side note about the American parkland style.  I think people's perception of parkland golf courses today are very different the 1920s and 1930s version of parkland golf.  Specifically, I am thinking of bunker style and the prominence of trees in strategy.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

TEPaul

JNC:

I don't know whether you got your answer on your timeline question about the construction of GCGC compared to NGLA. GCGC by Emmet was a number of years before NGLA. By the way, Macdonald belonged to GCGC before he got involved with creating NGLA.

TEPaul

"In my mind, it is the person who was the first architect to put strategic designs on the ground in America that influenced subsequent architects."


JNC:

Well then, one should probably start considering how often architects said the following: "I can do a course as good as Myopia."

Matter of fact, Merion has just such a letter in their files from GCGC's HH Barker to a Philadelphia real estate developer in 1910 who was in the process of trying to sell Merion the land that is now Merion's East course.

It seems to me that it was not uncommon back then for folks to consider that Herbert Leeds' Myopia was the course to emulate. An interesting remark coming from the head professional at GCGC (HH Barker), don't you think?  

JNC Lyon

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JNC:

I don't know whether you got your answer on your timeline question about the construction of GCGC compared to NGLA. GCGC by Emmet was a number of years before NGLA. By the way, Macdonald belonged to GCGC before he got involved with creating NGLA.

I knew Emmet routed Garden City well before the construction of NGLA.  However, most sources maintain that Travis made the course what it is today.  Although I know he made the changes over a number of years, I would be interested to know if he made the majority of his changes before or after the construction of NGLA.  When were the First and Eighteenth at GCGC brought into their finished form?

If Macdonald was a member at GCGC, it is plausible that Garden City, Emmet, and possibly Travis had some influence on his work at NGLA.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

JNC Lyon

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"In my mind, it is the person who was the first architect to put strategic designs on the ground in America that influenced subsequent architects."


JNC:

Well then, one should probably start considering how often architects said the following: "I can do a course as good as Myopia."

Matter of fact, Merion has just such a letter in their files from GCGC's HH Barker to a Philadelphia real estate developer in 1910 who was in the process of trying to sell Merion the land that is now Merion's East course.

It seems to me that it was not uncommon back then for folks to consider that Herbert Leeds' Myopia was the course to emulate. An interesting remark coming from the head professional at GCGC (HH Barker), don't you think?  

One reason that Myopia Hunt was more nationally significant at the time because it held four US Open Championships.  It brings up the question, was Emmet's and Travis's work influenced by Myopia Hunt Club more than anything else?  Leeds and Fownes were the first two architects to spend years revising their golf courses as Travis did at GCGC and Macdonald did at NGLA.  Were they all looking up to Myopia Hunt as the standard for championship golf and great architecture?

I believe HH Barker was an architect himself.  He built the original golf course at Druid Hills in Atlanta, GA in 1911 or 1912.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

TEPaul

"If Macdonald was a member at GCGC, it is plausible that Garden City, Emmet, and possibly Travis had some influence on his work at NGLA. "


JNC:

Emmet was one of the people consulitng with Macdonald in the creation of NGLA and Travis was one of two Macdonald appointed as his "associates" in the formation of a committee of three to design NGLA. The other was his son-in-law H.J Whigam. Eventually Macdonald let Travis go, apparently over their on-going dispute or misunderstanding over the legality of Travis's famous Schnectedy putter.
 
 
 

TEPaul

"I believe HH Barker was an architect himself."


JNC:

Yes he was indeed. There are even a couple of people on this website who have claimed HH Barker was the second best architect in America in 1910, right behind C.B. Macdonald (even though Barker was still the head professional at GCGC).

That kind of makes one wonder what those same couple of people thought about Emmet and Leeds at that time, don't you think?

Well, let me help you out some if you're considering an answer to that last question. One of those couple of people who said HH Barker was the second best architect in America in 1910 has also said on here that he doesn't think Herbert Leeds was the architect of Myopia; he thinks Willie Campbell was.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2009, 02:10:40 PM by TEPaul »

Tom Walsh

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The "Uncles of American Golf"-- the Foulis Brothers

at least in the Midwest  ;)
"vado pro vexillum!"

JNC Lyon

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"I believe HH Barker was an architect himself."


JNC:

Yes he was indeed. There are even a couple of people on this website who have claimed HH Barker was the second best architect in America in 1910, right behind C.B. Macdonald (even though Barker was still the head professional at GCGC).

That kind of makes one wonder what those same couple of people thought about Emmet and Leeds at that time, don't you think?

Well, let me help you out some if you're considering an answer to that last question. One of those couple of people who said HH Barker was the second best architect in America in 1910 has also said on here that he doesn't think Herbert Leeds was the architect of Myopia; he thinks Willie Campbell was.

Since Willie Campbell was the original architect of The Country Club, a course where many people believe modern American GOLF was born, then that might make him the most influential architect of the early period.  What sort of influence did The Country Club have on American GCA?  More importantly, what evidence exists to say that Campbell was involved at Myopia?
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Sean_A

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"I was saving post # 1000 for an appropriate topic!"


Too bad BillB; you hit the 1000 mark with that one. Now proceed directly to GOLFCLUBATLAS.com's hat check girl-----she has your prize for hitting 1,000 posts. I think it's still a gross of bananas.

And frankly I don't think Charlie was the father of VERY GOOD architecture in America because Devie and Walter beat him to it and Herbie Leeds beat them all to it.



What is the timeline on the construction of Garden City?  Emmet certainly did the original routing prior to the construction of NGLA, but my understanding is that Travis made the course what it is today through years of revision.

Leatherstocking is my favorite course that is credited solely to Emmet.  Here, however, the timeline is even more fuzzy.  Emmet constructed some of the golf course in the pre-NGLA period, but how much of that comprises today's great layout is very debatable.

How many of Emmet's contributions to American GCA were made before NGLA, and how many were made after?

All of that being said, Travis and Leeds did great work before NGLA.  They were the pioneers in REALLY GOOD American golf course architecture.  My final question is: how influential was their work?

JNC

Yes, how influential were Travis, Leeds and CBM?  At least from an aesthetic perspective it must be fairly easy to conclude that their style(s) of design didn't really carry on too long before a more natural parkland style (for lack of a better descriptor) and more blatantly of "championship" calibre took hold and has essentially ruled the roost since.  

Ciao

Sean,

Have you played Garden City?  It is the most natural-looking golf course I seen in my limited experience.  This is particularly dramatic because Garden City is built on a very flat piece of property.  It would have been easy to manufacture golf holes with the given land, but Emmet and Travis routed a golf course that made great use of limited natural features.  The bunkering, while deep at times, is never at odds with the land features.  Garden City is a prototype for a "natural parkland style."   There may not be other courses that are entirely similar, but I think many Golden Age architects drew upon GCGC's principles and features.

JNC

You are getting hung up on my terminology.  Forget it.  Describe the aesthetic styles after the first blush of American architects anyway you like.  My point is that those subsequent aesthetic styles are what dominant the landscape now.  I am making no judgement of good, bad or on difference, just stating what I believe to be the case.  So from an aesthetic PoV, I couldn't say CBM has been nearly as influential as the second wave of American designers who mainly worked on parkland/farmland sites.  I also believe an argument could be made that the championship style of difficulty from guys like Tillie and Flynn introduced has been incredibly influential on design today.  The bottom line is that I am promoting the vast melting pot theory of fatherhood.  No man can or should claim fatherhood over what has become a vast sea of golf architecture - especially if that man made studied what came before him.

BTW - No, I haven't played Garden City, but from descriptions it sounds to be a ground hugging masterpiece which would suit me just fine.   I have seen pix of the bunkering and I do like the varying styles quite a bit regardless of whether look natural or not.  This is one area of design I have changed my mind on these past few years.  I don't mind the highly and obviously manufactured look so long as variety and fun are the results.      

Ciao  

Aesthetic styles aside, while the later Golden Age architects like Tillinghast or Flynn may be responsible for today's parkland style, they were significantly influenced by the strategies and holes laid out at places like Garden City or National Golf Links.  The "Father" of American GCA is not designer who has the broadest influence.  In my mind, it is the person who was the first architect to put strategic designs on the ground in America that influenced subsequent architects.  Tillinghast and Flynn draw from the American architecture that was in place before them at Garden City, Myopia Hunt, and NGLA.  Of course, they have their own styles and strategies too, but I don't think would have been what they were without the courses of the 1900s and 1910s.  By extension, the American parkland style would not be what it is without Leeds, Travis, Emmet, and MacDonald.

A side note about the American parkland style.  I think people's perception of parkland golf courses today are very different the 1920s and 1930s version of parkland golf.  Specifically, I am thinking of bunker style and the prominence of trees in strategy.

JNC

I can't disagree with anything you wrote in the last post.  However, if one is take your argument to its logical conclusion, the father of US golf was much more likely to be Fowler, Park Jr and any and all who came before them.  Reasonable people can disagree. You can have CBM and I will take the Melting Pot. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

JNC Lyon

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Sean,

Yes, and then the father of all Golf course architecture, and by extension American golf course architecture, is the Old Course at St. Andrews.

To be the father of American GCA, you needed to have built courses IN THE US in the early stages that provided significant influence for the future of American golf course architecture and architects.  The premise behind that is that there is something distinctly different between courses built in America and those built in Europe.  Since you have lots of experience with golf on both sides of the Atlantic and I do not, you could probably give me a better indication of whether or not that is true.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Sean_A

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Sean,

Yes, and then the father of all Golf course architecture, and by extension American golf course architecture, is the Old Course at St. Andrews.

To be the father of American GCA, you needed to have built courses IN THE US in the early stages that provided significant influence for the future of American golf course architecture and architects.  The premise behind that is that there is something distinctly different between courses built in America and those built in Europe.  Since you have lots of experience with golf on both sides of the Atlantic and I do not, you could probably give me a better indication of whether or not that is true.

JNC

To be honest, I don't think there is anything distinctly different (other than in small degrees) about US and GB&I architecture and thus I don't really buy into a father of US architecture idea.  Consequently, I stand by the melting pot/stand on the shoulders theory.  I think the biggest difference between the best of each side of the pond are the sites and what they could offer in terms playablity styles.  For the past 30 or 40 years those differences have been slowly merging to become more similar.  Hopefully, that trend is coming to an end with recent attitude changes on both sides of the pond.  

Ciao  
« Last Edit: October 28, 2009, 08:24:29 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

TEPaul

"More importantly, what evidence exists to say that Campbell was involved at Myopia?"


JNC:

That entire issue got pretty adverserial on here a while back so are you sure you want to know or ask? If you really want to know I'll tell you though. It's a little complex because the original nine holes was not done by Leeds, he hadn't even joined the club at that point (1894). When he came over from TCC Brookline in 1896 he set about fairly comprehensively changing that original nine into what became known as "The Long Nine" on which the 1898 US Open was held and then by 1900 he added nine more holes that created the eighteen that's there today and on which three more US Opens were held by 1908. Leeds just kept on constantly working on the course bascially bunkering it up more and more and making some revisions for over twenty years.
 

Tom MacWood

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JNC
If you are interested in Campbell and his connection with Myopia there's a lot of good info on this old thread:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40810.0/

Tom MacWood

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Sean has a good point there. It is really difficult to separate the development of golf architecture in America from Britain, in fact, these was so much crossover its nearly impossible. CB Macdonald for example was greatly influenced by developments in the UK and by individuals in the UK. Tweedie was English, Whigham was a Scot, Campbell was a Scot, Bendelow was a Scot, Findlay was a Scot, the Dunns were Scots, the Fouliss were Scots, Watson was a Scot, Ross was a Scot, Emmet and Leeds travelled abroad often...  Developments in America were an extension of developments in the UK.

TEPaul

"Sean has a good point there. It is really difficult to separate the development of golf architecture in America from Britain, in fact, these was so much crossover its nearly impossible. CB Macdonald for example was greatly influenced by developments in the UK and by individuals in the UK. Tweedie was English, Whigham was a Scot, Campbell was a Scot, Bendelow was a Scot, Findlay was a Scot, the Dunns were Scots, the Fouliss were Scots, Watson was a Scot, Ross was a Scot, Emmet and Leeds travelled abroad often...  Developments in America were an extension of developments in the UK."



I think that statement is really significant on here. Here's why:

It essentially boils down to how one wants to or tries to look at a massive subject----say golf course architecture generally no matter where it is VERSUS say golf course architecture in two distinctly different places, in this case in America in the early days in relation to golf course architecture in GB.

This basically boils down to the old "compare" or "contrast" or more efficiently in the way most of us were taught in school "Compare AND Contrast."

I completely subscribe to Sean's idea of the melting pot point if that's the way one wants to look at it but if one does they tend to either ignore or avoid any differences which of course may be extremely interesting when one gets into the "Contrast" analysis.

In MacWood's last post he mentions in those early years Tweedie was English, Whigam was a Scot, Campbell was a Scot, Bendelow was a Scot, Findlay was a Scot, the Dunns were Scots, The Foulis brothers were Scot, Watson was a Scot, Ross was a Scot----but Herbert Leeds was an American, The Fownes, Hugh Wilson, George Crump, Albert Tillinghast, Walter Travis, Dev Emmet, William Flynn, Max Behr, Robert Hunter, George Thomas etc, etc, etc et al were all Americans. Even if most all of them had an interest in the architecture of the old world they still very much had some new ideas on and about architecture that probably did not emanate from abroad and frankly that makes the need to "contrast" what was going on over here versus abroad a most interesing study and inquiry rather than just trying to "compare" it all by just throwing it into one bigy "melting pot" and leaving it at that.

If one really wants to understand some of the differences and the dynamics in architecture between what was going on over there versus over here with many of the architects of either side and nationality and what they were thinking and saying differently throughout those early years (from around the turn of the century well into the late 1920s) one should start by reading some of the ideas and opinion rich articles of A.W. Tillinghast, a really prolific writer and opinion provider throughout! He certainly had a lot to say about some of the differences (particularly from around the mid-teens on) between American architects and architecture in relation to what was going on with foreign architects and architecture abroad ;)
 
« Last Edit: October 29, 2009, 07:54:38 AM by TEPaul »

Jim_Kennedy

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I'm sorry, but I don't subscribe to any theory of GCA that ignores the spectacular moments, like the one in which NGLA was conceived.  I do believe in the continuum, or the standing on the shoulders theory, but even in that I believe there were many who were already heads (and I guess shoulders) above the crowd and, when boosted up, saw a much bigger picture then did their brethren. 

The line of progression running through the history of GCA has dips and spikes, and one of those highest spikes is NGLA. It represented something that as yet had not been put into a cohesive form in the USA.  It was the point-of-no-return for American GCA, and when someone creates something of that magnitude he usually gets the same type of recognition that CBM received.

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Sean_A

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I'm sorry, but I don't subscribe to any theory of GCA that ignores the spectacular moments, like the one in which NGLA was conceived.  I do believe in the continuum, or the standing on the shoulders theory, but even in that I believe there were many who were already heads (and I guess shoulders) above the crowd and, when boosted up, saw a much bigger picture then did their brethren.  

The line of progression running through the history of GCA has dips and spikes, and one of those highest spikes is NGLA. It represented something that as yet had not been put into a cohesive form in the USA.  It was the point-of-no-return for American GCA, and when someone creates something of that magnitude he usually gets the same type of recognition that CBM received.



Jim

I never meant to imply that the melting pot concept of GCA development ignores spectacular moments of architecture - and I am not sure where you got that impression.  Nor was it ever my intention that CBM's reputation should somehow be reduced.  My point is that one heck of a lot was going on before and after CBM that was and is significant for all sorts of reasons.  To pick one guy out of a crowd and proclaim him the father seems pointless.  CBM was part of progression, a spike in the progression for sure, but none the less, part of a progression which relied very heavily on a many talented people.

One of the greatest things CBM contributed was the continued knowledge brought over from the UK that the property and its playabilty possibilities is critical in creating first class golf.  This, I think was at least as important as the gathering of architectural strategies as a way of designing (in other words - the wheel doesn't have to be re-invented).

Ciao
« Last Edit: October 29, 2009, 09:44:40 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

TEPaul

"The line of progression running through the history of GCA has dips and spikes, and one of those highest spikes is NGLA. It represented something that as yet had not been put into a cohesive form in the USA.  It was the point-of-no-return for American GCA, and when someone creates something of that magnitude he usually gets the same type of recognition that CBM received."


JimK:

Do you really believe it was just NGLA itself that was of such magnitude (architecturally) above anything else that came before it (or perhaps just after it like Merion East and Pine Valley) to be labeled "the point-of-no-return for Amercian GCA" or do you think a good part of it was also the way Macdonald went about it (highly public) compared to the others who produced truly significant architecture before him and just after him?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying NGLA is not and was not a real watershed, pace-setting golf course and architecture over here but let's not sell some of the others short before it and just after it in comparision just because their architects went about their seminal and highlly significant projects in the history of American GCA a whole lot more quietly than Macdonald went about NGLA.

TEPaul

"My point is that one heck of a lot was going on before and after CBM that was and is significant for all sorts of reasons.  To pick one guy out of a crowd and proclaim him the father seems pointless.  CBM was part of progression, a spike in the progression for sure, but none the less, part of a progression which relied very heavily on a many talented people."


I'm with your point there Sean. But to me that does not mean there were not and are not some pretty interesting distinctions and differences between American architecture compared to architecture abroad at that time.

Sean_A

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"My point is that one heck of a lot was going on before and after CBM that was and is significant for all sorts of reasons.  To pick one guy out of a crowd and proclaim him the father seems pointless.  CBM was part of progression, a spike in the progression for sure, but none the less, part of a progression which relied very heavily on a many talented people."


I'm with your point there Sean. But to me that does not mean there were not and are not some pretty interesting distinctions and differences between American architecture compared to architecture abroad at that time.


Tom

I agree, but I don't think the distinctions are all that great.  That said, I have always been intrigued by the idea of building a course for the purpose of being able to hold championships which strikes me as a very American idea.  I think the GB&I courses selected for championships were essentially the grandees with corresponding clubs.  Sure, changes were made to all of the championship courses to retain their "status", especially after the onset of the Haskell and the burgeoning concept of golf architecture - which btw the relationship between the Haskell and the development of gca has always intrigued me.  There seemed to be this idea of building tough courses to produce good golfers and I think that idea has carried through up to now.  How many courses have been built around the idea of "championship" length and difficulty etc?  Of course, this idea of "championship" is also related to "fairness" and what is reasonable for gca.  Those courses built by Flynn and Tillie must have been ball busters in their day.  In essence, championship concept and its consequences is, I think, the biggest difference between gca in GB&I and US at the time.  Though the two sides of the pond are now much closer in what they "expect" of gca these days.

Ciao   
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jim_Kennedy

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Sean,

I didn't think you were implying that, so maybe I was unclear in making my point. CBM wasn't about re-inventing the wheel, but he was about making sure it had all its spokes.

TEPaul,

CBM did a great sales job, no doubt. After all, he did get 70 of the wealthiest and savviest men in America to fund nothing more than a plan.

I've read a lot of opinions about the other great courses that preceded NGLA, but I've never read where they contained an ideal assemblage, nor does it seem that's what they were trying to do.
Why did so many people pay so much attention to it? Why did it (does it) have such an effect on other architects? To say it was only marketing is mis-guided, as people,and especially the critics of the day, easily see through the hype.  So yes, I have an as-yet unswerving view that CBM took architecture to a new plateau from which it has never looked back.  His effort at NGLA was a showcase of classic values and a touchstone for what GCA could and should be. Plus, the whole package at NGLA doesn't diminish any other person's work, at that time or since.  He gets the moniker because he stuck his head up the farthest and kept it there.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

TEPaul

"Why did so many people pay so much attention to it? Why did it (does it) have such an effect on other architects?"

JomK:

Because it was a truly revolutionary idea that apparently had never before been thought of or attempted in golf course architecture and because it was rolled out with tremendous publicity and visibility. And of course it was and is very good.

"To say it was only marketing is mis-guided, as people,and especially the critics of the day, easily see through the hype."

I'm not aware of anyone who has ever said it was all hype.


"So yes, I have an as-yet unswerving view that CBM took architecture to a new plateau from which it has never looked back."


I too think he took architecture to a new plateau but so did a few others before him and shortly after him and on.


"His effort at NGLA was a showcase of classic values and a touchstone for what GCA could and should be. Plus, the whole package at NGLA doesn't diminish any other person's work, at that time or since.  He gets the moniker because he stuck his head up the farthest and kept it there."


The point is that American architecture did not exclusively follow his model, style, look etc, and if some did in the beginning it clearly does not seem to have lasted long. The whole idea of just copying GB holes or even what Macdonald referred to as "classical" holes either actually or in principle did not seem to endure. Others had their own ideas, types and styles and developed them and followed them. This fact takes nothing from Macdonald or what he accomplished but for someone to assume that Macdonald set a standard, a type and a style in America architecture that everyone continued to follow would be a pretty wrong interpretation of the evolution and history of American architecture I believe.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2009, 06:43:15 PM by TEPaul »

Jim_Kennedy

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Tom,
No one has ever said it was all hype, they have said what I wrote, a marketing job.

What I'm talking about is what became of his idea, and that was to transcend the actual architecture. No one was even close to putting together what he did, when he did it, and it even impacts what gets built, and how, to this day.

You are where you will remain, and I am where I will remain. More than likely CBM's position will also remain where it is well after we are gone. He will remain in the annals of history, the Halls of Fame of various associations, and when the story writers wish to describe him it will be with "The Father of Golf Course Architecture in America".   ;D

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon