Simpson in Europe **** Chiberta **** PICS (SW France)

[Christoph Meister]

Alfonso,

Bouhana seems to be an interesting guy - appearantly he invented the composition of the red clay used at Roland Garros (Tennis) and was an expert in building all sort of sports grounds - Did you ever come across the name "Bouhana" in Spain?

So from your list of Simpson courses it seems that Cornish/Whitten were wrong attributing Hossegor to Simpson...any chances you put
the list on here or e-mail me a copy (just out of personal & historic interest...)

Regards,

Christoph

P.S. the other day I sent you a Spanish Hickoryclubhead photo by e-mail but I received an error message - did you ever receive that picture?

[Alfonso Erhardt]

Christoph,

I did not receive it...

The catalog is too large to post online, as the names become unreadable. The list, the header of which says "Some of our golf courses" is as follows:

France:
 - Chantilly (old and new)
 - Chiberta
 - Morfontaine
 - Golf de Valiere (Duc de Gramont)
 - Golf de Voisins (Comte de Fels)
 - Golf de Vaux (Baron de Rothschild)
 - Memillon (Compte de Rougement)
 - Dieppe
 - Villard de Lans
 - Chevreuse
 - Fontainebleau
 - Deauville (old course)
 - Deauville (two new courses)
 - Lys-Chantilly
 - Hardelot (new course)
 - Approach and putting course for Mr. Hyde

Belgium
----------
 - Fagnes
 - Sart Tilman
 - Royal Antewerp

Switzerland
-----------
 - Zurich GC

Dutch Indies
-----------
 - Batavia GC
 - Sourabaya

Ireland
----------
 - County Louth
 - Ballybunion
 - Kilkenny
 - Carlow

Austria
--------
 - Schloss Mittersall

Uk
------
 - Cruden Bay
 - Cowdray Park for Viscount of Cowdray
 - Private Course for Sir Mortimer Singer
 - private Course for Sir Archie Birkmyre
 - Private course for Sir Philip Sassoon
 - Private Course for Lord Louis Mountbatten
 - Private Course for Mr. Hames de Rothschild
 - Two putting courses for Sir Robert Hudson
 - Putting course for the Hastings Corporation
 - Approach and putting course for Mr. Clark, Windlesham
 - Approach and putting course for Mr. R. Rank, Aidwick
 - Royal Aberdeen GC
 - Royal Porthcawl GC
 - Rye
 - Hayling
 - Knole Park
 - Ashridge
 - New Zealand
 - Glamorganshire
 - North Hants
 - Muirfield
 - Betchworth Park
 - Wilmslow
 - Rhos-on-Sea
 - Huddersfield
 - Camberley Heath
 - Sunningdale
 - Felixstowe
 - Western Gailes
 - Woking
 - Liphook

[Cristian]

Alfonso,

Bouhana seems to be an interesting guy - appearantly he invented the composition of the red clay used at Roland Garros (Tennis) and was an expert in building all sort of sports grounds - Did you ever come across the name "Bouhana" in Spain?

So from your list of Simpson courses it seems that Cornish/Whitten were wrong attributing Hossegor to Simpson...any chances you put
the list on here or e-mail me a copy (just out of personal & historic interest...)

Regards,

Christoph

P.S. the other day I sent you a Spanish Hickoryclubhead photo by e-mail but I received an error message - did you ever receive that picture?

The club website specifically mentions Jim Morrison as architect. Club websites are not always correct, but as involvement of Arnaud Massy and Mr Bouhana is also mentioned, the source would seem more credible, I guess.

http://www.golfhossegor.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2&Itemid=3

[Christoph Meister]

Regarding Hossegor I now had a look into Fred Hawtree's "Colt & Co", resp. it's annexed list of golf courses designed, remodelled or reviewed by Colt, Alison & Morrison - published 1991 by Cambuc Archive, Oxford, England.

There it says under FRANCE:

"Hossegor, Landes (18 opened 1930) JM Consultant to Landscape Architect Bouhana and W.Martin (Sec.F.F.G.)"

JM is of course John Morrison, so no Jim, Tim or whatever different web-sites are stating....

W.Martin was the secreatary of the French Golf Federation

So I think we now found the answer who originally designed Hossegor!

[Ulrich Mayring]

Cornish/Whitten in the 1981 edition of "The Golf Course" are crediting not only Biarritz-Chiberta but also Hossegor to Simpson

Let's not forget Bad Ems, they also credit that to Simpson. IMHO Bad Ems looks nothing like Simpson and neither does Dieppe, which I believe needs to be given to Willie Park Jr.

Ulrich

[Tom MacWood]

Christoph
Colt & Co. advertised Hossegor as a golf course they designed and supervised. There does seem to be some stylistic similarities between Morrison and Simpson, I wonder if there was some crossover with construction crews (Franks & Harris Bros maybe ?) which magnified the similarities.

Alphonso
That is a great list you have for Simpson.

[Alfonso Erhardt]

Ulrich,

The list I have included was produced by Simpson himself, and Bad Ems does not figure, so I guess you can rule it out.

Tom,

Thanks for that. Its from one of his brochures, when he was working in Spain.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Alfonso,

yes, Bad Ems is a MacKenzie/Fahrenholtz/Hoffmann course, Christoph posted proof of that a while ago on another thread. Also, the Austrian course should actually be Schloss Mittersill. That course, for which Simpson drew up the plans, was never built due to the onset of the Nazi regime in Austria. Interestingly, they did build a 9 holer there after the second world war, Morrison being the designer. However, they do not give him credit for more than "one site visit and drawing 9 straight lines".

Ulrich

[Christoph Meister]

Christoph
Colt & Co. advertised Hossegor as a golf course they designed and supervised. There does seem to be some stylistic similarities between Morrison and Simpson, I wonder if there was some crossover with construction crews (Franks & Harris Bros maybe ?) which magnified the similarities.

Tom,

if you look at Bouhana's advert which I have posted yesterday in this thread you can see that Bouhana was involved in both constructing Chiberta and Hossegor and Golf Illustrated U.S. describes him as "the best known golf course constructor in France".

So it's clearly possible (as you suggest) that there were some crossover effects from Bouhana's construction team....

Ulrich,

as you now again remember correctly Bad Ems was designed by Karl Hoffmann, Major Fahrenholz and Charles A. Mackenzie (see f.e. German Magazine "Golf", January 1952, page 12). Also I have seen an original layout plan signed Hoffmann/Fahrenholz/Mackenzie for Bad Ems, will try to find it and post it here.

I have found no historic evidence for Simpson beeing involved in Bad Ems - but maybe someone out there has? Was he visiting or doing some redeisgns? I don't think so, but maybe I am wrong....

[Christoph Meister]

Alfonso,

Also, the Austrian course should actually be Schloss Mittersill. That course, for which Simpson drew up the plans, was never built due to the onset of the Nazi regime in Austria. Interestingly, they did build a 9 holer there after the second world war, Morrison being the designer. However, they do not give him credit for more than "one site visit and drawing 9 straight lines".

Ulrich

When I saw Alfonso's list yesterday I immediately contacted Christian Arnoldner, the expert on the History of Golf in Austria who also published a nice book on the history of golf in Austria and the former states of the Austrian-Hungarian Empire "Golf, the Royal and Ancient Game", (in German language, Brandstätter-Verlag, Vienna, 2007) - Christian clearly writes in the book and has told me what Ulrich writes - the course projected by Simpson at Schloss Mittersill was never realized (not sure though it was due to the so called "Anschluss") - but I just asked Christian to check again....

In the meantime you might like the enclosed leaflet from my archive dating 1954/55 showing the "9 straight lines" as they say - Morrison clearly did more than that, allready 3 dogleg holes seem not be striaght lines at all  ...Interestingly the course mentioned by Ulrich and today known as Golfclub Kitzbühel is very nearby Schloss Mittersill and initially the project was also sometimes referred to as Kitzbühel-Mittersill as you can see from the enclosed scan...

[Tom MacWood]

Christoph
You're right that makes perfect sense. It appears the courses in the left hand column are Simpson's and the first two on the right are Colt, Alison & Morrison. Does anyone know who designed Port-Marly or Font Romeu?

Also, Wiliam Martin worked on a number of projects with Colt & Co., and I know he was associated with the French golf federation, but does anyone have any additional information on him?

[Tony_Muldoon]

Great thread guys nice work.
Nothing to add except to reinforce Biarritz as a great golf destination.  The old course is 10 mins walk from the cnetre of town, chiberta 10 mins in the car and Hossegar 30mins.  There are other options too. the setting is perfection and desite the style I found it no more expensive thatn any French seaside town. One of our best family holidays ever. Recommended.

[Christoph Meister]

And here are some more scans of 1930*s postcards from Hossegor showing greens and holes No. 8, 10, 11, 14 and 15 - I'll put some more scans soon....

Christoph

[Stuart Hallett]

Tom,

Concerning Port Marly, it was just down the road from St-Germain and layed out in 1902 by Jean Boussod who rented the land. He was advised by M. de La Lombaredière & Charles Viraut, both golfers who had built 3 holes in the Bois de Boulogne on the edge of Paris.

Frequently flooded by the river Seine, Port Marly was abandoned, & the club (Golf de l'Ermitage) moved to St-Germain (clubhouse included) on completion of the new course designed by Colt. The new president of Ermitage, Georges Durand planned the move & remained president until 1936.

As for Hossegor, it certainly looks more like a Colt & Co than a Simpson, It was definetly John Morrison. Recent changes are rather unfortunate but it remains a very solid golf course with lots of charm. It's probably my favorite in the area, even though Chiberta has a great site & potential for greater things. Biarritz has bags of charm that we rarely see these days, I really do like the atmosphere there.

An excellent varied golfing destination. But I would say that, I live there.
  

[Paul_Turner]

Stuart

Good to see you back on GCA, I knew you hadn't been deleted!

Tom asks an interesting question about William Martin, he had an office at 37 Boulevard Saint-Michel, Paris.  He was listed as a partner for a few years.  So I'm wondering if his name crops up at St Germain?  I wonder too about Fourqueux and Valescure which Colt and Co claim. (I believe Fourqueux is long gone but Valescure looks more old style)

Did Cabell Robinson mess up the greens there?

Christoph

I wish I had those postcards!  Thanks for sharing.

[Paul_Turner]

Cristian,

Shame you didn't get to play either. Pedreña just got its greens redone and they have told me they are in great shape. Neguri is great in spring and summer, but gets too wet afterwards.

Alfonso

I'm wondering if you found out if the new greens at Pedrena are faithful to the originals?  I recently watched the Shell match (which Christoph sent to me) and there were (are?) some great greens there, particularly a true Redan par 3.  You can see how Seve honed his short game!

[Alfonso Erhardt]

Paul,

A friend of mine who is on the board told me that they have maintained all original surfaces. However, I want to speak to the club manager or greenskeeper to find out more in detail how they have done it, etc.

I will let you know as soon as I find out as I have agreed with them to go up and review whatever historical materials they have on the club, Colt, etc.

Regards,

[Stuart Hallett]

Tom,
William Martin's name has been mentioned to me on a few occasions, but that's as far as it goes. I will however dig deeper with a few contacts I have here in France, especially among older influential people in golf.

Paul,
Cabell Robinson did remodel the 15th green & quite a few fairway bunkers. It's a professional job in terms of building quality, however the style has drifted somewhat. IMO the new green would fit nicely on other neighbouring modern courses, but not at Hossegor !

Alfonso,
I've been asked to visit Pedrena next Monday/Tuesday and produce a course report. I would have prefered to visit before the works on greens, but such is life. Historical material apparently went up in smoke in 1936 (civil war), what is it with clubhouse fires ?   

[Paul_Turner]

Sean

I thought the opposite, that Pedrena got through the war unscathed?!  There are a lot of filled bunkers at Pedrena but they look pretty easy to restore if that's an option.  The Shell match is worth watching to see the greens as they were in the 1990s and it's an amusing match.  Seve's driving is unbelievably bad!

[Alfonso Erhardt]

Sean,

I would be interested in knowing your opinion on the work they have done to the greens and in understanding if they have really maintained their original contours. If the club doesn't have anything, you can always ask them to get 1939 aerials taken by the Spanish airforce which should provide a perfect idea on where everything was prior to the war.

Paul,

About the grass bunkers, Pedreña had a lot of money problems after the war and they did save by converting bunkers to grass hollows. Not so sure on how many of those still are visible.

[Steve Okula]

In answer to a previous question, there is a 27 hole private club, Golf de Fourqueux,  just outside of Paris. According to their web site, it was built in 1924, but nothing at all about a designer.

http://www.golfdefourqueux.com/golf/modules/presentation/parcours.php

As Spain was neutral in WWII, why would the war have changed the bunkering at Pedrena? Maybe it could have been changed during the Spanish Civil War, but it seems unlikely. There wasn't that much aerial bombardment back then, and I don't think there were any large scale land campaigns in that area.

[Alfonso Erhardt]

Steve,

About the bunkering, it seems that Pedreña grassed a number of bunkers after the war in order to save money. They did the same in Madrid. I guess its just a question of finding where they originally lay.

Regards,

[Steve Okula]

Alfonso,

Maybe, I understand that Spain was desperately poor from the great depression onwards, especially during the '40's, but as much during the war as immediately after, and well into the sixties. In fact, Spain didn't really begin to prosper until the late '70's after Franco died.

When I was living in Sevilla in the early '90's, old-timers used to tell me stories about how they were forced to eat things like egg shells and banana peels to survive. They might have been having me on, but there was a noticeable difference in stature between the old generation, those that survived the forties, and the younger people born post-1960, who seemed to be about a foot taller.

[Tom MacWood]

I've also seen Martin referred to as M. William Martin, but those were in French publications and I assumed the M. was short for monsieur.

[Paul_Turner]

Steve,

About the bunkering, it seems that Pedreña grassed a number of bunkers after the war in order to save money. They did the same in Madrid. I guess its just a question of finding where they originally lay.

Regards,

Alfonso

I think for Pedrena at least,  it's easy to tell where the old bunkers were because it looks like they just removed the sand and kept the grass hollows and even in some cases the face of the bunker.  There are quite a lot in the trees now too.  (I'm assuming the 1990s Shell match is still representative of how the course is now).