How come we don't talk much about Utah?

[DMoriarty]

David,

I would call that a pretty fair assessment.

For me personally I like doing course reviews and so I certainly haven't hesitated writing up and posting reviews for the better public courses in the area.  At the same time, I'm certainly also aware that of the courses I've played I haven't seen anything that is top 100 worthy on either the public or private side.  However when it comes to "bang for your buck" type ratings lists, I would be the 1st one advocating the virtues of what Northern Utah has to offer.

I think that this is generally true of most of the interior west.   I will say that with me however my views of changed somewhat on some of these types of courses as I have experienced more.  For two examples I used to be a big advocate of Old Works in Anaconda MT, but when I played it last summer I was a bit surprised that I had viewed it as favorably as I once had.   I still think there are plenty of good things about it -- the concept of using superfund land in a positive manner and the tie in to the place and culture with the use of the old works -- and the golf itself has some pluses, but I was able to see many more minuses than I once had.   I used to consider it the best public I had played in MT but now personally rather play some of the older courses with less flash.   I have similar views about some of the New Mexico courses but am admittedly not as familiar with many of the courses that have been built in NM in the past 10 yrs.

Overall, the golf scene here really fits in well with what is Utah's biggest asset and that is its outdoors activities.  Whether it be golf, mountain hiking, biking, off-roading/4 wheeling, skiing, rafting, exploring, fishing, boating, National parks, etc, etc....the state as a whole has a ton to offer.  So when one visits to do some of those other things, be sure to squeeze in some golf!!  

Again the way it should be in that part of the country.  Curious, though (and probably only half-joking,) what do the mountain bikers think of the dirt bikers and four wheelers?  In California the mountain bikers and hikers generally have many of their own trails while those who want to use motorized vehicles have their access quite limit.  Sometimes even the hikers get trails free of mountain bikers.   The mountain bikers and hikers claim the motor-bikers and four wheelers change the nature of the trails and the experience for all of them.    Is it the same in Utah?    I sympathize with this argument . . . do you?    Does the discussion remind you of anything?  

[Kalen Braley]

Hmm,

Let me see, how should I best answer the question about my feelings of having trails closed down to motorized traffic in california.   














Safe to say we probably don't agree on closing trails just to hikers or mountain bike riders....   

[Bill Satterfield]

Jay, I live 150 miles north of Salt Lake and have played plenty of golf in Utah.  Like Kalen, my brother-in-law and I have written a handful of reviews and articles on Utah golf.  You can find them here:

http://www.golfcoursegurus.com/reviews/coralcanyon.php

http://www.golfcoursegurus.com/reviews/eaglewoodhole.php

http://www.golfcoursegurus.com/reviews/glenwild.php

http://www.golfcoursegurus.com/reviews/ledges.php

http://www.golfcoursegurus.com/reviews/paintedvalley.php

http://www.golfcoursegurus.com/reviews/thanksgivingpoint.php

http://www.golfcoursegurus.com/articles/classicdouble.php

http://www.golfcoursegurus.com/articles/utahs3060club.php

http://www.golfcoursegurus.com/articles/utahsteepestslope.php

http://www.golfcoursegurus.com/photos/utah/

I am working on reviews for Sand Hollow, Entrada, Bountiful, Valley View, Wingpointe, and Logan River right now.  I just played Victory Ranch in Park City on Saturday and was very impressed with what I found - especially since I'm not a huge Rees Jones fan.  I'll post some pics later on tonight or maybe tomorrow.  Here is my opinion on the area:

Best affordable public courses:  Valleyview in Layton, Bountiful Ridge just north of SLC, and Green Spring near St. George.
Best Upscale public courses:  Sand Hollow near St. George, Thanksgiving Point south of SLC, and Coral Canyon near St. George
Best Newer Private courses:  Victory Ranch, Glenwild, and Promontory all in the Park City area.
Best Older Private courses:  Salt Lake Country Club (Harbottle recently redid the bunkers), Willow Creek, and Riverside  (all located between SLC and Provo)

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

Have you played either / both The Hideout and Red Ledges ?

[Bill Satterfield]

Matt, I haven't played either one.  I keep trying to figure out when to get to the Hideout.  I figure I'll play it when I put a Nex Mexico trip together and play it on the way down.  Haven't played Red Ledges yet either.  My uncle played it and said the greens were as hard as concrete.  I'll pick it up next summer.

[Kalen Braley]

Bill,

I've played it...and while I thought it was one of the best courses in Utah, I thought both South Mountain and Thanksgiving Point were better as well as both of the courses at Promontory.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Bill,
Your golf course review site is not only informative, but it's also fun to read. It seems to be the true presentation of the opinions of amateur sportsmen, and I use the term respectfully as I notice that you don't seem to be selling any products on your site.

Thanks, and keep up the good work.

[Matt_Ward]

Bill S:

The issue with The Hideout rests with the overall quality of the turf. I had a few friends who visited this past summer and were shaking their heads and wondering what might be done to have more consistent playing conditions. They really enjoyed the layout and there's much to be said from that side as FR did a fine job in so many ways.

The mid-length par-4 4th is a solid hole -- ditto the uphill par-4 16th and the closing hole which is really well done. The Hideout could be even better but when serious conditioning issues return time after time it just means for me that the long term potential may not be within reach -- that would be a major shame. Be interested in your comments after your visit there.

In regards to Red Ledges -- yes -- the greens were hard when I played there but they weren't impossible by any standard of quality shotmaking. Unfortunately, many people take the belief that just about any shot they hit needs to have holding control when it lands.
Bill, what's amazing about RL is that the entire site is not more than two miles east of Heber City. It's not like Victory Ranch which is really isolated and is no less than 40 minutes from downtown Park City.

RL is blessed beyond the topography which is not so severe as to allow for a better mixture of holes which often doesn't happen in tough terrain locations. I see the green hardness issue as a temp one at best -- frankly, I would rather more courses kept their greens firm to really highlight the need for even more consistent and high caliber shotmaking. I see RL as one of the very best JN courses I have played.

I tend to agree with Kalen -- Hideout is beyond TP and even South Mtn -- mostly because of the turf issue.

Bill, what course would you say is #1 from what you have played ? Are you saying VR is ahead of Glenwild ?

I thought VR had a fairly predictable front nine followed by a stellar return nine. Thoughts ?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Kalen,

Why is the golf so much more expensive in St. George than Salt Lake?

Newer? Prettier? Land cost? Las Vegas? ...or e. all of the above?

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,

Why is the golf so much more expensive in St. George than Salt Lake?

Newer? Prettier? Land cost? Las Vegas? ...or e. all of the above?

Probably mostly because of the average income of the person living there.  Its much more of a resort destination and a lot of retirees live there with 2nd home type arrangements .

Its possible water is more costly as well, but I can't imagine its based on land costs as there is tons of space down there.   Golf in Vegas is even more pricey so perhaps there is some traffic from there, but its nearly 2 hours away.  I'm guessing they also get a fair amount of out-of-region tourists coming thru the area as well to see Zions National Park amongst other Parks in the area.

P.S.  There aren't many munis in the Saint George area....they are almost all Private/Resort/Upscale Daily Fee courses which is directly opposite to the Salt Lake City area (excluding the Park City area)

[Morgan Clawson]

Jay,

I played Entrada a few years ago.  A small group of us flew in from Mpls/Chicago and played Entrada, , Sunbrook, Green Spring and Sky Mountain. That was just before the newer and better courses opened.  Entrada was a lot of fun to play.  Most of the holes were pretty solid and the setting is drop dead gorgeous. On the back 9 (15?) you come over a rise and all of a sudden your are playing in a lava field.  The contrast of the lush green grass, black lava, and red hills is pretty spectacular. It's worth playing there just for the back 9.  A few of the holes are a little tighter and trickier than they need to be.  It would be fun to go back there and play these newer courses. St George was an easy place to stay.

[Matt_Ward]

Morgan:

I too share many of your comments on Entrada -- but have to ask this -- did you and your buds enjoy the penal nature of the final holes at Entrada. The lava areas are quite penal and rather a dead end for any type of recovery.

Regarding St. George -- I see it as a great place to sample some really good golf -- it's not Shinnecock level -- but with the addition of Sand Hollow and the close proximity to Mesquite it does provide a worthy alternate to the Vegas pick-your-pocket courses.

 

[Morgan Clawson]

Matt,

I remember the 2nd and 9th holes as being the most penal.  Although, I did hit it into the lava on 17 and trashed a pair of golf shoes! It seems like there was a lot of land to work with there and Johny Miller would have been wise to widen many of the fairways. 

I would do a trip to St George over Vegas 10 x out of 10.  Much more affordable and scenic.

[Matt_Ward]

Morgan:

Have you been to Mesquite ?

concur with your last comment -- widening a bit on the lave final holes would have helped.

too bad Entrada is no longer public.

[Kalen Braley]

Morgan:

Have you been to Mesquite ?

concur with your last comment -- widening a bit on the lave final holes would have helped.

too bad Entrada is no longer public.

Matt.

It is "public"....its stay and play now, but be prepared to drop some benjamins.

[Matt_Ward]

Kalen:

Entrada is a fine diversion -- but it's not worth a single benjamin in my book -- the better option is nearby Hurricane with Sand Hollow. Even Coral Canyon is worth a play there.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen:

Entrada is a fine diversion -- but it's not worth a single benjamin in my book -- the better option is nearby Hurricane with Sand Hollow. Even Coral Canyon is worth a play there.

I suspect you are right.  Sky Mountain, which I've played, isn't a bad option either considering its one of the best priced courses in the area.

[Matt_Ward]

Kalen:

FYI -- there's a new TF course in the Mesquite area and word I hear is that it's quite good -- worthy of a making visit.

St. George as a whole provides a solid location for families and those folks who want golf on their radar screen. Sand Hollow is the main "must" play there.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen:

FYI -- there's a new TF course in the Mesquite area and word I hear is that it's quite good -- worthy of a making visit.

St. George as a whole provides a solid location for families and those folks who want golf on their radar screen. Sand Hollow is the main "must" play there.

Trust me Matt,

I was tortured last weekend when driving thru on my way to Vegas.  I did get a couple of glimpses of the cliff holes at Sand Hollow from the freeway, but unfortunatly there was no time in the schedule to accomadate getting a round in.   

Mesquite has what 4 courses now?

[Matt_Ward]

Kalen:

Mesquite has more than four (4) courses ... the new TF layout is rather hilly and close to Falcon Ridge.

From what I could see it provides a bit more latitude than Wolf Creek.


Too bad you missed Sand Hollow -- a first rate effort by John Fought and although it doesn't get mentioned much -- the additional nine (9) holes they have is also worthy of a play.

[Jon Nolan]

Too bad you missed Sand Hollow -- a first rate effort by John Fought and although it doesn't get mentioned much -- the additional nine (9) holes they have is also worthy of a play.

Sand Hollow is worth at least one weekend a year for any No. Utahn.  I agree about the "links" nine there.  Wide open, a blast to play, easily walked (they won't even let you walk the championship course) with the biggest and most contoured greens in all of Utah's public golf.  We walked a Sunday morning nine there on Fathers Day and we literally had the entire course to ourselves.  We saw only a guy hand watering an area off the 4th and 7th greens and a turkey buzzard shredding a rabbit to bits.  The first tee of the championship course was chock-a-block as we played the putting course after the nine (the putting course is kickass.)

One of the most interesting things about the links course is the shaggy fairways.  When I first played there over spring break I thought I wouldn't like them at all but they are fun - just different from the championship's f/f fairways.  It's an easy and very enjoyable walk with the greens presenting most of the challenges.

[Matt_Ward]

Jon:

I liked the extra nine holes and the putting course you mentioned.

However ...

The tee and fairways need a bit more grooming for my liking -- the greens on the extra nine were outstanding. Plenty of movement and one needs to really position your approaches because anything less than that invites three putting or more.

Sand Hollow provides the real reason to go to the greater St. George area -- combine it with what you have in Mesquite and it's a fun place to be for a host of reasons -- golf and nongolf alike.

[Jon Nolan]

@Matt

Yes, the links course would be better if it played f/f.  There are some very strategically placed bunkers which would be even more relevant if the ball could roll out.  Still, somehow the shagginess fits in with the nature of the place.  Rock walls, rabbits everywhere, low traffic, high walkability, so forth.  It's a completely different feeling to the championship course.  More of pleasant and no-pressure round vs. the exciting and challenging round you get on the other.

Looking forward to getting back down there.  With Coral Canyon ten minutes away you probably have the best public 45 hole weekend in Utah.

Oh, and no yardage markers earns it the +5 purist bonus points.  I wouldn't complain though if they had red/white/blue flags given some of the approaches are semi-blind and the greens are 3-4 clubs deep.      

[Matt_Ward]

Jon:

The Links Nine would be even better if turf conditions were similar -- the greens on those nine holes are quite fun to play and clearly way beyond the standard norm one sees for UT public courses.

I don't equate shagginess with anything more than a failure to really max out what the design should provide.

Sand Hollow has elevated the nature of what public golf -- affordable golf I might add -- can be. When you factor in Coral Canyon which is minutes away and you also have Mesquite which is no more than 30 minutes away you have a location which provides plenty of alternatives for golfers and non-golfers alike.