Regardless of the architect, what would you ASK them to create?

[Charlie Goerges]

On another thread Kyle and Tom D. talked about the threads which had been done about which archie you'd choose for a given site. I agree that they're probably pointless. As will likely be this one. Nevertheless, let's give it a shot.


IF you were building a course (dream course, housing course, for profit, public, private, it doesn't matter), What would you ask of the architect? Or, put another way, would would be YOUR marching orders to the architect?


For me personally I'd ask them not to worry too much about preconceived notions of what a golf course should be. I definitely don't want to end up with something that could be mistaken for the course down the road.

I think that playing it "safe" is a contributing factor to the current decline in the "business" of the game. Worry too much about players' expectations has lead to a same-ifying effect that has actually hurt the game in the long run.


So what would you say?

[Joe Hancock]

Charlie,

I might approach this in an entirely different manner. I think I would pay the architect to spend a week or so of life around me...to determine my personality, my preferences, my attention to detail, etc. then allow them to design the course to match what they observed of me. I think that would be a respectful way to give them the free reign they need while allowing them to have an understanding of the client before anything gets done, design-wise.

Joe

[Charlie Goerges]

That's an ingenious idea sanity-challenged Joe! (don't let it go to your head, I said INgenious, not genius)

Of course you'd have to choose an architect willing to do something like that which might seriously limit the field.

[Joe Hancock]

That's an ingenious idea sanity-challenged Joe! (don't let it go to your head, I said IN[i\]genious, not genius)

Of course you'd have to choose an architect willing to do something like that which might seriously limit the field.

If the architect was like-minded(which is important), he or she would happily join in on the ingenious idea...and if they're a bit insane, all the better!

[V. Kmetz]

I'd tell him/her that this is going to be the easiest job they ever had; they are not going to be required on the site but eight to ten times, that they will be paid their going rate, and they can decide themselves after the course is opened whether or not they want their name on it and where on the marquee they wish it.

I would heist a reputable, veteran Superintendent from a local course to oversee clearing, earth moving, drainage, essential construction, grassing and environmental diligence.  I've seen noted architects at work on all sorts of classic renovations, new courses

For the architect's part i specifically want:

1.  a survey of the property I've chosen
2.  a competing Routing Plan after he sees my own
3.  a set of blueprints for a Routing I eventually settle on
4.  him/her to be the Chief Compliance Officer with all local authorities
5.  to regularly update myself and the Super on those activities
6.  for him and his primary shaper to execute two green complexes first...in different areas of the property...to demonstrate to myself and the Super their specific techniques for the hole(s) on this parcel.
7.  to have him consult on the virtues of the various surface materials chosen to be used, bunker sand, seed, sod.
8.  to visit the course 6 months after opening and produce a brief consultant critique for his ideas going forward
9.  an archival-journal record of documents, correspondences and photographs on the project.

My course is going to be public, puny and playable, high on ridiculous amusement and low on anxiety and lost balls - probably a small nine-holer with a exaggerated shack for a clubhouse.  If i'm the inspiration, it's not going to be a housing development or a high-end daily fee.  I'm hoping to give slashing plumbers, retired salesmen, high school novices, families and the oddly compelled crack a walking round under $25 and a cart round under $45.  I care about economy, but if I can somehow last for five years giving the golfing public a cheap and recreational round, it might be a thing of endurance.  If it fails, well you've got to do something in life, no?

Cheers

vk

[Mac Plumart]

V. Kmetz...Vinny, right?

Damn, homey!!!!

I love it.  Keep it coming.

You highlight in this post the value of a great superintendent.  How unbelievably true that is!!

I wonder how many great courses with super designs were ruined due to poor upkeep and/or bad maintenance?

You are the man!

Later.

[Tom_Doak]

Charlie,

I might approach this in an entirely different manner. I think I would pay the architect to spend a week or so of life around me...to determine my personality, my preferences, my attention to detail, etc. then allow them to design the course to match what they observed of me. I think that would be a respectful way to give them the free reign they need while allowing them to have an understanding of the client before anything gets done, design-wise.

Joe

Joe:

That's an interesting answer.

After I had approached Mike Keiser about designing a course in Bandon, back in 1994-95, he came and played golf with me at Stonewall.  Then the next year, he invited me to join a golf trip with a few of his high school friends and himself in Northern Ireland and Ireland, and teach them something about links golf.  And then, of course, it was five more years before I actually got to build Pacific Dunes.  So, I can safely say your approach has a good chance of working!

[Charlie Goerges]

Thanks to Tom I must downgrade my appraisal of Joe's idea to "old news".

[Brian Phillips]

Tom,

Did you take him to the first course at Stonewall or after the second one was built?

[Jin Kim]

My needs are simple: no rough, no trees, wild greens.

[V. Kmetz]

Mac,

Thanks for the endorsement. There was a hanging, unfinished portion of my post - specifically regarding Supers - and the gist of it was:

I've seen notable architects at work on classic courses, new designs, restorations - the Super (the best of em) is the guy who does all the vital grunt work, and many times Supers are under great economic pressure to do construction work "in-house" on his existing labor-materials budget.  A small annex of funds may be apportioned for architectural consulting and the increased labor, but its the Super and his guys that often reshape a bunker, build a new forward tee, improve an existing tee or start to reclaim green area that have been reduced from mowing patterns.

I stress a local Super of repute because they are the certainly most familiar with the horticultural/agronomic specifics of turf, trees, plantings, irrigation, drainage, climate in that region and they have the shared experience of other local colleagues at other local courses who remain well-abreast of changing events and turf trends in their area.  They are also completely fluent with local compliance in all environmental, OSHA, planning, zoning and wetlands details and can double-team with the architect to hammer those nettling, but essential aspects of any project.

Re-reading this and my last post, I fear I am giving the impression that I am eschewing or damning with faint praise the role of an architect in GCA.  I apologize if my words cannot be construed any other way, because it is not my intent or axe to grind. I believe we are approaching a second zenith in GCA, with the Hanses, Doaks, Coore/Crenshaws et al amongst the notable leaders and putting to bed for many years some bad, bland design axioms. There are many great architects performing an essential role with great skill (some of whom visit this site) and if I was merely looking for sound, considered, informed, interesting golf design I would hire them in a minute, with near carte blanche.  However, I would like to be the architect of a golf course, not a golf course architect yet I need a good man's help in a specific way.

Now let some big bag of money fall from the sky and I can get started on Sunrise Hill in Brookfield, CT, to be sited on a defunct farm.  I'm almost done with my initial routing already.
 

[Tom_Doak]

Brian:

We didn't build the second 18 holes at Stonewall until 2002, after Pacific Dunes was open.  So Mike only saw the first 18 ... which was probably a good thing, considering his general opinion of severe greens.

[Philippe Binette]

What would I asked an architect

TWO WORS: Intelligence, restrain

[Steve Salmen]

Without question, if money was no object, the primary thing I would want as an owner is enough sand below the surface so the course is playable after a lot of rain.  I don't particularly enjoy cleaning my ball.

[Garland Bayley]

I would ask for 18 different problems to be solved.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Can you find a site then build Alister Mackenzie's Augusta National?

[JC Jones]

Charlie,

I might approach this in an entirely different manner. I think I would pay the architect to spend a week or so of life around me...to determine my personality, my preferences, my attention to detail, etc. then allow them to design the course to match what they observed of me. I think that would be a respectful way to give them the free reign they need while allowing them to have an understanding of the client before anything gets done, design-wise.

Joe

I dont think there is an architect out there you could pay enough to want to spend a week with you.

[JC Jones]

I'd just tell them to create a golf course.  Presumably, if I've done my due diligence, I wont have to instruct them on the types of greens, the amount of earth moved, the amount of rough, etc., etc., etc.  All of that will already be their design philosophy and I will know that when I hire them.

So, already I have it narrowed down to a handful of guys/teams.  One thing that probably would matter is having them involved in the choosing of the site.

[Ian Andrew]

I would ask 5 achitects to visit the site and come back to me with a plan, a philosophy and tell me what they want to accomplish.

[Joe Hancock]

Charlie,

I might approach this in an entirely different manner. I think I would pay the architect to spend a week or so of life around me...to determine my personality, my preferences, my attention to detail, etc. then allow them to design the course to match what they observed of me. I think that would be a respectful way to give them the free reign they need while allowing them to have an understanding of the client before anything gets done, design-wise.

Joe

I dont think there is an architect out there you could pay enough to want to spend a week with you.

You're probably right.....

 

[Kalen Braley]

I would tell him/her and base their potential hiring on a few things:

1)  Do we have a good basis/channel for communication? I'm not saying we'd have to be two peas in a pod, but if the open lines aren't there, it'd be tough to move forward.
2)  Throw all the rules out the window.... out of the box stuff here is highly encouraged.
3)   Quirk, quirk, and more quirk.
4)   Dirt moving would be OK just as long as the finished product looked naturalistic at least for the most part.
5)   Get the best use of the land as possible. (ie build clubhouse, access road last)

I wouldn't expect them to have a plan up front because the best stuff is found as you explore the site.

[Mac Plumart]

I would do what others have said and add in a twist...

#1---spend quite sometime with an architect.  Similiar to what Tom Doak said he and Mike Keiser did prior to unleashing their masterpieces and what Joe Hancock mentioned.

#2--But here's the kicker.  Through this,  I would hire the architect to build his lasting masterpiece...like Pinehurst was to Donald Ross, Pine Valley was/was supposed to be for Mr. Crump, etc.  Build this bad boy and then stay on to oversee all maintenance and adjustment.  Tinker with it as needed, but you are the man from day one until you pass away.  Please hand groom and select successors.

The club/course would be private but it would have a limited amount of public tee times.  Say an hour a day or a week or two out of the year.  Simillar to what Palmetto does during Masters week.

I think it is vital to have deep pockets to BEFORE this thing gets going so you don't run out of money and/or need bank lines for the construction.  Borrowed money is the kiss of death in due time.  And you will need some coin to get the architect you want to do the job.  But maybe it doesn't have to be an already known architect.  Due diligencemight reveal an up and comer that would relish the opportunity.

just my 2 cents. 

[Tom_Doak]

Mac:

That business plan would probably get you any architect you wanted, at a reduced fee.

[Jay Flemma]

My needs are simple: no rough, no trees, wild greens.

I like it!!  Good to see you, Jin!

[Mac Plumart]

Mac:

That business plan would probably get you any architect you wanted, at a reduced fee.

Good to know.

Frankly, this is my little pipe dream.   I love the feel of some clubs and not the others and I would love to create my own ideal environment.  I also know that I don't know "jack" about creating a timeless golf course masterpiece, but if I could facilitate a true master leaving his lasting legacy on the golfing world...that would be the next best thing.

I know a group of people who could form a syndicate to do a deal like this...but I would like to be able to do it by myself.  But of course I am thinking $50 million would be a minimum required (assuming the thing won't be profitable) and I don't have $50 million.  So...it is a pipe dream for now.