Best Architects

[TEPaul]

If one is going to try to rank golf architects one should probably do it via a process that is completely fair across the board----eg "The Big World" theory. This might require the consideration of architects who have become the most popular and of course one must also consider in the realm of popularity that some people have good taste and some people have bad taste! 

[David Stamm]

Jay Moorish gets full credit for the terrible result of the "resto" that was done at Ojai Valley Inn. The man did not not even know that Thomas had written a book on the subject of architecture that was chock full of photos of the place. I think most here that were taken on a tour of the place by TN, Ball and myself during this past years KP can attest to some of the things seen.

[Mike_Young]

Jay Moorish gets full credit for the terrible result of the "resto" that was done at Ojai Valley Inn. The man did not not even know that Thomas had written a book on the subject of architecture that was chock full of photos of the place. I think most here that were taken on a tour of the place by TN, Ball and myself during this past years KP can attest to some of the things seen.

David,
So he didn't know there was a book out there.....I have spoken with an architect that was with a major signature for years and a member of a GCA society and he had never heard of chicago Golf Club....he was still a pretty good architect....
But I still say JM is a good architect...
BTW...which Thomas wrote the book and what is it's title?  I like pictures in books

[David Stamm]

Jay Moorish gets full credit for the terrible result of the "resto" that was done at Ojai Valley Inn. The man did not not even know that Thomas had written a book on the subject of architecture that was chock full of photos of the place. I think most here that were taken on a tour of the place by TN, Ball and myself during this past years KP can attest to some of the things seen.

David,
So he didn't know there was a book out there.....I have spoken with an architect that was with a major signature for years and a member of a GCA society and he had never heard of chicago Golf Club....he was still a pretty good architect....
But I still say JM is a good architect...
BTW...which Thomas wrote the book and what is it's title?  I like pictures in books

Mike, GEORGE Thomas, you know, the one who DESIGNED Ojai Valley Inn that Jay was supposedly "restoring". Now, what was the name of that book again? Oh yeah, Golf Architecture in America.

If you'd like, I can tell you the story of the par 3 16th (old 3rd) and how Crenshaw had discovered it virtually intact and how Jay managed to muck it all up.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I don't think anyone should try to "rank" architects.  You can rank our courses, but you can't really tell what part of those courses are ours, and what are our associates', and what are Mother Nature's.

A golf course is a finished product.  An architect is always a work in progress, and we are only as good as our next course.  [Of course, only a few of those on your list still have a next course to build.]

And right now, that includes most of the living ones!

I don't think it matters what part is done by associates at least in most firms.  The nameplate gets the credit good or bad.

But, overall, I agree its fruitless to rank gca's.  To do so would even require as many categories as the course rankings, IMHO.

I mean, Floyd Farley would surely take home the "Midwest Low Cost Architect" award, wouldn't he?

[Mike_Young]

Jay Moorish gets full credit for the terrible result of the "resto" that was done at Ojai Valley Inn. The man did not not even know that Thomas had written a book on the subject of architecture that was chock full of photos of the place. I think most here that were taken on a tour of the place by TN, Ball and myself during this past years KP can attest to some of the things seen.

David,
So he didn't know there was a book out there.....I have spoken with an architect that was with a major signature for years and a member of a GCA society and he had never heard of chicago Golf Club....he was still a pretty good architect....
But I still say JM is a good architect...
BTW...which Thomas wrote the book and what is it's title?  I like pictures in books

Mike, GEORGE Thomas, you know, the one who DESIGNED Ojai Valley Inn that Jay was supposedly "restoring". Now, what was the name of that book again? Oh yeah, Golf Architecture in America.

If you'd like, I can tell you the story of the par 3 16th (old 3rd) and how Crenshaw had discovered it virtually intact and how Jay managed to muck it all up.

Oh..I thought you were talking about the Thomas guy that did roses and decorated cakes....

[David Stamm]

Jay Moorish gets full credit for the terrible result of the "resto" that was done at Ojai Valley Inn. The man did not not even know that Thomas had written a book on the subject of architecture that was chock full of photos of the place. I think most here that were taken on a tour of the place by TN, Ball and myself during this past years KP can attest to some of the things seen.

David,
So he didn't know there was a book out there.....I have spoken with an architect that was with a major signature for years and a member of a GCA society and he had never heard of chicago Golf Club....he was still a pretty good architect....
But I still say JM is a good architect...
BTW...which Thomas wrote the book and what is it's title?  I like pictures in books

Mike, GEORGE Thomas, you know, the one who DESIGNED Ojai Valley Inn that Jay was supposedly "restoring". Now, what was the name of that book again? Oh yeah, Golf Architecture in America.

If you'd like, I can tell you the story of the par 3 16th (old 3rd) and how Crenshaw had discovered it virtually intact and how Jay managed to muck it all up.

Oh..I thought you were talking about the Thomas guy that did roses and decorated cakes....

No, no no. That's his first cousin. I'm talking about the guy who did roses, decorated cakes and wrote a book about deep sea fishing. I can't keep giving you this free education, Mike.

[Kyle Henderson]

If you came up with a numbers-based approach based on the rankings (top 100 U.S. and top 100 international), you'd get something looking like this:

1. Mackenzie
2. Pete Dye
3. Donald Ross
4. H.S. Colt
5. A.W. Tillinghast
6. Raynor/MacDonald
7. Jack Nicklaus
8. Tom Doak
9. Old Tom Morris
10. Tom Fazio

Jim, that's a set of numbers which induces some serious nausea on my end.

That is the strongest endorsement imaginable (specifically Spaulding's nausea)! We have a winner! Good work, Colton!

[Kyle Henderson]

I don't think anyone should try to "rank" architects.  You can rank our courses, but you can't really tell what part of those courses are ours, and what are our associates', and what are Mother Nature's.

A golf course is a finished product.  An architect is always a work in progress, and we are only as good as our next course.  [Of course, only a few of those on your list still have a next course to build.]

Clearly, there is no way to rank the definitively rank the quality of artists or their creations, but this forum is a great place to discuss who one would choose as their GCA if they had the opportunity to build their own course.

The points you raise can also be considered (and probably have been in other threads) along with a number of other issues

So here it goes:

If you could choose any architect (currently living or brought forward in time) ot build YOUR golf course, who would you choose..

If your property was:
-in sand dunes by the sea?
-on a flat prairie
-in rolling woodlands
-a former landfill
-etc.

Is there a particular area in the GCA's career that you would hope to recapture?

Are there certain associate designers or shapers from their team that you would request be included in the construction team?


Most importantly, can you justify your choices using the Colton formula?

[Tom_Doak]

(Sigh.)

We've done all those threads before, Kyle.

The bottom line is that most posters on GCA would choose MacKenzie or Colt or another Old Dead Guy, but of course the posters themselves would be there to give important instructions.

[David Stamm]

The only instruction I'd give is to make me a pleasurable, interesting course for all levels of players that I will not tire of. If I start telling him what to do, then what's the point of me asking him to do the course to begin with?

[Kyle Henderson]

(Sigh.)

We've done all those threads before, Kyle.

The bottom line is that most posters on GCA would choose MacKenzie or Colt or another Old Dead Guy, but of course the posters themselves would be there to give important instructions.

Which I assumed (and stated...).

(Sigh)

[Mark Pritchett]

I think I would be inclined to give an unknown architect a shot at building my dream course.  Why would I want my new course to be immediately compared against an existing architect other courses?

[V. Kmetz]

Because I've read a lot and respect the opinions of others, I'd include architects (unranked) of whom I've never experienced, like many of the ODG; but I feel more comfortable just contributing to this pleasant speculation with those architects whose work consistently yields a good time for me:

Raynor (I believe distinct from CBM)
CBM
Gil Hanse (Tallgrass in Shoreham LI is a course I wish to return to, soon)
Coore/Crenshaw (merely based on my one round at Friar's Head, supplemented by the unanimously favorable critiques)
Ross
Th. Winton (the Ross associate who designed several Westchester County Public courses, somewhat disappointed in his private designs of Mt Kisco CC and Mill River, CT)

Cheers

VK

[Mark Pritchett]

What about Langford?

[Mac Plumart]

Gents...I just got back from playing 18 and I like the looks of things on this thread.  FYI...I still can't do a real strong 18 but my rehab is coming along well.  But I did play 14 strong holes.  Man, I love golf!!!

Back to the thread...

Frankly, I was hoping for some specific things to occur in this thread and some of them are.  Was I looking for validation of my silly top ten list?  Not really.  I was really looking for a few other things to occur...

#1--Different architects names to be mentioned that members of this site thought should be on the top ten.  And we've gotten them...Wilson, Travis, Maxwell, Flynn, Nicklaus, etc.

#2--I was hoping for some obscure/not as immediatley recognizable names to come up...Floyd Farley, Hanse, Th. Winton

#3--I was hoping for someone to say that ranking architects is a dumb idea.  And we got that. 

The reason I wanted point #3 is that I think the entire subject is too deep to have a quick and dirty top ten list.  We need to dig deeper and I think this website is the only venue where we can bring together so many experts and interested parties to discuss topics like this.

Tom Doak said…

“I don't think anyone should try to "rank" architects.  You can rank our courses, but you can't really tell what part of those courses are ours, and what are our associates', and what are Mother Nature's.”

Yeah…that is right.  So given that mother nature plays a role in this can we build on Kyle Henderson’s comments…

“If you could choose any architect (currently living or brought forward in time) ot build YOUR golf course, who would you choose..

If your property was:
-in sand dunes by the sea?
-on a flat prairie
-in rolling woodlands
-a former landfill
-etc.”


Also, business plays a role and Mike Young’s post are fantastic along those lines.  I won’t cut and paste because they are too voluminous.  But FOR SURE, the developer and the business man’s interest will drive who they pick to design their course, how much land they can work with, etc.

With all of this type of stuff, there are a million ways this thread could go.  I will leave it up to you all to drive it due to the fact I am no expert…simply a very interested student.

But I would really like to know, who on the top ten list deserves to be there…any and all opinions are welcome.  Who is over-looked and why?  Who are the amazing associates?  Who is the beneficiary of great pieces of land, but might be over-rated as an architect because of they work with only prime real estate?  Who gets crap land, but makes great golf course out of it? Etc.

I guess rather than the plain and simple top ten list…I am interested in the reasons why.  You see, I am a portfolio manager therefore I buy and sell stocks.  When I read others research, I don’t really care what stocks they rank as buy or sells….I want to read their thought process. 

Here we can do the same…Simpson should be on the list because Cruden Bay was so revolutionary, etc, etc, etc. 

Fazio is over-rated because Shadow Creek won’t last through the next recession due heavy maintenance costs that the oasis in the middle of a desert requires.

Etc.

Maybe if we all discuss these things and take the time to list our reasons, we can really get a solid top ten list that takes in to account what mother nature gave them to work with, how business savvy and timeless the designs are, what type of land they got to work with, etc.

If this can be done, it can be done on this site…no where else.

Jim Colton…to your point would I take the top 5 C&C courses or top 5 Doak?  I don’t know.  I’ve played Cuscowilla and LOVED it…but no more C&C’s.  And I have yet to play a Tom Doak course.  So, I can’t answer…C&C…Sandhills, Old Sandwich, Friars Head…pretty strong.  Doak…Pacific Dunes, Cape Kidnappers, Barnbougle, Ballynizzle!!!  Pretty Strong.  I think they both deserve consideration.

Also, Jim I love the numbers based approach to ranking these guys.  Could we do a regional based top ten?  Yeah…I think I have too much free time.

Did I mention I love golf?

[Mac Plumart]

Ok…this thread might be dying, but I think I’ve gathered a ton of information that I can use to research and further my golf course architecture self-education.  The ideas I laid out of potential add-ons to this thread will have to serve as the blue print for my upcoming personal work.

Nevertheless, instead of ranking the architects maybe I should simply have a non-ranked list of all-time greats.  Maybe like a Hall of Fame?

Would anyone take exception to these guys being on the list?

Mackenzie
Ross
Colt
Dye
MacDonald
Raynor
Tillinghast
Coore/Crenshaw
RT Jones
Tom Fazio
Tom Doak
Stanley Thompson
Walter Travis
Dick Wilson
Perry Maxwell,
George Thomas
William Flynn
Jack Nicklaus
Herbert Fowler
Tom Simpson
Charles Alison
James Braid
William Langford

Should any one else be in this hall of fame?

Also, here is a list of names that looks like I need to learn more about.

Gil Hanse
Jim Lipe
Jay Moorish
Floyd Farley
Th. Winton

Any others?

Remember, I am not pretending to be an expert…I am here to learn and I am all ears!!

Thanks.

[Ronald Montesano]

The only one I would add, although his body of work will never be complete, is the late and great Mike Strantz.

[Mike Nuzzo]

if you're unsure why wouldn't you link to Ian Andrew's cool list
he's seen all the work of those he's ranked:

http://thecaddyshack.blogspot.com/2007/05/do-i-dare-do-produce-list-of-top-25.html

[Mac Plumart]

Thanks, Mike!

[Mike Wagner]

AV Macan

[Mac Plumart]

AV Macan...BABY!!!!!

Never heard of him before, just search him on Yahoo and now I've got an evening or two (maybe more) of interesting research and reading.

Nice, Mike!

[Mac Plumart]

Mike Wagner...thank you!

AV Macan and Royal Colwood Golf Club, what a great lesson on the architect and the course.  I had never heard of him before your suggestion and I am very fortunate you took the time to let me know about him and, therefore, it!  Thanks, again.

To any and all...I would be appreciaitve to learn about any other off the wall names or historic courses that are lesser known, but nevertheless revolutionary, groundbreaking, or interesting.

 

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Ian Andrew came up with a Top 25 on his "Cadd yShack" blog. It's an interestng read, although I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other about his list, as many of the architects' courses are unfamiliar to me. He also produced a list of the 25 that didn't make his list.

Top 25 List.

#25 - Mike Stranz
#24 - Herbert Leeds
#23 - Henry Frownes
#22 - Max Behr
#21 - Herbert Strong
#20 - Hugh Wilson
#19 - James Braid
#18 - Walter Travis
#17 - Old Tom Morris
#16 - George Crump
#15 - Herbert Fowler
#14 - William Langford
#13 - Tom Simpson
#12 - Willie Park Jnr.
#11 - Charles Alison
#10 - William Flynn
#9 - Perry Maxwell
#8 - Seth Raynor
#7 - Stanley Thompson
#6 - Donald Ross
#5 - George Thomas
#4 - Charles Blair MacDonald
#3 - Albert Warren Tillinghast
#2 - Harry Shapland Colt
#1 - Dr. Alister MacKenzie

He didn't include active architects as he didn't want to hurt any feelings.

Some "one course wonder" architects in the above list. Plenty to discuss there, but as Tom D said, maybe it's a bit futile ranking architects. I must say I'm a bit browned off with all this ranking.

Maybe we should make November a ranking free month.

Dónal.

[Mac Plumart]

Thanks Donal.

Like I mentioned earlier in the thread...I am totally cool with not ranking them at all.  I simply wanted to get some interesting discussion going.

My ultimate goal for this thread is to increase my knowledge regarding the subject.  I've found that in reading some of these books that I've read, there are courses that are historic and groundbreaking, but no longer make these top 100 lists.  So for a newbie to the game it is hard to start from ground zero and find out about all of these historical and significant figures/courses.

As you alluded to, these rankings probably have gone to far.  But if I can discover key architects, learn why they are considered key, and play their gems...I should end up with a well rounded education regarding golf course architecture AND the history of golf. 

That is my goal.  Not randomly defining who is the #1 architect.  Maybe this will benefit others regarding the same topics.  You never know. 

One of my more difficult tasks is to figure out how much these key courses have been altered by others.  But perhaps only research and reading can help unravel all these facts.

Nevertheless, thanks a million!!!