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Bruce Wellmon

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Hybrid tees
« on: October 21, 2009, 09:09:42 AM »
I have played Carolina Golf Club in Charlotte, NC twice since their renovation.
They have "Hybrid" tees on the scorecard that are a mix of playing the back tees 9 holes and the next to the back tees 9 holes.
It shortens about 300 yards off the back tee distance. Perfect for 51 year old guys like me that think they can still play but can't quite hit it that far anymore.

How many clubs have "hybrid tees?" Does yours?
My question to GCA member/club GM Roger Wolfe is how was it determined which holes were used? 

K. Krahenbuhl

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Re: Hybrid tees
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2009, 09:17:16 AM »
I have played Carolina Golf Club in Charlotte, NC twice since their renovation.
They have "Hybrid" tees on the scorecard that are a mix of playing the back tees 9 holes and the next to the back tees 9 holes.
It shortens about 300 yards off the back tee distance. Perfect for 51 year old guys like me that think they can still play but can't quite hit it that far anymore.

How many clubs have "hybrid tees?" Does yours?
My question to GCA member/club GM Roger Wolfe is how was it determined which holes were used? 

One of the places I play here in Houston, Westwood Golf Club (Bredemus/K Foster), has what they call the "tournament tees".  They are a mix of the tips and the member tees.  Almost every group I play in uses them exclusively for their games.

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Hybrid tees
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2009, 09:21:23 AM »
I'm not sure you need Hybrid tees on the scorecard though.

Generally speaking, when I play a "championship length" course, it might be just a bit too much for me. So I tend to mix up the very back tees "pro tees" and the next to back depending on what looks interesting... Certainly did this at Kingsbarns and The Renaissance Club very recently...

...Hankley Common have a different type of hybrid... They only have 10 holes with a 5th set of very back tees (purple)... The other 8 holes have 4 sets with a tee that represents both the back and the second back (black)... That works quite well...

J Sadowsky

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Re: Hybrid tees
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2009, 09:27:20 AM »
Glenn Dale (Glenn Dale, MD/Cobb)'s gold (senior) tees are a hybrid of white members tees and red women's tees.

Jerry Kluger

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Re: Hybrid tees
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2009, 09:29:32 AM »
I have seen this more and more and I think it is a very good idea.  Some courses indicate with arrows on the scorecard which tees to play  in order to play the hybrid tees.  This is okay provided they have a course rating and slope for that set of tees.  It works well as course conditions change from soft in the spring to firm in the summer here in the Mid Atlantic area.  A 440 yard par 4 plays much different with 40 yards of roll versus no roll.

David_Tepper

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Re: Hybrid tees
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2009, 09:29:56 AM »
The Olympic Club (San Francisco) now has hybrid tees for both its courses. In fact, they have a hybrid that combines the back & middle tees and also a hybrid that combines the middle & forward tees (for seniors).

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Hybrid tees
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2009, 09:41:56 AM »
Many clubs are going this route. Some are called "mixed" tees in Arizona.  I recently played Squires GC, a men only club in the Philly 'burbs. They have a "mixed" set of tees on the course and scorecard using some tees  from the whites(5715y) and some from the blues(6439y) to come up with the greens(6257y)
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
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Jason Topp

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Re: Hybrid tees
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2009, 09:52:31 AM »
I would guess that virtually every club in the Twin Cities has these.  In most cases, I do not like them:

1.  It gets a bit silly to have 5 sets of tees with distances only 150 yards apart
2.  Not much thought seems to be put into what tee to choose.  Clubs often force the choice of 9 from one set and 9 from another.  They shorten long par 4's and par 5's.  They lengthen short par fours and par threes.  The result is far less variety in the course.  
3.  I rarely see people use them

The hybrid tees I do like are at courses that adjust back tees on certain holes where forced carries or other factors put a short hitter at an extreme disadvantage.  I have seen that in a few cases.

Will Peterson

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Re: Hybrid tees
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2009, 11:52:54 AM »
Cherokee CC in Madison, WI has scorecards for 10 different yardages.  They have 4 sets of tees, and each scorecard mixes them together to get the desired yardage.  They do also offer two additional sets of tees for juniors located in the fairways.

I really liked the idea, but I don't think they did it right.  I played the 6900 card (all the way back was 7200).  All of the par 5's were off the back (570-600), all the par 4's were off the first in (350-420), and you played one par 3 from each set (150, 180, 200, 220).  I think the par 3's were done right, but the 4's and 5's should have been mixed some.  Why not have a couple of shorter par 5's and put some of the par 4's back (they have a few in the 440-480 range).  I found that I had short irons into all the par 4's and had to hit driver, 3 wd, wedge to all the par 5's.

I think it is a good way to mix it up for the membership.  It is easy enough to do on your own, but I don't think too many people think of it and just play the same tees everytime.  At  my home course I usually play the two back sets, but play them all on occasion.  I have a great deal of difficulty getting most poeople to move from their normal tee (6700).  Very few can handle the 7400, but most do not want to play the 6200 as they feel it is too short.  I have found that playing a few rounds a year from the 5300 set is a lot of fun.  It really shows any weakness in your short game.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hybrid tees
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2009, 11:55:19 AM »
If memory serves me right, I believe BlackRock has such an arrangement.  It uses arrows on the card to indiciate if you should play one tee back or one tee forward. .... I thought it was kind of neat!

John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hybrid tees
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2009, 12:22:50 PM »
The Bay Club in Mattapoisett has it on their card as of this year and I like it. The easier holes are toughened up and the tougher holes do not stand out as much.

You can tend to loose some fun in this case. Missing out the short par 3 & 4's
Integrity in the moment of choice

CJ Carder

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hybrid tees
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2009, 12:33:49 PM »
I would love to see this at a lot of courses, but I wonder if, instead of mandating which tees constitute the "hybrid course," is there a way that the USGA rating system could provide a slope and a rating on a "per hole / per tee" basis and, in effect, allow golfers to sort of "choose their own adventure?"  That way, you could truly leave it up to the golfer which course he wants to play and make it more interesting as you go around. 

Bruce Wellmon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hybrid tees
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2009, 01:01:45 PM »
CJ,
     I was told in passing by my pro that each hole has a slope/rating and you could just taly them up. But that info has not been distributed to the membership at my club or posted that I am aware of. But, now, I am going to ask for it. I truly enjoyed the "hybrids" at Carolina GC.

Sean_A

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Re: Hybrid tees
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2009, 01:08:08 PM »
I really like the idea of mix and match tees, but I find it hilarious that folks are "looking for handicap permission" to do so.  Have we gone this far with the numbers game that guys won't instinctively choose their tees unless there is a slope and rating for them?   

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

CJ Carder

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hybrid tees
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2009, 01:12:09 PM »
I really like the idea of mix and match tees, but I find it hilarious that folks are "looking for handicap permission" to do so.  Have we gone this far with the numbers game that guys won't instinctively choose their tees unless there is a slope and rating for them?   

Ciao

Sean,

I don't need handicap permission in order to play different tees - there are 2 holes on my home course where we play the back tees instead of our normal middle tees just because the view and the angle is better.  Yet even playing these holes differently, I'm still forced to enter my scores from the "middle" tees.  Being the detailed numbers guy that I am, it's just not "perfectly accurate."  If you had the handicap information for each hole, one could theoretically play the same club a hundred times, post a score for handicap purposes every round, and not have played the same course twice!

CJ

Brent Hutto

Re: Hybrid tees
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2009, 01:13:10 PM »
I really like the idea of mix and match tees, but I find it hilarious that folks are "looking for handicap permission" to do so.  Have we gone this far with the numbers game that guys won't instinctively choose their tees unless there is a slope and rating for them? 

The answer is "Yes, absolutely" for every single golfer I know except for a few of the (apparent) oddballs I've met through this forum.

I can think of a handful of guys at my club who would not only refuse to play an unrated tee combination but if I were to mention having done so they would give me a lecture of sandbagging or vanity handicapping or refer me to the handicap committee or some such bullshit. No joke. Fortunately, they do not seem to notice when I go to England for 10 days and fail to post a single score upon my return.

Ed Oden

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Re: Hybrid tees
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2009, 01:46:23 PM »
I have played Carolina Golf Club in Charlotte, NC twice since their renovation.
They have "Hybrid" tees on the scorecard that are a mix of playing the back tees 9 holes and the next to the back tees 9 holes.
It shortens about 300 yards off the back tee distance. Perfect for 51 year old guys like me that think they can still play but can't quite hit it that far anymore.

How many clubs have "hybrid tees?" Does yours?
My question to GCA member/club GM Roger Wolfe is how was it determined which holes were used? 

Bruce, I hope you enjoyed your rounds at Carolina.  I know Roger is out today, so I will give a quick response until he gets back.  The hybrid tees at Carolina (we call them the "Ross" tees) are clearly the most popular at the club.  So if usage is your measuring stick, then they are a big hit.  But in my view there is an even better barometer for the success of hybrid tees than popularity.  My preferred tees at Carolina are the back tees and I will play from there if the choice is mine.  However, I also regularly play with guys of varying handicaps from the hybrid tees.  What I like about our set up is that (with the exception of one hole) moving up to the hybrids from the tips only affects the club I hit off the tee.  IT DOES NOT ALTER THE WAY THE HOLE PLAYS.  In other words, the course still plays as intended.  And I think that is a credit to the thoughtful approach taken to which holes utilize a forward tee because I am not sure I could make the same statement if the tees were moved up on certain other holes.

Ed


Roger Wolfe

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Re: Hybrid tees
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2009, 04:12:43 PM »
Our hybrid tees were specifically chosen based on a 200 yard tee shot.  If you can hit the ball 200 yards... you can play these tees and have a nice variety of clubs to the green.  The hybrids were also created so the good player would be adequately challenged and willing to play from closer up.  Black is 7011... Blue is 6453.  I will list the yardages of each hole... and where we play the hybrid tee.

Hole  Black Ydg/Blue Ydg
#1   543/512 Hybrid is Black
#2   397/374 But there is a 238 yard carry from the back tee.  Hybrid is Blue
#3   232/201 Hybrid is Blue
#4   430/411 Hybrid is Blue
#5   423/377 Hybrid is Black
#6   410/388 Hybrid is Black
#7   448/406 Hybrid is Blue
#8   556/505 Hybrid is Blue
#9   237/186 Hybrid is Blue
#10 404/385 Hybrid is Black
#11 405/376 Hybrid is Black
#12 140/125 Hybrid is Black
#13 503/470 Hybrid is Black
#14 369/351 Hybrid is Black
#15 441/420 Hybrid is Blue
#16 221/200 Hybrid is Blue
#17 433/384 Hybrid is Blue
#18 419/382 Hybrid is Black

The only thing I would change is #10.  We have built a new tee PLUS there was a strange "rule"
invented that said you needed 9 back tees and 9 blue tees.  Most of the players for whom the
hybrids were created are currently hitting 3 wood into #10 green which is not what the green
or bunkering was designed for. Plus a critical fairway bunker is out of play.

Overall its been great.  Our tee boxes are uncluttered and it keeps a lot of folks "challenged" enough
not to play from a tee they shouldn't.  Our white tees are 5891 and we are now being asked to
create a blue/white hybrid in the 6100 range for the high handicap 50 year olds who have trouble
with the blue tees but aren't ready to go white.

So far so good!



 
« Last Edit: October 21, 2009, 04:14:33 PM by Roger Wolfe »

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hybrid tees
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2009, 04:13:12 PM »
I would love to see this at a lot of courses, but I wonder if, instead of mandating which tees constitute the "hybrid course," is there a way that the USGA rating system could provide a slope and a rating on a "per hole / per tee" basis and, in effect, allow golfers to sort of "choose their own adventure?"  That way, you could truly leave it up to the golfer which course he wants to play and make it more interesting as you go around. 

The USGA Handicap Manual addresses this precise situation.  http://www.usga.org/bookrule.aspx?id=14379#5-2

The only info you need is how much longer or shorter the course is than the distance from the nearest set of tees.  You adjust the rating by approximately 1 stroke per 220 yards.  You also adjust the slope based on the chart.




Example 2: A man plays nine holes from the forward tees, which are not rated for men. The men's nine-hole USGA Course Rating from the middle tees is 34.8, with a Slope Rating of 117. The forward tees are 195 yards shorter than the middle tees. He enters the 187 to 208 yard range to subtract 0.9 from the USGA Course Rating and the 385 to 406 yard range (195 x 2 = 390) to subtract four from the Slope Rating of the middle tees.
He will post his score with a USGA Course Rating of 33.9 (34.8 - 0.9) and a Slope Rating of 113 (117 - 4).

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hybrid tees
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2009, 04:20:05 PM »
This is the obviously preferrable solution to having 6 tee boxes on every hole...3 tees and a mix and match should be plenty for most courses...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hybrid tees
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2009, 08:28:21 PM »
We have two composite courses for men, and one composite course for women.   We have special scorecards printed for the composite courses, each of which has its own course rating and slope.

Carl Rogers

Re: Hybrid tees
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2009, 08:34:06 PM »
If you are playing 36 in a single day, try the white tees on the even numbered holes and the back tees on the odd numbered holes on the first 18 and then alternate on the second 18.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hybrid tees
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2009, 08:38:53 PM »
I really like the idea of mix and match tees, but I find it hilarious that folks are "looking for handicap permission" to do so.  Have we gone this far with the numbers game that guys won't instinctively choose their tees unless there is a slope and rating for them?   

Ciao

With GPS devices so readily available, they could be programmed to automatically produce the correct rating a slope no matter how much you mixed up tees.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hybrid tees
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2009, 09:21:40 PM »
Willow Oaks has hybrid (combination) tees. I like it a lot. From the USGA website the ratings

http://63.240.106.223/natcrsrating/courseTeeInfo.aspx?assocID=571&crsCourseID=930

Course Rating Search Results
 

Club Name  Course Name  Club City  Club State 
Willow Oaks Country Club  Willow Oaks Country Club Combo  Richmond  VA 

Men's Rating 
Tee:  BLACK/BLUE   

 Course Rating  Bogey Rating  Slope 
Overall:  73.3  98.8  137 
Front Nine:  36.8  50.0  142 
Back Nine:  36.5  48.8  132 

 
Tee:  BLUE/GREEN   

 Course Rating  Bogey Rating  Slope 
Overall:  71.8  96.4  133 
Front Nine:  35.9  48.7  138 
Back Nine:  35.9  47.7  127 

 
Tee:  GREEN/WHITE   

 Course Rating  Bogey Rating  Slope 
Overall:  69.7  93.5  128 
Front Nine:  34.9  47.3  133 
Back Nine:  34.8  46.2  123 

 
Tee:  GOLD/SILVER   

 Course Rating  Bogey Rating  Slope 
Overall:  65.1  87.0  118 
Front Nine:  32.6  43.8  121 
Back Nine:  32.5  43.2  115 

 
Tee:  RAINBOW   

 Course Rating  Bogey Rating  Slope 
Overall:  72.6  97.6  135 
Front Nine:  36.5  49.4  139 
Back Nine:  36.1  48.2  130 

  Women's Rating 
Tee:  GREEN/WHITE   

 Course Rating  Bogey Rating  Slope 
Overall:  75.2  107.3  136 
Front Nine:  37.6  53.8  137 
Back Nine:  37.6  53.5  135 

 
Tee:  GOLD/SILVER   

 Course Rating  Bogey Rating  Slope 
Overall:  70.2  99.6  125 
Front Nine:  35.2  50.1  126 
Back Nine:  35.0  49.5  123 

 
 

Cory Lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hybrid tees
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2009, 07:48:01 AM »
On one of my recent trips I remember hybrid sets at Cog Hill #4 and Firestone South.  I played the hybrid set at Firestone and enjoyed it very much, some of the 440 + par 4's were played from the member tees which made it much more reasonable for a short hitter like me.  It was stiil fairly long, 6875 par 70, but much better than the tips at 7400 yards.
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