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Robert Mercer Deruntz

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Stephen Kay--Why does he get hired?
« on: October 20, 2009, 08:11:32 PM »
There must be more than a thousand architects who have a better ability at building bunkers, restoring greens, and building new tees.
A solid study of this can be found at Sunningdale where DeVries is undoing an almost disasterous mess.  Though there might be a few misses at this point in the work, what existed before was beyond terrible. 

Matt_Ward

Re: Stephen Kay--Why does he get hired?
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2009, 12:46:48 AM »
RMD:

Hold the phone for just a second OK -- are we talking about restoration work or original designs ?

If you can help me understand things better -- have you played any original Kay designs ? If so which ones and what were your impressions ?

Kay's work at LND and Links at Unionvale are two good courses -- ditto his work at Scotland Run -- the Jersey-located course is one of the best public in the Garden State in my mind.


V. Kmetz

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Re: Stephen Kay--Why does he get hired?
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2009, 01:00:18 AM »
I have to volunteer that Kay's work at Siwanoy, a Ross course in Bronxville, NY, was tastefully done - though his expansion/re-invention of two water hazards on the Back 9 (#s 12 and 16) are shocking to the eye if you knew what was there for 80 years before.  But in the main, I think his work there (combined with the single most aggressive tree removal I'm aware of) was restorative and intelligent.
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Stephen Kay--Why does he get hired?
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2009, 05:58:17 AM »
Robert
I saw Kay's restoration work at Oyster Harbors first hand.  He gave the bunkering the typical Ross look when they original course had big flashed bunkers. It was very disappointing.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Stephen Kay--Why does he get hired?
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2009, 10:40:36 AM »
Didn't Kay redo Seawane in Long Island?  The work there is quite good, though the rather flat fairways could have been crumpled a bit for more interest.

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Stephen Kay--Why does he get hired?
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2009, 10:53:11 AM »
Everybody who has played Forsgate (Banks Course) loves it.
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Tom MacWood

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Re: Stephen Kay--Why does he get hired?
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2009, 11:04:51 AM »
Lou
I think you are correct about Kay redesiging Emmet's Seawane, but isn't that the point, that restoration is not his forte.

Jay
What exactly did Kay do at Forsgate-Banks? I found a couple of articles that said he lengthened the course with new tees. Didn't most love the course before the new tees?

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Stephen Kay--Why does he get hired?
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2009, 11:22:56 AM »
I'd say getting them to extend the biarritz green so that the swale is part of the green is pretty good...there were also some other nips and tucks to a few more holes.



Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Stephen Kay--Why does he get hired?
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2009, 11:30:13 AM »
Robert,

I thought the name of this thread is a little harsh, especially since I have played three of four of Kay's new designs that are very good.  It is his Emmet renovation (b/c it sure as hell is not restoration) work that I have a problem with.  I do not know what input the ownership / commitees are giving him, but the final product has not been Emmet restoration.

Tom,

As for his work at Foresgate - Banks Course, Matt Ward held an event there several years ago (7 or 8 I believe) and they were expanding the Biarritz green to include the front half and in general terms the course did not look like a bastardized Banks course.  Thus, I am not sure what Kay's role has been there or when he was brought on board.  IMO, it did not look like it was in need of a lot of tender loving care.

All

Seawane was not a restoration, but a renovation.  Beyond the greens, there was not a lot of Emmet there as RTJ sr. (I believe) eliminated a lot of Emmet in the 60's and planted a TON of sycamore trees.  The final product which was heavy handed from several of the members with Kay's help was much improved upon what was there.

Chris



« Last Edit: October 21, 2009, 11:38:07 AM by Chris_Blakely »

Rick Sides

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Stephen Kay--Why does he get hired?
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2009, 02:39:21 PM »
I second the work of Stephen Kay as being very good.  His design of Scotland Run in NJ and Blue Heron Pines are both very fun and interesting courses to play.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Stephen Kay--Why does he get hired?
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2009, 03:18:16 PM »
Robert, I'm not exactly sure when the work at Sunningdale was done. It appeared to me to be influenced by the 1990's era. The work he did there was likely more than passable to the majority of golfers. As 1990's influenced architecture goes, Kaye's work in Scarsdale was low key, (compared to some of the really hideous stuff from that era) probably only objectionable to a critical eye. Isn't Dr. Kaye An LA Prof. @ Rutgers?

When I heard him speak, and then played Links of N. Dakota, he spoke passionately about the subject. I didn't agree with some of his aesthetics but he was honest about what HE liked. Easy to see how he could find others who'd agree with him and some might even sit on greens committees.

 
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Stephen Kay--Why does he get hired?
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2009, 03:19:19 PM »
Robert,

I have never seen the work of Stephen Kay.....so I can't offer an opinion nor would I.  But you seem to be a nice guy so what does this question gain anyone?   I am so tired of the trash talk that goes on in this business whether it be other architects, contractors or individuals not even connected with a project.....you never know who will read this stuff and run with it.....
But the only obvious is.....someone is hiring him.... ;D

Cheers,
Mike
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Matt_Ward

Re: Stephen Kay--Why does he get hired?
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2009, 03:21:36 PM »
Jay:

Well said in regards to what Kay did at Forsgate -- the 17th is a great example. He also -- if memory serves, strengthened the reverse redan 7th and suggested a return to the wide fairways that were allowed to be narrowed over time.

I also like what happened at Seawane -- renovation or whatever one wishes to call it. The place needed some work and Kay provided a solid effort on there behalf.

Gents:

Clearly people who do restoration work -- or the desire to keep things in the same ballpark may make serious misjudgements but that doesn't mean that any architect hits all home runs or to suggest that everything Kay touches is a strike out. His core of original designs is quite good as I and others have mentioned.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Stephen Kay--Why does he get hired?
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2009, 03:22:25 PM »
Robert,

I disagree with your statement that "There must be more than a thousand architects who have a better ability at building bunkers, restoring greens, and building new tees" if only because I don't believe there are 1000 golf course architects.......

And I agree with Mike. It seems Kay has some well thought of work.  However, when it comes to "restoration" blood can run quite hot and opinions be sort of narrow.  So, its not like he is any different than most any other gca out there restoring courses, is it?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Stephen Kay--Why does he get hired?
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2009, 03:38:12 PM »
Jay:

Well said in regards to what Kay did at Forsgate -- the 17th is a great example. He also -- if memory serves, strengthened the reverse redan 7th and suggested a return to the wide fairways that were allowed to be narrowed over time.

I also like what happened at Seawane -- renovation or whatever one wishes to call it. The place needed some work and Kay provided a solid effort on there behalf.

Gents:

Clearly people who do restoration work -- or the desire to keep things in the same ballpark may make serious misjudgements but that doesn't mean that any architect hits all home runs or to suggest that everything Kay touches is a strike out. His core of original designs is quite good as I and others have mentioned.

Matt,
I am sure the ODG's looking down would be much more comfortable with someone such as SK who has original designs out there than those that do not.....you know the ODG's can zoom down and fly over his originals in the evenings  ;D ;D ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Stephen Kay--Why does he get hired?
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2009, 05:16:46 PM »
There must be more than a thousand architects who have a better ability at building bunkers, restoring greens, and building new tees.
A solid study of this can be found at Sunningdale where DeVries is undoing an almost disasterous mess.  Though there might be a few misses at this point in the work, what existed before was beyond terrible. 

I haven't seen Kay's work so I can't comment but on a larger scale, how architects get jobs is in many cases knowing people and wine and dining.  I have a friend who is an entertainer and he says "Show Business is 80% business and 20% show".  To me its the same with golf architects.

Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Stephen Kay--Why does he get hired?
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2009, 08:02:09 PM »
I have played 5 Kay designs, but not the ones above mentioned.  I can say that his Wind Watch course rates among the worst layouts on LI.  Not much more can be said about The Hamlet or Hamlet Willoow Creek.  In his defense, these were tight real estate driven courses--however, a better architect could have done better.
   My most scathing criticism is reserved to his work on quite a few wonderful courses that were in need of bunker restoration and green expansion.  At Cherry Valley his masterplan did not address these issues but involved planting another 100+ unneeded pine trees.  At Seawane, the greens committee had a very significant involvement, especially concerning the aesthetics.
   These pictures are an example of his work at Leewood.  This is a really cool Emmett course that could use soom tree management and returning the bunkers to their original style and green expansion.  None of these issues have been addrressed.  To my eye, these bunkers are stylistically way out of place.


Matt_Ward

Re: Stephen Kay--Why does he get hired?
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2009, 10:13:03 PM »
RMD:

I concur with your comments on Wind Watch but let's start again from the top shall we - you said "there must be more than a thousand architects" -- you need to really see and play some of his finest original work before you make such a blanket comment which does nothing more than expose your own ignorance.

I fully admit that Kay, and many other architects, can fail at bringing back to life a number of the old time courses. If your comment was tied to that element, and that element alone, I would agree it takes a very special architect to bury their own impulses while at the same time trying to resurrect what was previously there. Ken Dye faced a similar situation with his work on a few of the Westchester layouts.

Your database of Kay courses is incomplete for you to make such a blanket and below the belt indictment, in my mind.

Kay has done very well with the likes of The Links at Unionvale in Lagrangeville, NY -- a layout that gets scant attention but was done well. Ditto his fine work previously mentioned at Scotland Run, The Links of North Dakota at Red Mike Resort, McCullough's Emerald Links, Blue Heron Pines / West, etc, etc.

You also have not been at Forsgate / Banks where Kay worked closely with owner Chris Schiavone in bringing to life the famed par-3 17th there along with widerning a number of fairways so that the width angles previously favored by Banks would once again be present.

Robert, I respect your comments but you need to play a few more of the other layouts in better understanding the capabilities that Kay has. I am not saying he has done as well as his best but my portfolio of his work is a bit more comprehensive and gives me a much wider appreciation (both good and bad) of what he has done.

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Stephen Kay--Why does he get hired?
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2009, 11:33:27 PM »
Mr. Deruntz, what is your (ulterior?) motive behind being so tactless?  If you would speak of concepts your question might be worthy of discussion but your targeting an individual makes this GCA fellow (admittedly self-cast in a minor role) suspicious.
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Stephen Kay--Why does he get hired?
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2009, 04:35:32 AM »
Didn't Kay redo Seawane in Long Island?  The work there is quite good, though the rather flat fairways could have been crumpled a bit for more interest.


Lou,

How can you classify the work at Seawane as a "redo" ?

Chris Blakely,

Would you say that Seawane as it stands today, is what you would have done had you been brought in to revise the golf course ?
Or, do you feel that what exists today is a radical departure from Emmett's original work.

Are you sure that RTJ Sr revised the golf course in the 60's ?

I first played Seawane in 1970 and didn't notice an abundance of Sycamore trees on the property.
In fact, it was rather wide open and devoid of trees once you got past the first hole.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2009, 04:49:40 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

Ray Richard

Re: Stephen Kay--Why does he get hired?
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2009, 05:53:49 AM »
Stephen has a spirited view of deal making. His design work has a conservative bent, but he is often guided by meddling committee members. I've seen his work behind the scenes, pushing golf projects past municipal politics. Many golf architects can do the hand-waving and site visits, but few can push a deal forward like Stephen.

FYI, Oyster Harbors just hired a new super from NGLA. They are currently renovating all the bunkers. I think Ron Forse is the architect.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Stephen Kay--Why does he get hired?
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2009, 07:41:56 AM »
RMD:

I concur with your comments on Wind Watch --

I am not saying he has done as well as his best but my portfolio of his work is a bit more comprehensive and gives me a much wider appreciation (both good and bad) of what he has done.

a "portfolio of his work"-- that sounds like how I got through high school ;D

...and Robert, no more "frank commentary" until you've played every course in the nation/world.
 ???

If, at someone else's suggestion,  I tried eating brussel sprouts and hated them (which I do), and then tried califlower (and hated it), I wouldn't need to try beets,  peas, eggplant,  and spinach to determine I still hated brussel sprouts and califlower and I would question the opinion of whoever suggested and cooked them  ;)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Stephen Kay--Why does he get hired?
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2009, 07:43:01 AM »
Didn't Kay redo Seawane in Long Island?  The work there is quite good, though the rather flat fairways could have been crumpled a bit for more interest.


Lou,

How can you classify the work at Seawane as a "redo" ?

Chris Blakely,

Would you say that Seawane as it stands today, is what you would have done had you been brought in to revise the golf course ?
Or, do you feel that what exists today is a radical departure from Emmett's original work.

Are you sure that RTJ Sr revised the golf course in the 60's ?

I first played Seawane in 1970 and didn't notice an abundance of Sycamore trees on the property.
In fact, it was rather wide open and devoid of trees once you got past the first hole.



Pat Mucci and All,

Emmet's name has one t at the end not two!

In the mid-60's RTJ Sr and Frank Duane renovated the course and completely rebunkered it.  According to the pro and members I played with at Seawane, after the World's Fair in NY in 64, they had a lot of Sycamore trees left after; the trees were brought in from there.  Is it possible Pat Mucci, that your memory is off and not the members I played with??

As for what I would have done, as I said above, what Stephen Kay did was much improved upon what was there and returned the course to a links-type one.  I really like his final product.  What would I have done, I would love to have restored the numerous Emmet bunkers to the course that are shown on the old aerials, but like Mr. Kay, I would have eliminated trees and restored the links-style as he did.  The end product of Mr. Kay is very good, but did NOT restore Emmet’s (one t) bunkering.  As was said in the trial in the movie a few good men, these are the facts and they are undisputed – Emmet’s bunkering scheme was not restored period.

Chris

Matt_Ward

Re: Stephen Kay--Why does he get hired?
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2009, 10:53:57 AM »
Jeff W:

Let me try -- again -- to help your misunderstanding of what I said.

A person posts that an architect in question - Kay - is easily below the top 1,000 in the field.

The same person posts a few layouts but fails to have played other courses significantly
beyond the ones he has only played. I would think that before a person trashes a person so conclusively that they
would take upon themselves to have played a far more conclusive listing of that person's work and then
weigh in with a comment.

I don't doubt -- as I said -- that someone who engages in restoration work may not be up to what is required on that
front -- but that doesn't mean to say that the same architect has not created other courses of note.

The issue is not playing "every course" but before someone throws someone so utterly under the bus it would behoove such
a person to have done a good bit more homework in fairness to the very person who is being assailed for having
so little talent in the subject field.

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Stephen Kay--Why does he get hired?
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2009, 11:12:48 AM »
I think you'll find his comments on how he does his restorations interesting.  You'll also find interesting the story about how one timew in his career he didn't fight hard enough for tree removal and lost a job later down the road because that club's officials wanted trees removed.  Now he's tougher on the issue.

http://www.golfobserver.com/blog/blognews/buzz/2009/10/14/stephenkayjay

From the interview:

JF: What mistake would you like to have over again?

S. Kay: What? Like that girl I dated in college?

[Laughter]

Well let’s see…get everything in writing!

[More laughter]

Okay, besides that, trees are a big issue. If I could have a dollar every time someone said, “the tree makes the hole,” my wife and I could go to on some nice vacations! People fall in love with trees. Thank goodness for Oakmont and Winged Foot that in the last seven years! Those golf course have done intense tree clearing, which has made it easier to cut down trees at courses around the country.

So at plenty of courses, I’ve had arguments and difficulty to convince clubs to cut down trees, and so its easier now to get clubs to cut down trees than it was twenty years ago. Well about 15 – 17 years ago, I was at a course which put out proposals to renovate the course. They got 15 proposals, and I got one of 5 interviews. After the interview, the Greens Chair called me and said that the members and the chairman liked you, and they wanted to go see what you renovated recently. Well one job had a couple key trees on a couple holes that the club fought to not cut down. They didn’t allow me to remove them, and they were just stupid trees. Well the chairman of the course of the job I wanted visited this course and asked about my work.

Two weeks go by, I hear nothing. So I called them and they had decided on someone else, but the green chair said the fact that I didn’t get the stupid trees down, they couldn’t use me. He said that their course had a lot of stupid trees that needed to come down, and he needed a strong personality to get some of their trees down. He told me I needed to get stronger and tougher. He said I should have been tougher on getting the trees cut down at the other club, or walked away. Because I wasn’t more forceful at the smaller course earlier in my career, it cost me a nicer renovation job at a more prestigious club because I didn’t have the chutzpah to stand up and insist stupid trees come down.

JF: How do you deal with the dilemma of restoring a course to its old design, but with technology advances, still making it challenging to the best golfers?

S. Kay: Is the old style from someone famous and is it worth preserving? Next, was the architect actually on the site or did he mail the work in? As an example, let’s look at the character of the bunkers. Tillie in his drawings just did simple egg-shaped ovals to tell the builder on site where to put the bunker, but he didn’t draw shapes on his plans…but he did more ornate work when he went into the field. But his foremen just did what they saw in the drawing…but when Tillie was on-site a lot the bunkers had more ornate details. But when he wasn’t on the site, you could tell because the bunker shapes were much more simple. So when I restored Lakewood, for instance, we made them more ornate because we wanted to create what Tillie would have done if he were on site during construction.

Next, I sometimes need to move something to get more yardage for the course, and get the bunkers into back into play for who they were intended to be in play. First I try to move tees, then move the bunkers if I can’t move the tees back. It’s a very conscious thought. If Tillie, Ross, or Mackenzie could come back today, the first thing I thing I think they would do is examine the game for three months if not a year. They’d play the courses, try the new clubs, and then see the pros and watch the speed of the greens and how the ball flies. After that, how would they renovate their course? That’s how I try to think

Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

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