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David Stamm

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Re: MacKenzie pitch and putt in the SF area
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2009, 10:16:32 AM »
Neil is correct. The Lloyd course was done by Billy Bell.
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Patrick Kiser

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Re: MacKenzie pitch and putt in the SF area
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2009, 01:29:26 PM »
Quote from: Neil_Crafter on October 22, 2009, 10:05:02 AM
Patrick
As for the suggestion AM's bones were interred on Mare Island, I think that is a very far fetched rumour. I thought he was cremated and his ashes spread at Pasatiempo?
cheers Neil



Either lol or no  ;D

Bones as in AM being involved in some way in the course's design.  Didn't think so, but it's claimed on their site I believe.



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“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

Neil_Crafter

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Re: MacKenzie pitch and putt in the SF area
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2009, 02:31:10 PM »
Wow Patrick - that was way too obscure for me I'm afraid!! Apologies for misconstruing what you said, but I just took it at face value.
I don't think I've come across a rumour of AM involvement in the Mare island course, but one to check out.
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Neil_Crafter

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Re: MacKenzie pitch and putt in the SF area
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2009, 03:17:45 PM »
Patrick
I have played the Mare Island course a few years back with the architect Robin Nelson and Brett Mogg. A fun day.
Just looked at their history section on the course website but could find no mention of Mackenzie.
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Neil_Crafter

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Re: MacKenzie pitch and putt in the SF area
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2009, 03:43:07 PM »
David
I have found the reference I was after - it is from the Making of the Masters by David Owen. Mackenzie wrote to Wendell Miller in 1932 that "A really good one requires as much thought and planning as a full course. All  those I have seen are terrible. I am just constructing one here (near San Francisco) which I hope will be most fascinating."

Interesting that he says it is "near" San Francisco, rather than "in" San Francisco. Also gives a date of 1932 for its construction which might be a bit of a clue.

I may have been wrong when I said it was from "Spirit of St Andrews" - having checked this again I found the section where he talks about short courses but there was no mention of San Francisco.
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David Stamm

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Re: MacKenzie pitch and putt in the SF area
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2009, 05:16:52 PM »
Quote from: Neil_Crafter on October 22, 2009, 03:43:07 PM
David
I have found the reference I was after - it is from the Making of the Masters by David Owen. Mackenzie wrote to Wendell Miller in 1932 that "A really good one requires as much thought and planning as a full course. All  those I have seen are terrible. I am just constructing one here (near San Francisco) which I hope will be most fascinating."

Interesting that he says it is "near" San Francisco, rather than "in" San Francisco. Also gives a date of 1932 for its construction which might be a bit of a clue.

I may have been wrong when I said it was from "Spirit of St Andrews" - having checked this again I found the section where he talks about short courses but there was no mention of San Francisco.


That's where I found the reference as well, in Owens book. "Near" could be a pretty broad area. Wasn't there a short course at Woodside that was built?
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Kevin_Reilly

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Re: MacKenzie pitch and putt in the SF area
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2009, 06:14:09 PM »
Quote from: David Stamm on October 22, 2009, 05:16:52 PM
That's where I found the reference as well, in Owens book. "Near" could be a pretty broad area. Wasn't there a short course at Woodside that was built?

Your post reminded me of this gem...Woodside Country Club:

http://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/gordon-ratliff-mackenzie-woodside-cc

Sorry for the threadjack.
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Tom MacWood

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Re: MacKenzie pitch and putt in the SF area
« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2009, 11:45:48 AM »
I re-read the excerpt in the book and the 'near San Francisco' is in brackets, which presumably means Owen added it not Mackenzie. At the time Mackenzie was living in Santa Cruz (near SF), but my guess is 'here' could be anywhere in California.
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Neil_Crafter

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Re: MacKenzie pitch and putt in the SF area
« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2009, 12:28:47 PM »
Tom
Yes the brackets could have been added by Owen, but I'm wondering how Owen would know where it was? My feel is that the brackets were there in Mac's letter. But as ANGC hang on to this correspondence with the equivalent of a Spock death grip we may never know. I have asked ANGC on behalf of the Alister Mackenzie Society for access to just one letter where Mac talks about St Andrews in NY, but without apparent success yet. I also tried contacting Owen but he was not willing to give anything away, perhaps he had to sign some sort of secrecy agreement or they are holding his first born or something similar.
Neil
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Tom MacWood

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Re: MacKenzie pitch and putt in the SF area
« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2009, 01:08:16 PM »
Neil
Thats too bad about those letters, it makes me wonder what else they may contain.

I looked at the letters I have written by Mackenzie to see if he used brackets and/or parentheses, and it didn't find an example of either being used. I could see Owen specifying to the reader where 'here' was; I'm not sure why Mackenzie would need specify to Miller where 'here' was.

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Neil_Crafter

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Re: MacKenzie pitch and putt in the SF area
« Reply #35 on: October 24, 2009, 02:10:26 AM »
Tom
I'm sure all the Mackenzie correspondence they have is a treasure trove. As I said I tried writing to them but no response.

Maybe you are right and the brackets were added by Owen. How would he know it was near SF, unless it was mentioned in another letter perhaps? Perhaps the letter was not written when he was home in Pasatiempo, perhaps he wrote it from a hotel somewhere. If we could just see them............
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Tom MacWood

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Re: MacKenzie pitch and putt in the SF area
« Reply #36 on: October 24, 2009, 09:20:34 AM »
I suspect Owen just assumed 'here' meant somewhere near Santa Cruz. I thought about the letter being written from a hotel too, but if the hotel was in SF and he meant here to be SF, wouldn't the letter say in SF not near SF? In fact I don't think it makes sense to write here and near SF (its kind of redundant), wouldn't he just write a golf course near SF and leave out the here? Its a more economical use of words. On the other hand we all do goofy things and maybe this is an example. Now that I haver thoroughly confused myself I will begin looking for the course in Beverly Hills.
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TEPaul

Re: MacKenzie pitch and putt in the SF area
« Reply #37 on: October 24, 2009, 09:58:35 AM »
Have you guys read David Outerbridge's biography of Marion Hollins? From that book it seems to me Marion was like a complete personality magnet for a lot of those guys in golf out there back then (essentially with the job of populating up the membership of CPC among many other things as she knew so many people who seemed to be drawn to her for various reasons). Did she ever have connections, particularly in the worlds of Hollywood and eastern and western high financiers, not to even mention the fact that she struck it bigtime in the oil well investment business.

Somewhere I remember reading that AM sent Marion to ANGC in his stead at some point.

I say look for references to Marion too in old accounts and it might lead to AM and others out there then. David Outerbridge passed away a few years; but his wife was Marion's great neice!
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Neil_Crafter

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Re: MacKenzie pitch and putt in the SF area
« Reply #38 on: March 18, 2011, 07:54:25 AM »
I am pleased to report that, thanks to an article in the Santa Cruz Sentinel found by Bob Beck of Pasatiempo, we know now where Mackenzie's par 3 course was located in the SF area. It was a private approach and putt course built for SF furniture retailer Gustave Lachman (of Lachman Bros) on his 15 acre property in Hillsborough in San Mateo County, at 1225 San Raymundo Road. Lachman built a 20 room Tudor style mansion on the property, which was completed in 1932. Mackenzie's short course was nine holes and was apparently lit for night use according to one later article I found. The course was officially opened in July 1932.

By 1944 the property had been reduced down to 3.2 acres which would have meant the course was gone, replaced by subdivided houses. The house built by Lachman still stands though and it is quite spectacular. Sold in 2010 for around $8 million.

If there is any interest I can post the article and some pictures of the house.
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Patrick Kiser

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Re: MacKenzie pitch and putt in the SF area
« Reply #39 on: March 18, 2011, 04:03:51 PM »
Neil,

Good stuff.

Yes, please post the article and pics, if it's not too much trouble.  Would love to see this.
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“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

David Stamm

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Re: MacKenzie pitch and putt in the SF area
« Reply #40 on: March 18, 2011, 04:47:46 PM »
Thanks, Neil! Wonderful tenacity in finding this out. I agree with Patrick, if you could post the article those items, that would be great. Well done!
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Doug_Nickels

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Re: MacKenzie pitch and putt in the SF area
« Reply #41 on: March 18, 2011, 04:57:37 PM »
« Last Edit: March 18, 2011, 05:21:56 PM by Doug_Nickels »
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MHiserman

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Re: MacKenzie pitch and putt in the SF area
« Reply #42 on: March 18, 2011, 05:10:22 PM »
Sorry to jump back in the discussion
Gib- It was clearly a hallucination.
M
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"Whether my schedule for the next day called for a tournament round or a trip to the practice tee, the prospect that there was going to be golf in it made me feel priviledged and extremely happy, and I couldn't wait for the sun to come up the next morning so that I could get on the course"-BH

Neil_Crafter

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Re: MacKenzie pitch and putt in the SF area
« Reply #43 on: March 18, 2011, 05:41:21 PM »
Doug
Brilliant find with the aerial. Looks like the course only occupied a small portion in the north-east portion of the 15 acre site.

Patrick and David, I will post the article and some photos of the house shortly.
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Niall C

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Re: MacKenzie pitch and putt in the SF area
« Reply #44 on: March 18, 2011, 05:48:01 PM »
Well done to all. From the briefest of mentions to tracking down the ownership, address and an aerial of the course. Great work.

Niall
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Neil_Crafter

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Re: MacKenzie pitch and putt in the SF area
« Reply #45 on: March 18, 2011, 06:08:59 PM »
Original article was in the Santa Cruz sentinel of July 24, 1932.


This is how the area looks today on Google Maps with the house marked.


Various views of the 12 bedroom house.












Lachman Bros store in SF


The 1941 aerial that Doug provided the link to


By 1944 it appears that the estate was down to the 3.2 acres it is today so the subdivision must have happened between 1941 and 1944
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Tim Leahy

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Re: MacKenzie pitch and putt in the SF area
« Reply #46 on: March 21, 2011, 07:20:36 PM »
It looks a little like the area Tiger had built in his new backyard.
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I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.
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