News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Mike Sweeney

Re: A revelation..golf was never meant to make $$$$$
« Reply #100 on: October 20, 2009, 08:49:33 PM »
Mike Young,

One last thought - take a look at this website of Lost Ski Areas. If you look at the ski areas that closed, it is the Mom and Pop local areas.

http://www.nelsap.org/

592 closed in New England alone. I certainly don't ski anywhere like I used to as I rather play golf in Florida.

My guess is skiers and now golfers would rather take take less trips and play less rounds in the modern work, but they would rather play "better and fancier" courses when they do play.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: A revelation..golf was never meant to make $$$$$
« Reply #101 on: October 20, 2009, 09:06:33 PM »
Mike S.:

That's an excellent comparison.  Thanks for that.

Up here in Michigan, Boyne Resorts (the ski operators who became golf operators) bought out some of the mom & pop ski hills and closed them, to reduce the amount of low-cost competition.  Don't know if that is also the case in New England.  Fortunately I do not know of a golf parallel.

SB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A revelation..golf was never meant to make $$$$$
« Reply #102 on: October 20, 2009, 09:42:41 PM »
Maybe I'm jaded from being too close to this, but it seems to me that you can replace the word "golf" with pretty much any industry, particularly real estate, and have a similar conversation.  The overleveraged, growth model is in trouble, and the businesses that offer good value and have low debt can make it through the difficult times we are experiencing now and have experienced before.  New course construction is down, but so is new hotel construction, new restaurant construction, and new widget factory construction.  Revenue is down at some courses, but it is up at those courses that are well run and provide good value.  There will be an adjustment in the current economy, and those courses that are charging too much will adjust.  It has already happened at private clubs, where initiation fees can be (and have been) dropped quickly (which, by the way, is like an owner losing his investment).  Daily fee courses will first offer discounts and deals, and then will drop the regular rates.  Courses with too much debt will be foreclosed, and the new owners will have a lower basis and make make a reasonable (call it $$) profit.  Courses will close if they do not provide value to induce demand or if they can be sold for some more profitable use.  Maybe I'm out of line, but I don't see what all the fuss is about.  This is business 101.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A revelation..golf was never meant to make $$$$$
« Reply #103 on: October 20, 2009, 09:55:41 PM »
Mike Sweeney,
Hmm..I don't know.....I haven't seen that happen in golf yet....
Hey when are you going to FL?

S Busch,
I don't disagree with much of what you say when suggesting this is a generic problem....for so many other businesses they are not site specific as say a hotel or golf course....which are both saddled with "designed" overhead....and that is where I see some of the adjustment/adaption problems.....say you get a 60,000 sq ft clubhouse and ned to get to a 45 round of golf....you have got to shut down the clubhouse.....or you can't do it....same for 120 bunker courses, 2000 irrigation head courses and 140 acre fairway courses with landscaping at each tee and green.....so it may be that many just can't adjust....JMO
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A revelation..golf was never meant to make $$$$$
« Reply #104 on: October 20, 2009, 10:09:54 PM »
Also, it seems to me that one model not often used in modern golf development is the third party economic interest promoting or subsidizing, or actually owning a course to generate a separate market or service.  The Farm or whatever that course is that the Fert company owns in Alabama (I think), or a seed company owning one, or the corporation owning one on its grounds for customers and employees, like 3-Ms or the Wicker Basket company (I forget that name too). 
Maybe you mean something different but my understanding is that many (most?) high end golf courses built in the last decade or two were side business to real estate developments or resort hotels.  The courses were loss leaders (in that they would not be financially viable without the housing development or hotel) built to increase the value of the "core" business which is homes or hotel rooms.  Is that really all that different from IBM building a course for its employees to provide additional benefits to attract and retain those employees?

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A revelation..golf was never meant to make $$$$$
« Reply #105 on: October 20, 2009, 11:29:50 PM »
Mike,
Other than the reason you give, some of the ones that I know of in Ct. closed because they didn't have the resources to make snow. I knew Walt Schoenknecht who was one of the pioneers of that process at Mohawk Mountain over in Cornwall and he always said that snowmaking was the death knell for small ski areas. Probably pretty much in the same way that modern technologies used at high end courses makes them seem superior to courses that can't afford to run million dollar budgets.




"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A revelation..golf was never meant to make $$$$$
« Reply #106 on: October 21, 2009, 01:29:07 PM »
Dick,

I am not sure which post of mine you're referring to, but I don't consider my statements regarding the economics and business of golf to be particularly political, unless you believe that supply, demand, pricing, investment, etc. are political constructs as opposed to descriptions of observable behavior.  The ideology prompting government and perhaps some market participants to do certain things is political.  For example, forcing employers to provide health insurance to its employees or pay an extra 8% of payroll (on top of the 15.3% already being paid for SS and Medicare) and requiring healthy young people to purchase health insurance to make it cheaper for a fat, old guy like me with pre-existing conditions is certainly politically motivated.  The likely outcome, that people with less money in their pocket will most probably not spend it on a discretionary activity like golf that's already under pressure for a variety of reasons, is not political but economic and financial.

As to my golf having been subsidized, I am not sure what that has to do with anything.  I am an economic being, so I tend to take what is legally and ethically made available to me that I want.  It is not up to me to determine whether the price of a green fee covers the owner's cost and profit structure.  In most cases I am a price taker, choosing only when and where I play.  When I am comped, it is never at the cost of a revenue round to the owner.  In this regard, I see nothing untowardly or incongruent with my behavior.  And just because I don't like what government does or the taxes it charges, I obey the law and pay ALL my taxes, though not with much relish.  I am assuming that it is okay even with the socialists amongst us that I might avail myself of the few breaks given to many citizens (though I passed on "cash for clumkers" and will likely not participate in the tax credit for not so "first time buyers" of a home).

Scott Busch,

Your comments are right on the mark.  The home runs I've seen in real estate have been primarily in land investments and a few distressed properties sold by liquidators to opportunity buyers.  Real estate invesments in management intensive properties- golf being probably the most- is fraught with risk, particularly if the owners are passive investors.  As you know, I am not a big fan of the corporate golf management model, where economies of scale are sought by keeping local operations and supervision lean and the top of the pyramid reaping the benefits.  Real estate is a local business, golf more so, and I've yet to talk to a single management company employee (out of as many as 100 or more) who hasn't complained in private that they spend an inordinate amount of time on paperwork, have little decision making capabilty without a corresponding reduction of responsibility, and receive inadequate pay (probably not an uncommon charge by most employees).

Golf is unlike all other Parks & Recreation public endeavors by virtue of the cost of investment and operation.  I do not have a major issue with local governments upon the consent of the voters building low-cost facilities where the private sector can't or won't provide.  Though I don't believe that golf course owners can reasonably expect large returns (20%+) and some here suggest that golf is not meant to make money, I do find it ironic that local governments often justify building their facilities, particularly the more upscale ones, as an economic engine to fund other Parks & Recreation endeavors.  Amusing how the "not-for-profits" seek to price their products to generate excess revenues (those filthy profits that greedy businessmen are always chasing) to fund their pet projects.

NOTE TO DICK:

The following is a political statement- envy and not money (or the love of it necessarily) is the root of all evil.  Whether it is someone's money, status, access to the best golf clubs, or the love of a woman (as in the movie "Enemy at the Gate"), even the most doctrinaire of socialists is not immune to envy and the often destructive behavior it leads to.  A preoccupation with money is perhaps one of the most debilitating pathologies of society because, clearly, we need it desperately yet are historically compelled to demonize those who are most successful at generating and accumulating it.  Without production in excess of consumption we are left to mere subsitence.  Without the ability to accumulate those excesses individually- private property- we ensure that none will be created: the "pretend you're paying us and we'll pretend we're working" syndrome that plagues command economies such as Cuba's and the former Soviet bloc.  It is also ironic that many of us tend to believe that what we have is deservingly ours, but what the CEO, professional athlete, MD, or any other high earner makes is inappropriate and confiscatable (is that a word?).  End of "rant", "sophistry", "screed", "divisiness", and every other negative characterization you have used in the past to discredit my comments.

BTW, I hope your back is better.  I'll toast to your good health at the DC.  And when are we going to play again?   :) 

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A revelation..golf was never meant to make $$$$$
« Reply #107 on: October 21, 2009, 02:02:40 PM »
Lou,

I look forward to an opportunity at the DC where we can have a couple and discuss this further.

I forget, are you North or South?  That may affect the tenor of our discussion... ;) ;D

I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A revelation..golf was never meant to make $$$$$
« Reply #108 on: October 21, 2009, 02:33:29 PM »
As a former Buckeye, Captain McBride placed me on the North team on the flimsy pretense of trying to achieve balance (apparently Mr. Whitaker thought that I would be weighing down the South squad).    Though I acquiesced, I identify with the bumper sticker that loosely states "I am not a native Texan, but couldn't wait to get here".

So long as you don't get angry when drinking and we can find a place where we won't bore others, I'd be happy to have a talk.  As my last such "I'd like to know how you think" invitation turned into "What you really should believe if you are principled and fair-minded" warm scolding took but a couple of comments before I was saved by a telephone call, a minute or two and a quick shot might be all we need.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A revelation..golf was never meant to make $$$$$
« Reply #109 on: October 22, 2009, 07:29:43 AM »
As a former Buckeye, Captain McBride placed me on the North team on the flimsy pretense of trying to achieve balance (apparently Mr. Whitaker thought that I would be weighing down the South squad).    Though I acquiesced, I identify with the bumper sticker that loosely states "I am not a native Texan, but couldn't wait to get here".

So long as you don't get angry when drinking and we can find a place where we won't bore others, I'd be happy to have a talk.  As my last such "I'd like to know how you think" invitation turned into "What you really should believe if you are principled and fair-minded" warm scolding took but a couple of comments before I was saved by a telephone call, a minute or two and a quick shot might be all we need.

Well, as a former Spartan we at least share something in common .... our hatred for UofM!
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A revelation..golf was never meant to make $$$$$
« Reply #110 on: October 22, 2009, 08:59:43 AM »
Hey, watch the wolverine disses!!   >:(
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A revelation..golf was never meant to make $$$$$
« Reply #111 on: October 22, 2009, 11:01:10 AM »
Lou, you can play the poor misunderstood capitalist conservative/libertarian contrarian whatever- all you want.  It seems to be you in so many of these discussions that preamble anything you have to say on a subject with an Adam Smithian/Limbaughist lecture on how whatever issue we are talking about is somehow the leading indicator that we are a society gone to hell in a handbasket, via socialist takeovers of America, and then launch into a teaparty rant on taxes and healthcare, etc, etc;  i.e. your entry post on this thread #67 and subsequent entries.  Then when someone has the temerity to call you out and suggest that we weren't really looking for a treatise on your political views so much as discussion as on this thread about Mike's revelation that: " ..golf was never meant to make $$$$$", you wratchet up your ideological repartee.  But, that is what makes it fun for many of us!!!  ;D

Lou, I hope you get that remote island someday off the coast of nowhere, with a great golf course you can design yourself, have a few serfs around to do the work, and a completely unfettered by government intrusion, entitlement free, no taxes, or mandates, or need for healthcare, where everyday is Lou Duran day.  Until then, the rest of us will do all we can to try and make you comfortable here in the U.S of A. - if you'll only just try and meet us half way.  ::) 8) ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A revelation..golf was never meant to make $$$$$
« Reply #112 on: October 22, 2009, 01:03:45 PM »
Well, as a former Spartan we at least share something in common .... our hatred for UofM!

JC,

I am sorry to disappoint you, but I actually have considerable respect for "that school up north".  Come to think of it, were it not for Crystal Downs, the beautiful northern part of the state, and UoM, is there any other compelling reason for MI to exist?  ;)  Okay, in deference to Mike Vegis and MSU's fine turf school, I'll amend the statement above to include the Spartans.

Dick,

If I was pleading my case to the court, I would just submit your latest piece into the record as my summation.  It is not me who is asking others to make my life comfortable.  The only thing I want less than "a few serfs" is being made into one myself.  Meeting you guys half way is a non-starter when that rope you've been pulling on since at least 1932 has but a couple of inches left on my side.

It is not the "poor misunderstood capitalist conservative/libertarian contrarian whatever" like me or the socialist power class that I worry about.  These folks will find a way within any system to do comparatively well.  That's why there have been lobbyists and corrupt politicians since the beginning of time.

It is the "common man" which doesn't possess the "necessities" to better his life in a contracting, zero-sum economy who will pay the heaviest price.  I think it was the NY Times which recently ran a piece that the U.S. will have to adjust to high ongoing levels of unemployment.  Our society may have been weaned from the values of self-reliance- yes, there were actually many Americans who repaid the government the assistance they received during the Great Depression; today the more prevalent ethos appears to be "where is my check" and "give me my 'fair' share"- but the longing and need of accomplishment, of the dignity of work still lies within the vast majority of us.

Man was not made to subsist, but to thrive (see Maslow's hierarchy of needs).  Your way ensures the former at the exclusion of the latter precisely for the same large numbers of people you care about.

Oh, and if I do find a suitable place of refuge, though it probably wouldn't be an island unless it is a real big one, will you donate to a fund to pay for my one-way ticket?