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JMEvensky

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Re: Roll back the ball - saving golf
« Reply #175 on: October 24, 2009, 02:24:10 PM »
Jeff:

That's a very good observation. Those shots coming right at the camera sure are noticeably low at first and then rising. As you know Jones could really hit it (he obviously had a very high swing speed for his era and those balls back then were probably both very soft and very high spinning).

I'm sure you've been around when strong players get their swings monitored.It's amazing to watch how far they can carry a golf ball.

True Temper was very early in collecting this data.A friend over there had a lot of players' info plotted.I remember Vijay Singh's "perfect" trajectory was super-human.Singh's launch angle/spin off the club of a "normal" player would probably carry about 30 feet--with a tail wind.

TEPaul

Re: Roll back the ball - saving golf
« Reply #176 on: October 24, 2009, 02:38:54 PM »
Jeff:

Actually, I've never seen any golfers during any of this computer or testing monitoring. All I know one would probably categorize as "empirical" or "empiricism"-----eg what I remember so well as the fascinating trajectory of high swing speed players with those old balls and equipment compared to the trajectory they all pretty much have today. It's like night compared to day it's so different.

I know it all from all the tournament golf I played and officiated throughout this entire timespan going from the mid-1980s up to today.

TEPaul

Re: Roll back the ball - saving golf
« Reply #177 on: October 24, 2009, 11:20:21 PM »
"I don't have an Iron Byron, but a few years I did a test once using what I will call The Latex Lynn, a "golf machine" with a swing-speed in the mid 90 mph range.  The Latex Lynn hit 50 drives on a launch monitor, half with the ProV1x and half with the Tour Balata (I intermixed and teed the balls)  and I recorded the results, then threw out worst 5 from each group (the Latex Lynn is not quite as consistent as the Iron Byron.)"



I just noticed the above remark on a post on this thread. You know, I've basically been a supporter of the USGA and its test center we know as the multi-million dollar USGA Tech Center that seems to do most of the best regulatory conformance I&B testing in the world today but if for some odd reason they don't have or aren't using this "Latex Lynn" golf machine mentioned above, I'm afraid I might have to reconsider my support for the USGA and all that they do for golf in the area of I&B testing.  

I mean if that small segment of golfers who hit the ball really hard and far have the "Iron Bryon" machine representing them at the USGA Tech Center at 120 mph don't the rest of us need the "Latex Lynn" machine representing us at swing speeds far more realisitic to our pathetically slow swings compared to those hybrid animals on the PGA TOUR?  

And if the USGA is actually too cheap or too myopic to invest in the "Latex Lynn" machine for realistic and real world distance testing data is there any reason one should not conclude that the brilliant contributors to GOLFCLUBATLAS.com on threads like this one should not make I&B policy for the USGA and golf in the future? If not what in the world are those people in Far Hills thinking anyway?  ???
« Last Edit: October 24, 2009, 11:37:02 PM by TEPaul »

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Roll back the ball - saving golf
« Reply #178 on: October 26, 2009, 11:25:14 AM »
Bryan,

Here is the data.

Low spin ball - actual data from a modern tour ball from Golf Magazine
http://www.golf.com/golf/equipment/article/0,28136,1878631,00.html
Swing speed  80   100    120
Spin rate     2000 2200 2500
Distance from http://probablegolfinstruction.com/PGI%20Newsletter/news05-02-04.htm
                   182   247   306


I doubt anyone has data from Tour Balata that I can find so make some spin rate data up for demonstration purposes, hypothetical ball
Swing speed  80    100     120
Spin Rate     3600  3900  4200
Distance from http://probablegolfinstruction.com/PGI%20Newsletter/news05-02-04.htm
                   187    248    297

As you can see, the plots will cross.


Garland,

I was hoping that you knew of some real data.  I'm sure we can all make up hypothetical values to prove the point.  BTW the second site that you cite is using a mathematical model to calculate distance.  I'm not sure I believe such models unless they are supported by field tests.  It's a very complicated model to develop.  The first site was interesting.  The launch angles were sub-optimal;  I wonder what the spin rates would be with more optimal launch angles.  I have never been able to get spin rates down around 2,000 rpm in testing myself on launch monitors, although hittiing it low helps reduce the spin. 


Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Roll back the ball - saving golf
« Reply #179 on: October 26, 2009, 11:53:46 AM »
David,

I agree that it is possible that the lines would cross, but I'd like to see some data that prove it and also help us quantify the effect if it exists.  Sadly, it looks like no one has this data.  Perhaps the USGA could create the data if they still had, or could obtain some balata balls.  Have you ever talked to the Tech Centre about what you see as the issue, rather than just criticizing their lack of understanding of the issue?

I did conduct my own Latex Lynn test at the end of last week - let's call it the Balata Bryan.  I used a Pro V1x and a Titleist Tour Balata on a launch monitor at my local golf megastore.  Here are the results:

                                                    Pro V1x                           Tour Balata

Club Head Speed                          94                                        96

Ball Speed                                     139                                      136

Launch Angle                                12.4                                     12.3

Spin Rate                                      3359                                    3540

Carry distance                               233                                      226

The smash factor was better on the V1x, I guess the result of more on centre hit, or possibly a higher COR for the modern ball or maybe the Balata is a little dead with age.

The spin with Balata Bryan and either ball is higher than optimal.  The Balata spins higher than the V1x, but not as much higher as I expected. 

The carry distance difference is 2.3 yards per mph.  That's a little lower than the Quintavalla numbers for the modern ball.  Perhaps the mathematical model of carry distance on the launch monitor I was on is not quite right or my launch conditions were sufficiently sub-optimal to make a difference.

My results for the V1x are on the low end of the Quintavalla chart but provide one point of reference.  Why don't you continue the test with the "Long Ball" machine (isn't Robert your resident long ball hitter in SoCal?).  That would give you two points on the line for the Balata ball - not perfect, but better than our current conjecture.

In your quest to regulate, I notice that the chart you provided earlier shows a variety of slopes as possible for different ball, so, I guess you'd want to regulate based on the delta between say the Tour Balata and the Pro V1x, rather than between say the Pinnacle and the Pro V1x. 




Lou_Duran

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Re: Roll back the ball - saving golf
« Reply #180 on: October 26, 2009, 12:18:06 PM »
And if the USGA is actually too cheap or too myopic to invest in the "Latex Lynn" machine for realistic and real world distance testing data is there any reason one should not conclude that the brilliant contributors to GOLFCLUBATLAS.com on threads like this one should not make I&B policy for the USGA and golf in the future? If not what in the world are those people in Far Hills thinking anyway?  ???

I bet that Lynn Shackelford would gladly consult with the USGA, though his rate might be upwards $500/hr plus expenses.  And though "Latex Lynn" is as smooth and consitent as advertised, I suspect the average swing speed on the driver is somewhat south of that stated.

Possibly like you, I don't need a bunch of data and extrapolated statistics to correct my lying eyes.  There are bunkers being carried with 3-metalwoods today that I could barely reach with a solid persimon Citation driver on a Titleist Professional and some roll.  When the big boys are feathering a 3 metal to reach #10 at Riviera, whatever the causes of such distance, if maintaining the integrity of the game through time is important, perhaps something shold be done.  There is certainly precedence in other sports to control the equipment at different levels of competition.  For the vast majority of us it is not an issue relative to how we play the game, so it does not make a lot of sense to me to apply the cure to the unafflicted.       

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Roll back the ball - saving golf
« Reply #181 on: October 26, 2009, 01:18:35 PM »
Bryan,

Here is the data.

Low spin ball - actual data from a modern tour ball from Golf Magazine
http://www.golf.com/golf/equipment/article/0,28136,1878631,00.html
Swing speed  80   100    120
Spin rate     2000 2200 2500
Distance from http://probablegolfinstruction.com/PGI%20Newsletter/news05-02-04.htm
                   182   247   306


I doubt anyone has data from Tour Balata that I can find so make some spin rate data up for demonstration purposes, hypothetical ball
Swing speed  80    100     120
Spin Rate     3600  3900  4200
Distance from http://probablegolfinstruction.com/PGI%20Newsletter/news05-02-04.htm
                   187    248    297

As you can see, the plots will cross.


Garland,

I was hoping that you knew of some real data.  I'm sure we can all make up hypothetical values to prove the point.  BTW the second site that you cite is using a mathematical model to calculate distance.  I'm not sure I believe such models unless they are supported by field tests.  It's a very complicated model to develop.  The first site was interesting.  The launch angles were sub-optimal;  I wonder what the spin rates would be with more optimal launch angles.  I have never been able to get spin rates down around 2,000 rpm in testing myself on launch monitors, although hittiing it low helps reduce the spin. 



Bryan,

Are you saying the when the second reference says "My model agrees very well with experimental results" that you don't believe the author?
So what's not real about the data? The only thing missing is knowledge of real numbers for a balata ball. Given the numbers, it is clear that it is no problem to get the lines to cross.

As I indicated earlier, Tom Wishon and others have been making the qualitative statements that indicated the lines cross. I have little doubt that they developed that qualitative assessment from quantitative information.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

DMoriarty

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Re: Roll back the ball - saving golf
« Reply #182 on: October 26, 2009, 02:13:53 PM »
Bryan,  thanks for your response.   I suspect we are fairly close to on the same page on this issue. 

I don't have any more balatas to continue the experiments, at least not any that haven't been hit to death.   As I said I did this test a number of years ago.   

Why did you focus on carry distance?    How were the total distance numbers?  If I recall correctly the Pro V1x had a higher percentage of total distance as carry, as compared to the Balata.  At least with the Latex Lynn.   

How big a sample did you use?   Surely you are not so consistent that one hit with each sufficed?   If you used a large enough sample then I am surprised that your swing speed differed between the two balls.      I believe the Latex Lynn was set for a few mph less than yours (about 92 or 93 for both balls if I recall correctly (I don't have the complete data in front of me.)  So that might explain a bit of the difference in result.  My Balatas were a few years fresher as well.

2.3 yards per MPH is a LOT lower than the numbers in the USGA study.   How did you come up with this number?  Not sure why you conclude that perhaps your launch monitor wasn't working quite right regarding this number?

Did you test the Pro V1 as well Pro V1x?

___________________________________

As to showing how the lines actually cross, it would be terrific to have a wider range of data from a wider range of balls, and the USGA could easily produce such data whether or not they had Balatas. (Surely they have old statistics from the balata.)  They also have their balls they requested from the manufacturers and they also have a wide range of balls produced today.

But one can see how different balls have different slopes even from the narrow range of state of the art tour balls tested in their own study!    Take a look at Figure 3 in the Quintavalla Study, and focus on Ball A and Ball C.   One can see that at 90 mph Ball C flies farther than Ball A but what appears to be around 4 or 5 yards.   But at 125 Miles Per hour, Ball A flies farther than Ball C by what appears to be about 8 or 9 yards.   Thus, even over the 90+ mph swing speeds tested, there is a significant difference in distance produced between these two balls as swing speed increases.    The slopes seem to cross somewhere a bit above 100 mph swing speed.  All else being equal, those below that point would benefit distance wise from Ball C compared to Ball A, and all those above this point would benefit distancewise from Ball A compared to Ball C.   The difference is quite pronounced by the time we get up to 125, and given that Ball C's slope appears to be dropping off relatively substantially by this point it is probably that the gap will be even  greater as swing speeds increase further.

I've tried to isolate these two lines in Photoshop to make the point more evident . . .



Conversely if we continue the cap backward with slower swingspeeds, one can see that the gap distance gap of Ball C over Ball A will increase as swing speed slows.  (This based on the conclusion of the study that the slope will flatten as swing speed increases. 

___________________________________________

I have not spoken with the USGA Tech guys to tell them where their study falls short.  I would be shocked if the USGA science guys aren't well aware of the limits of their study.   If they aren't then the USGA is hiring fifth rate science guys who wouldn't understand an explanation anyway.  Surely this is more an indication of the policy approach at the USGA rather than a misunderstanding in the lab.   The USGA had the science guys narrowly design a study to get the result the USGA wanted, and then the USGA spun it a manner that allowed them to tell us what the USGA wants us to hear.    Frankly, all those reports read like lame apologies and excuses to me; as if the USGA has been putting out fires through P.R., and trying to quell justified criticism about how they have dropped the ball (literally and figuratively) when it comes to keeping this technology in check. 

If not, then the USGA and their science guys are blind if they truly believe that this technology has not benefited big hitters more than short hitters, and a phone call from me will not change that.  I am neither science guy nor miracle worker and cannot make the blind see.  I did not even stay at a Holiday Inn last night.
____________________________________

As for how I would come up with a standard, as I said I am not a science guy so I cannot say for certain.   I think I would base it generally on past ratios of long and short in actual play, however.   I would surely not use balls like the Pinnacle that, whatever their length, were considered too inferior in other respects for top long hitters to use.  They wouldn't provide any indication of the past ratio between long and short, because longer, better players refused to use them!  (Arguably, a case could be made for using these types of balls on the low (slow swing) end of the scale because recreational golfers with slow swing speeds were using these balls.   However, I suspect that there wasn't much distance benefit from these balls to slower swingers anyway.   Or at least least the distance benefit was greatly exaggerated.)
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Roll back the ball - saving golf
« Reply #183 on: October 27, 2009, 02:49:31 AM »
Bryan,

Here is the data.

Low spin ball - actual data from a modern tour ball from Golf Magazine
http://www.golf.com/golf/equipment/article/0,28136,1878631,00.html
Swing speed  80   100    120
Spin rate     2000 2200 2500
Distance from http://probablegolfinstruction.com/PGI%20Newsletter/news05-02-04.htm
                   182   247   306


I doubt anyone has data from Tour Balata that I can find so make some spin rate data up for demonstration purposes, hypothetical ball
Swing speed  80    100     120
Spin Rate     3600  3900  4200
Distance from http://probablegolfinstruction.com/PGI%20Newsletter/news05-02-04.htm
                   187    248    297

As you can see, the plots will cross.


Garland,

I was hoping that you knew of some real data.  I'm sure we can all make up hypothetical values to prove the point.  BTW the second site that you cite is using a mathematical model to calculate distance.  I'm not sure I believe such models unless they are supported by field tests.  It's a very complicated model to develop.  The first site was interesting.  The launch angles were sub-optimal;  I wonder what the spin rates would be with more optimal launch angles.  I have never been able to get spin rates down around 2,000 rpm in testing myself on launch monitors, although hittiing it low helps reduce the spin. 



Bryan,

Are you saying the when the second reference says "My model agrees very well with experimental results" that you don't believe the author?  I missed that reference to experimental data.  Point taken. 
So what's not real about the data? The only thing missing is knowledge of real numbers for a balata ball.   Uh, yeah!  Isn't that the critical piece of information that we're looking for.  The point I'm trying to get at is that it's all fine and good to whinge that the ball needs to be rolled back.  It's another to be specific about what it should be rolled back to.  Saying roll it back by 10 or 15% just doesn't cut it from a regulatory or policing point of view.  So, having the old data is critical if you're trying to achieve some roll back to some specific point and technology.  Given the numbers, it is clear that it is no problem to get the lines to cross.

As I indicated earlier, Tom Wishon and others have been making the qualitative statements that indicated the lines cross. I have little doubt that they developed that qualitative assessment from quantitative information.  Perhaps so, but if so, where is the quantitative data.  If it exists, why does nobody seem to have published it in any form that we can find. 


Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Roll back the ball - saving golf
« Reply #184 on: October 27, 2009, 03:25:48 AM »
Bryan,  thanks for your response.   I suspect we are fairly close to on the same page on this issue.  No, we're probably not that far off.  The point I'm trying to get at is that it's all fine and good to whinge that the ball needs to be rolled back.  It's another to be specific about what it should be rolled back to.  Saying roll it back by 10 or 15% just doesn't cut it from a regulatory or policing point of view.  I know that you won't be happy, nor would I if the USGA were to roll back the ball and we didn't understand and agree with the target and the methodology.  I'm just trying to get to a better definition of where you'd like those to be.

I don't have any more balatas to continue the experiments, at least not any that haven't been hit to death.   As I said I did this test a number of years ago.   Too bad.  I don't have any handy high swing speed players that I can take to the local launch monitor to test out my one balata.  It's still in pretty good shape though.

Why did you focus on carry distance?    How were the total distance numbers?  If I recall correctly the Pro V1x had a higher percentage of total distance as carry, as compared to the Balata.  At least with the Latex Lynn.    I was doing this on free time on the monitor, ostensibly trying out a new driver.  It was tough enough to get the numbers I did.  I'm not a big fan of total distance numbers.  They depend too much on unmeasurable parameters - the decayed spin rate on landing. the incidence angle and the firmness of the turf, for instance.

How big a sample did you use?   Surely you are not so consistent that one hit with each sufficed?   If you used a large enough sample then I am surprised that your swing speed differed between the two balls.      I believe the Latex Lynn was set for a few mph less than yours (about 92 or 93 for both balls if I recall correctly (I don't have the complete data in front of me.)  So that might explain a bit of the difference in result.  My Balatas were a few years fresher as well.  I hit about ten with each and eliminated the shots that were obvious mishits.  Apparently Balata Bryan is not as consistent as Latex Lynn.  We need to try the Dubious David machine to see how consistent he is  ;D 

2.3 yards per MPH is a LOT lower than the numbers in the USGA study.   How did you come up with this number?  Not sure why you conclude that perhaps your launch monitor   wasn't working quite right regarding this number?The ball speeds were 3 mph different and the carry distance was 7 yards different.  I guess most numbers are based on swing speed differences, but that would have produced nonsensical results here and perhaps is inappropriate for comparisons between different balls with different COR's.

Did you test the Pro V1 as well Pro V1x?  No, just the V1x.  See comments above about free monitor time.

___________________________________

As to showing how the lines actually cross, it would be terrific to have a wider range of data from a wider range of balls, and the USGA could easily produce such data whether or not they had Balatas. (Surely they have old statistics from the balata.   Beats me.  Why don't you ask them?  do you really think they are that secretive that they wouldn't tell you?)   They also have their balls they requested from the manufacturers and they also have a wide range of balls produced today.  I guess I'm still trying to focus on what you want the roll back target to be.  Most seem to want to roll back to the perceived performance of Tour Balata's (perhaps with Persimmon driver technology) for high swing speeds.  You seem to want to improve the slow swing speeds as well, so perhaps you have Pinnacle level performance in mind for slower swingers.  To have an intelligent discussion about targets, it would be good to have base level data for the balls in question.

But one can see how different balls have different slopes even from the narrow range of state of the art tour balls tested in their own study!    Take a look at Figure 3 in the Quintavalla Study, and focus on Ball A and Ball C.   One can see that at 90 mph Ball C flies farther than Ball A but what appears to be around 4 or 5 yards.   But at 125 Miles Per hour, Ball A flies farther than Ball C by what appears to be about 8 or 9 yards.   Thus, even over the 90+ mph swing speeds tested, there is a significant difference in distance produced between these two balls as swing speed increases.    The slopes seem to cross somewhere a bit above 100 mph swing speed.  All else being equal, those below that point would benefit distance wise from Ball C compared to Ball A, and all those above this point would benefit distancewise from Ball A compared to Ball C.   The difference is quite pronounced by the time we get up to 125, and given that Ball C's slope appears to be dropping off relatively substantially by this point it is probably that the gap will be even  greater as swing speeds increase further.

I've tried to isolate these two lines in Photoshop to make the point more evident . . .



Conversely if we continue the cap backward with slower swingspeeds, one can see that the gap distance gap of Ball C over Ball A will increase as swing speed slows.  (This based on the conclusion of the study that the slope will flatten as swing speed increases. 

___________________________________________

I have not spoken with the USGA Tech guys to tell them where their study falls short.  I was thinking of a less adversarial; approach.  You could ask them if they've done similar testing on balata balls and if so, what does it look like.  As you say, I expect they probably have thought of it.  I would be shocked if the USGA science guys aren't well aware of the limits of their study.   If they aren't then the USGA is hiring fifth rate science guys who wouldn't understand an explanation anyway.  Surely this is more an indication of the policy approach at the USGA rather than a misunderstanding in the lab.   The USGA had the science guys narrowly design a study to get the result the USGA wanted, and then the USGA spun it a manner that allowed them to tell us what the USGA wants us to hear.    Frankly, all those reports read like lame apologies and excuses to me; as if the USGA has been putting out fires through P.R., and trying to quell justified criticism about how they have dropped the ball (literally and figuratively) when it comes to keeping this technology in check.  I haven't had any experience dealing with the USGA, so I don't have as jaded and negative a view as you do.  I have volunteered with our provincial golf association and they seem like reasonable people to me.  Perhaps if you took a reasonable approach you could get more information out of the USGA and make policy suggestions without getting into an adversarial position.  Seems to me that they cared enough to debunk one urban myth - that the modern ball has a turbo option at some high swing speed point.  Perhaps, they'd be interested in debunking or proving your point of crossing lines.  Continued complaining doesn't seem to be accomplishing much.

If not, then the USGA and their science guys are blind if they truly believe that this technology has not benefited big hitters more than short hitters, and a phone call from me will not change that.  I am neither science guy nor miracle worker and cannot make the blind see.  I did not even stay at a Holiday Inn last night.
____________________________________

As for how I would come up with a standard, as I said I am not a science guy so I cannot say for certain.   I think I would base it generally on past ratios of long and short in actual play, however.  Sounds reasonable to me.  I am a science guy, and I have to say though that regulating, engineering conforming balls, testing and policing is going to be really complex.  Sounds simple in principle but is likely very difficult in practise.   I would surely not use balls like the Pinnacle that, whatever their length, were considered too inferior in other respects for top long hitters to use.  They wouldn't provide any indication of the past ratio between long and short, because longer, better players refused to use them!  (Arguably, a case could be made for using these types of balls on the low (slow swing) end of the scale because recreational golfers with slow swing speeds were using these balls.   However, I suspect that there wasn't much distance benefit from these balls to slower swingers anyway.  I'm old enough to remember when the Pinnacle was introduced, and I used it, and it was demonstrably and unexaggeratedly longer.   Or at least least the distance benefit was greatly exaggerated.)