Nantucket Golf Club

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Pat
What is your opinion of anaylsing photos like the old 12th GCGC? You say the current 12th was totally out of context with the rest of the course, wasn't the old 12th remodeled because of its unnusaul character which was unlike anything on the course or anywhere in golf for that matter? You seemed to have studied old photos of that hole very carefully and ultimately came to the conslusion that is was worth trying to restore. Did you conclude that hole should be restored or am I mistaken? What is your opinion of the old 12th?

And how does your opposition to photographic analysis jive with that process? Aren't you being a hypocritic?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

The old 12th was modified because of the difficulty in maintaining it.  Using photographic evidence to restore the physical nature of a hole is light years removed from assessing the playability of a hole.  There is nothing hypocritical about that position

What does Charles Blair MacDonald think about evaluating holes and courses ?  Does he agree with me, or with you and Tom Paul ?

As an expert researcher, could you quote his written thoughts on that process as evidenced on page 295 of "Scotland's Gift"
or does fear of embarrassment prevent you from typing his words ?

[TEPaul]

Tom MacW:

You think there's some contradiction between Pat Mucci's dictate that "You have to play to assay" and what he's been saying about the use of photographs, don't you? And because of that you think he really shouldn't be using photographs to analyze architecture when he says we can't or shouldn't, not even photos of the original #12 GCGC that's been gone for decades.

There're some things that he hasn't told you. He's not backing off his "You have to play to assay" dictate for you, me, or anybody, but when it comes to this #12 hole, the only real evidence of which resides in historic photos and aerials, Pat has his own special technique!

He puts all the photos on the floor, assumes a cross-legged meditative positions, says 39 NA-NA-NA-Nas and is actually able to play golf in those historic photos and aerials and hit all kinds of shots in varying wind conditions!

Once done, he's fully prepared to enter any architectural, committee or Board meeting and comprehensively ASSAY!

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Pat
I am unclear, did you ever play the old 12th?

You seemed to have studied old photos of that hole very carefully and ultimately came to the conslusion that is was worth trying to restore. Did you conclude that hole should be restored or am I mistaken? What is your opinion of the old 12th?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood and Tom Paul,

What does Charles Blair MacDonald say about evaluating golf holes and courses, it's right on page 295.

Tom MacWood,

Tom Paul doesn't have "Scotland's Gift" handy, so stop ducking the issue and tell him what Charles Blair MacDonald's opinion is.

Go ahead, you can type it on your response, and you don't have to try to deflect the question, just answer it by quoting page 295.

I know this is embarrassing for you, but take a deep breath, and just type his written opinion on the subject, thanks.

[TEPaul]

C.B. MacDonald was a most imaginative and brilliant architect, in my opinion, and you might think it totally heretical to say, although I don't, but he had some very strong opinions on all kinds of things like how to win the US Amateur and floating golf balls and like yours those were his opinons, but they might be wrong!

I really don't know what's on p. 295 and I really don't care, although I certainly will read it. You can hide behind whatever's on p. 295 and what MacDonald might have thought about photographry 75 years ago but whatever he thought is not going to embarass me and I doubt it's going to embarass Tom MacWood either.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Ya, I'd try to change the subject too. You wouldn't be avoiding the questions would you Pat? Please clear up this apparent contradiction - I don't want come away from this topic thinking you are being hypocritical.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

I'm not trying to change the subject, and I already answered your question, you just can't face having to answer mine.

Photographs are insufficient in evaluating a golf course, I said so, Tom Doak said so, and Charles Blair MacDonald said so.

You've been the one avoiding the answering of this question for some time.

You're just too embarrassed to answer it, to admit, that
I agree with Charles Blair MacDonald, and the great, elite
Tom MacWood disagrees with him.

That's okay, I understand !  You're wrong on this issue, and
Charles Blair MacDonald told you so !

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Pat
You must have missed my post of 4/25 - you didn't answer that question either:

Pat
Who commented on Boca Rio based on aerials and what did they say that was off the mark?

There are no absolute rules regarding passing judgement or making informed statements - there is no formula. I do not object to anyone analyzing a photograph. I don't think it is wise to render an informed judgement of an entire golf course through photographs - but that happens rarely. But commenting on a photograph or analyzing a photograph is not rendering a judgement on an entire golf course. I've enjoyed when Pat has commented and analyzed what he found appealing or unappealing in photos (even when he had never played the hole) and if its good enough for Pat, it should be good enough for the rest of us.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

You left out an important part from your quote,
my response.

But that doesn't surprise me.

Could you tell me what Charles Blair MacDonald said about evaluating a hole or golf course, it's right there on page 295.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Pat
Your response wouldn't be part of MY quote. I can tell you this much you did not answer my question. Just as you didn't answer my questions regarding GCGC.

I take it the reason you didn't answer the Boca Rio question is because you couldn't. And the reason you didn't answer my questions regarding your opinion of the old 12th at GCGC and your analysis of photos is because you couldn't without contradicting yourself and CB Macdonald.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

I did answer your questions on Garden City, you just didn't like my answer.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Pat
Did you answer these questions?

Did you ever play the old 12th?

You seemed to have studied old photos of that hole very carefully and ultimately came to the conslusion that is was worth trying to restore. Did you conclude that hole should be restored or am I mistaken? What is your opinion of the old 12th?

Who commented on Boca Rio based on aerials and what did they say that was off the mark?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

No

Yes

Reread the thread

Now answer my questions