[Ronald Montesano]

I have attached a hole-by-hole of Old MacDonald, por si acaso you haven't seen it.  It resolves the Littlestone question of a few threads ago.

[Thomas Patterson]

Very cool, thank you for posting this!  Makes me very excited to get out and play a round at Old Mac.

[Bill_McBride]

Interesting that two of the holes (Leven and Hog's Back) are inspired by holes at Lundin Links.  Those early holes are really great strategic holes.

Somehow I had the impression at Littlestone that Mackenzie laid out the hole that Macdonald replicated at the Lido.  Is the timing wrong for this?

[Jerry Kluger]

I looked at the descriptions and nearly all of holes have a connection to a hole at NGLA which is a course that probably less than 1% of those playing Old MacDonald have ever seen or played - how do you think the other 99% will react to that fact? 

[Jim Colton]

I looked at the descriptions and nearly all of holes have a connection to a hole at NGLA which is a course that probably less than 1% of those playing Old MacDonald have ever seen or played - how do you think the other 99% will react to that fact? 

Jerry,

  Isn't that the point?  Mr. Keiser wanted to expose the other 99% to CB Mac's design principles.

[Jerry Kluger]

Jim: I am just thinking that if I am playing Old MacDonald and the hole is patterned after a hole at NGLA then my first question is how do they compare and my second question is which one do I like more - problem is I have never seen the original so how can I make the comparison? 

[Tom_Doak]

If you can't get on to play National, you will probably just assume that Old Macdonald is better!    And it is, for people who can't get on National, anyway.

[Adrian_Stiff]

TomD - I get the impression you are more than excited about OldMac.... I know its hard to say what is your favourite baby, but could you say if you think it might make your top two?

[Jim Colton]

Jim: I am just thinking that if I am playing Old MacDonald and the hole is patterned after a hole at NGLA then my first question is how do they compare and my second question is which one do I like more - problem is I have never seen the original so how can I make the comparison? 

Jerry, I may never play NGLA or Chicago Golf (even though it's less than 5 min from my house).  In that case, I would just enjoy Old Mac for what it is: (I'm guessing) big, bold and fun!  Just reading Tom's hole-by-hole description this morning has sparked an interest to learn more about those precedent courses.  If it does that for me and the other Joe Golfer's AND is a wonderful course to boot, then I'm sure Mr. Keiser would view it as a huge success.  I think it will be.

[Bill_McBride]

Tom Doak, I haven't been out to Bandon since Old Mac was started but eager to do so.

A couple of questions:  

Is the Leven hole reversed from the NGLA example #17, i.e. is the best approach from the right rather than the left?  Is there as daunting a carry as the one at NGLA?

Did you have to move much dirt to create these holes based on the cited concepts, or were you able to find most of them there in their natural state?

If you had to move much dirt, where?  On which holes?

Thanks!

[Tom_Doak]

Adrian:

Urbina is the one who thinks Old Macdonald is the best thing since sliced bread ... of course, he is more invested in it, because he has never been to Cape Kidnappers or Barnbougle.  I can just sit back and laugh that if people think Old Macdonald is better than those, we must have done pretty well.

Bill M:

I would never compare the 13th at Old Macdonald to the 17th at National, which sits on maybe the prettiest site for any golf hole anywhere.  We looked closely at the 16th hole at Lundin Links (the original Leven hole) and tried to do something in that vein.  Our hole is like that one, where there is a hill (natural) at the front left of the green, and the entire green cascades away from front left to back right, so if you're not going to drive the green you'd generally rather be out to the right with your tee shot.  There is nothing imposing to carry from the tee, but there are bunkers to avoid.

The holes where we moved significant amounts of earth are #3 and #7 (to soften the big dune features which are the backbone of the hole), #6 fairway (which was too flat), #15 fairway (which was too undulating!), #16 (to create the Alps ridge) and #17 (to create the short-cut fairway which was very low ground).  Those are the holes on the perimeter of the site -- on the holes in the middle, we barely did anything besides bunkers and greens.  It sounds like a lot, but I would guess it was on the order of 150,000 to 200,000 cubic yards all together.  Mr. Urbina may correct me, but we are both guessing because we were just renting the equipment on time and materials, and nobody was counting the earthmoving quantities.

[Bill_McBride]

Adrian:

Urbina is the one who thinks Old Macdonald is the best thing since sliced bread ... of course, he is more invested in it, because he has never been to Cape Kidnappers or Barnbougle.  I can just sit back and laugh that if people think Old Macdonald is better than those, we must have done pretty well.

Bill M:

I would never compare the 13th at Old Macdonald to the 17th at National, which sits on maybe the prettiest site for any golf hole anywhere.  We looked closely at the 16th hole at Lundin Links (the original Leven hole) and tried to do something in that vein.  Our hole is like that one, where there is a hill (natural) at the front left of the green, and the entire green cascades away from front left to back right, so if you're not going to drive the green you'd generally rather be out to the right with your tee shot.  There is nothing imposing to carry from the tee, but there are bunkers to avoid.

The holes where we moved significant amounts of earth are #3 and #7 (to soften the big dune features which are the backbone of the hole), #6 fairway (which was too flat), #15 fairway (which was too undulating!), #16 (to create the Alps ridge) and #17 (to create the short-cut fairway which was very low ground).  Those are the holes on the perimeter of the site -- on the holes in the middle, we barely did anything besides bunkers and greens.  It sounds like a lot, but I would guess it was on the order of 150,000 to 200,000 cubic yards all together.  Mr. Urbina may correct me, but we are both guessing because we were just renting the equipment on time and materials, and nobody was counting the earthmoving quantities.

Thanks for the clarification.  You're right about the beauty at NGLA, that's got to be the most awe-inspiring view east of Cypress Point!

So the 17th at Old Mac doesn't use the strategy of the Leven at NGLA?  I saw the .pdf that says the NGLA hole is a precedent.  At NGLA the best play is as far as you can hit the drive well left.  If you carry the gunch over there, you have a simple pitch down the length of the green.  At Lundin you just bash it down a wide open fairway and there's the green off to the left.  The challenge of the tee shot makes the NGLA a great hole where the Lundin hole is merely good and fun to boot.

So there's no carry challenge off the tee at Old Mac?  That would be the difference I guess.

[Tom_Doak]

Bill:

There is a tiny burn or drainage ditch at Lundin Links which runs across the hole at 130-160 yards off the tee.  That isn't a notable driving hazard anymore, but I'm sure that in 1872 when Macdonald saw it, it was very much a strategic feature of the hole.  You had to play to the right off the tee to hold the green, and you had to make the longer carry over the burn in order to get to the right.

Old Macdonald doesn't have a burn, and I wasn't going to build one.  We did put in a bunker to the right-center that defends the optimum line out to the right, but most people won't even look over that way ... they will just hit straight for the green, and leave themselves with an awkward second shot to a green that's falling away.

P.S.  Both of the holes Macdonald copied from Leven had to be from his memories in the old, old days.  The course didn't generate much discussion by 1905, and better equipment had made both holes less noteworthy.  The hog's back on today's 17th at Lundin Links could easily be overlooked, because the peak of it is only 180-200 yards off the tee ... if I hadn't noticed the bit of fairway down the bank to the right, I would have missed it myself.

[Bill_McBride]

The hog's back on today's 17th at Lundin Links could easily be overlooked, because the peak of it is only 180-200 yards off the tee ... if I hadn't noticed the bit of fairway down the bank to the right, I would have missed it myself.

I also saw that little bit of green grass down there (after hitting my drive over the left corner of the knob up on top), but only because my brother hit his tee shot maybe 30^o  off line out to the right and I went over to help him find it!  That really is a relic, although I'll bet the ladies try to hit that little spot!

Those two holes, plus the brutish 18th, make for a great finish at Lundin.

[Wyatt Halliday]

Jim: I am just thinking that if I am playing Old MacDonald and the hole is patterned after a hole at NGLA then my first question is how do they compare and my second question is which one do I like more - problem is I have never seen the original so how can I make the comparison? 

Jerry,

This makes think of 1911, and wonder if first timers at NGLA thought the same thing without having played Prestwick, St. Andrews, Lundin, etc.

Interesting.

[Anthony Gray]

  Ronald,

 Thanks for the thread. Can't wait to play Bill McBride at Old Mac.

  Anthony

[Ben Sims]

Tom,

Just now reading the hole-by-hole, I remembered something.  One of the more demure yet fun holes at Ballyneal was--for me--the 14th.  Reading your description of #7 "Ocean" at Old Mac, I'm reminded of that hole.  Is the resemblance intentional?

Can't wait to get back out there.

[Tom_Doak]

Ben:

I would never have thought of the 14th at Ballyneal while standing on the Ocean hole at Old Macdonald.

Didn't you play "Ocean" last year?  (It is the second hole of the ten-hole loop.)  Do you really think it resembles the hole at Ballyneal?

[Kyle Harris]

I'm curious how the Maiden hole at OM compares in design to the Maiden at Mountain Lake.

[Ben Sims]

Ben:

I would never have thought of the 14th at Ballyneal while standing on the Ocean hole at Old Macdonald.

Didn't you play "Ocean" last year?  (It is the second hole of the ten-hole loop.)  Do you really think it resembles the hole at Ballyneal?

Tom,

Yes I did play "Ocean" this past spring.  But I didn't think of the 14th at Ballyneal while I was at Old Mac.  It was vice versa of that.  It wasn't until I read the PDF file that I remembered picturing that connection on the third or fourth time I played the 14th at Ballyneal in June.

My scorecards are still packed away, but I think they play close in yardage.  I know for a fact I played both holes with a fairway metal off the tee and a mid iron approach.  They were both into the prevailing wind on my visit.  They're both dogleg left holes.  They both--depending on drive positioning at Ballyneal--play uphill on the approach.  They both have very little tolerance for any approach left short or right.  The biggest difference I see in the holes is the centerline bunker at Ballyneal, and the drop off ito the Pacific at Old Mac.  But as far as how the hole fits the existing landforms, I feel like they're pretty close.  This is the tagline:  Mid length dogleg left par four demands positioning off the tee for good angle into elevated green complex with steep front. 

All of my other insanely crazy hole comparisons aside, this one makes sense to me.  They are not exact copies obviously.  But, I hope I'm not way off here.

[Bill_McBride]

I'm curious how the Maiden hole at OM compares in design to the Maiden at Mountain Lake.

Kyle, which hole is The Maiden at Mountain Lake?

[Kyle Harris]

I'm curious how the Maiden hole at OM compares in design to the Maiden at Mountain Lake.

Kyle, which hole is The Maiden at Mountain Lake?

18

[Jim Colton]

Tom,

Just now reading the hole-by-hole, I remembered something.  One of the more demure yet fun holes at Ballyneal was--for me--the 14th.  Reading your description of #7 "Ocean" at Old Mac, I'm reminded of that hole.  Is the resemblance intentional?

Can't wait to get back out there.

Tom,

  Don't mind Ben.  He's still thinking about his answer to #6 on 'Mike D's Kingsley Quiz.'

6. The bunkers at the 12th Hole at Kingsley are inspired by which of the following designs:
A.   Oakmont Country Club, 3rd Hole
B.   Bethpage Black, 4th Hole
C.   Pine Valley, 10th Hole
D.   All of the Above

[Brad Fleischer]

Ben,

Here we go again you think you would learn by now.

Jim,

Didn't mike put E) 5th hole at lahinch. 

[Bryan Izatt]

Bill,

Not sure about your recollection of the Leven hole at Lundin; that you can "just bash it down a wide open fairway and there's the green off to the left".  As I recall it the burn that has to be carried also angled up along the right side of the fairway, playing with your mind if you leaked the drive a little right.  I guess Tom has put a bunker in that area to reflect the hazard, although a bunker is less punitive than the burn.  But, that's inspired by as opposed to copied from.




The patch of fairway to the right of the hog's back on 17 is pretty clear from the aerial; maybe less so on the ground although I was down there once.  As I recall the second shot was pretty short, although Tom describes the Old Mac hole as having a second shot down a long valley.  I guess the inspiration on this hole was the hog's back feature, not the length of the hole with modern technology.

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