Is Texas HOT, or not?

[texsport]

For some strange reason, I thought the function of a golf course was to test golfers. Some on this post seem to think a major course function is to amuse players with it's scenic diversity.

If the best player in the world wins on a course, it seems to me that the course is proven. First, because the best player felt it was a worthy enough test to play there and second, because the best ball striker and putter emerged victorious-the ultimate goal of any golf tournament. Ultimately, in competitive golf, nothing else matters except in locker room discussions.

Texsport

[Matt_Ward]

Lou:

I don't need "eye candy" to be influenced on what constitutes on my mind a golf experience of the highest order. I don't get sidetracked with all the puffery -- I review the core and call it as I see it.

Look, let's just face some facts I know Texans don't want to hear. For a number of years the state had squat when it came to golf open to the masses. Yes, there were some isolated pockets of well done private courses (i.e. Brook Hollow, Austin CC, to name just two) but for the most part you had plenty of low level junk masquerading as "quality" golf.

Guys, understand this -- I cut my teeth on public slop in Northern New Jersey and I know such courses because I played them for quite a few years. I didn't begin my golf experiences sitting on dad's lap and looking over the lush confines of Baltusrol / National / etc, etc.

I'm happy to see Texas is making headway but my central point was the state is not a golf destination on the first page of places to play in the USA -- right now. Clearly, with the land and the amount of people who live there the demand for better courses will hopefully grow as it appears to be in the Dallas, Houston, San Antonio and Austin areas. Oh, by the way, I have mentioned how fantastic the opportunities are in the Hill Country -- I guess a few forgot to see this and just thought much of what I said was pure anti-Texas drivel. Let's just see the quality courses first -- the rest will follow after that.

Steve:

The greatness of TOC goes beyond the fact of "golf history." It is the strategic greatness of the course that makes TOC so special even if no events were ever played there. I would urge you to play it and see for yourself if you haven't already, but please help me stop laughing if you are truly serious in trying to link TOC as being just another "flat" course.

Steve -- many thanks for the heads-up on River Ridge -- if I get to town who knows maybe we can hook up for a game there? Adios partner ...

[Mike_Cirba]

The funny thing about The Old Course is that it's probably the most undulating "flat" course in the world.  Rises and falls, swales and mounds predominate across the entire links, to the point some have complained that it's unfair, given the resultant blindness from many areas.  

It has more rolls per square acre than Sara Lee.  

[Steve Lang]

Matt,  Yes I've played TOC, back in 1996, albeit only once, on a fairly mild fall monday, 12-15 mph winds coming onshore.. loved it, shot 77, with staying left and ground game strategy..  Looking at topo map in museum and studying course on foot on Sunday got me more into GCA stuff..

I carried rented set of clubs, had many pleasures, almost birdying 17 after going over the garage/hotel, but most memorable was first slice of the day occurring on 18, arguably perhaps the widest fairway in the world and going OB by 6 inches under the fence... hitting second ball safely left, making 8 iron approach to 4 feet and canning putt to rousing applause of crowd along the back of green fence (who must have thought it a birdie, obviously they didn't see my tee shot)

Sure, real no arguements on TOC from me (I have read where many don't like it however, calling it boring), but you have to admit it's so "flat visioned" that you have to aim at far-away hillsides and towers etc.. as features more often than at ground features, which is why local knowledge means so much..  If i had to play it each day, I'd certainly take more risky routes to the objectives there,,, so

enjoy

p.s.  Check out 7500 yd Redstone GC, new home of SHO this weekend (Hardy Jacobson design getting some raves, but at $145/165 per week/weekend round.. is this what we want to see?

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

The great thing about the Texas golf market is that it is beginning to offer the kind of "differentiation" of styles and price points by virtue that golf development is still flourishing when compared to other states.

Clearly, the CCFAD situation is alive and well in particular "hot spot" locales but I often think of my time at Painted Dunes Desrt GC in El Paso. This Ken Dye design course is nicely done and has been the site of PGA Tour qualifiers. For the $$ it's hard to beat and anyone treking across the state on I-10 should stop by if you can.

Appreciate the heads-up on Redstone -- a few fellow golf writers have sent me info and I'll be watching closely this weekend.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

I am glad to see you guys could keep this going while I was out of town for 5 days LOL.

[Mike_Cirba]

John Bernhardt;

Did you really think an argument between Texans and NYC/Philly guys would be over in 5 days??!

How long was the Hundred Years War, again?  

[John_D._Bernhardt]

I am sorry Mike you are correct. I week is nothing when a blood war is on. lol However, I must say screw you guys I am going home for SouthPark is on now. lol

[Scott_Burroughs]

Ever been to the Alamo?  Yankees went all the way down there and helped fight for Texas.    

[mike_beene]

Yes,that Alamo deal came out real well.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Scott when did Kentucky and Tenn become Yankee states. lol

[Scott_Burroughs]

What I mean is, the listing in the Alamo of those who fought for Texas had soldiers hailing from NY, NJ, etc. who travelled all the way down there.  You native Texans would be Mexicans if it wasn't for Yankee help!  

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Hmmm now it is getting ugly. Texas needed Yankee help to avoid a future being labor for Louisiana people. This may yet be alot of fun.

[CHrisB]

What I mean is, the listing in the Alamo of those who fought for Texas had soldiers hailing from NY, NJ, etc. who travelled all the way down there.  You native Texans would be Mexicans if it wasn't for Yankee help!  

Dangit, I've stayed out of this long enough!  I've been relatively quiet because I'll more easily concede than some of the others that TX is a state devoid of truly elite golf...

But Yankee help keepin' Texans from being Mexicans?  Now them's fightin' words!!

May I remind everyone that the Texans LOST the battle at the Alamo, and in future battles leading up to the Battle of San Jacinto the battle cry was "Remember the Alamo!"

I did not know that Yankees fought for Texas at the Alamo, but if so then the loss might make a little more sense.  Who knows?  Without the "help" from our northern friends, Texas might have actually WON the battle at the Alamo, which could have brought about a major shift in Santa Anna's war plan, and with Texans having no motivational rally cry Mexico might actually have won and I'd be speaking Spanish today.

So, Scott, on second thought maybe you are correct: We native Texans might indeed be Mexicans if it wasn't for Yankee "help"!

Yeeee-haaaa!


P.S.--Are there any greens that run above 9 on the stimp in this state?  Sheez...

[Steve Lang]

Tiger,

Ya know the only difference between a coon ass and a horse's ass is the TX/LA state line..

[Scott_Burroughs]

I don't remember anything on my tour of the Alamo mentioning a lost battle.    I was too busy looking for the basement.  

It wasn't just Yankees who joined the forces, it was people from all over the U.S., Southerners, too, so it ain't nobody's fault.  Santa Anna's troops included mercenaries from the U.S.!  Traitors!

It was all part of the long range plan, though.  Yankees getting rid of the bad soldier families so they'd be better prepared for places like Manassas, Gettysburg, etc.  

I'm a Yankee only by birth geography, really.  I always differentiate that I'm not a 'New Yorker', but from a small town in western NY.  I've lived in the South almost half my life and drink my sweet tea proudly.

[CHrisB]

Scott,
I'm with you, brotha.  The flag of your adopted state, NC, is essentially the TX flag upside-down, and since I lived in NC as well I feel a brotherly connection to you and other Tar Heels.



Wish we had your courses, though...interested in a straight-up trade: the two Champions courses for Old Town and Pinehurst #2?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Steve I am on your side here. I just followed the natural order that would have followed if Texas were in Mexco. lol

[Scott_Burroughs]

Gott a hang of the smilies, eh?   A little closer trade might be Austin GC and Colonial or Dallas National (according to Lou).



I hope somebody picked up on my "basement" reference!

[Steve Lang]

Talk about classic courses!!!  How about this language lifted from 1836???

These, and other grievances, were patiently borne by the golfing people of Texas, until they reached that point at which forbearance ceases to be a virtue. We then took up arms in defence of the national constitution. We appealed to our NE golfing bretheren and our appeal has been made in vain. Though months have elapsed, no sympathetic response has yet been heard from the Interior. We are, therefore, forced to the melancholy conclusion, that the NE golfing people have acquiesced in the destruction of their liberty, and the substitution therfor of a military government; that they are unfit to be free, and incapable of self government.

The necessity of self-preservation, therefore, now decrees our eternal political separation.

We, therefore, the delegates with plenary powers of the golfing people of Texas, in solemn convention assembled, appealing to a candid world for the necessities of our condition, do hereby resolve and declare, that our political connection with the NE golfing nation has forever ended, and that the people of Texas do now constitute a free, Sovereign, and independent republic, and are fully invested with all the rights and attributes which properly belong to independent nations; and, conscious of the rectitude of our intentions, we fearlessly and confidently commit the issue to the decision of the Supreme arbiter of the destinies of nations.

Signed by a bunch of folks..

After all.. The Daughters of the Republic of Texas, saved the crumbling Alamo complex from being turned into a hotel by a New York syndicate in 1905, and has long maintained it as a shrine to these fighters to this day.

So what's a TX Classic course?  I propose one that tests your golfing skills and survival instincts with varied features both natural and man made in the heat, wind and rain!

[CHrisB]

Scott,

I would trade any course in Texas for Pinehurst #2 or Old Town.  I have tremendous respect for those courses and would love for them to be closer!  No course in TX can sniff #2...  I suppose one could argue effectively that there are a few courses in TX that would surpass Old Town, but I haven't seen one yet and I've played 131 courses in this state!

But as was said earlier, we have many many courses that fall just a level below great, and new tracks are popping up all the time...I agree that the best is yet to come for TX.

[texsport]

Just for the record-the PGA pros playing this week at the flat and 7500 yd. Redstone GC for the Shell Houston Open are raving about the fairness and character of the golf course. During an interview with Fred Couples, he mentioned that more of the name players( Couples, Els, Mickelson, Singh) are playing in Houston this year because they can hit driver on 14 holes so the tournament is not just the putting contest like those created by "strategic" lay up courses. Couples went on to say that nothing is more frustrating and BORING than being continually forced to lay up off the tees.

On 18 yesterday, Hank Kuene hit his tee shot 380 yards. (350 carry).

If you want an expert medical opinion, you see a physician. If you want an expert opinion about what a good golf course is, see a PGA Tour professional.

Texsport

[texsport]

Scott,

I would trade any course in Texas for Pinehurst #2 or Old Town.  I have tremendous respect for those courses and would love for them to be closer!  No course in TX can sniff #2...  I suppose one could argue effectively that there are a few courses in TX that would surpass Old Town, but I haven't seen one yet and I've played 131 courses in this state!

But as was said earlier, we have many many courses that fall just a level below great, and new tracks are popping up all the time...I agree that the best is yet to come for TX.

I think it's a little difficult to like #2 that much. All the holes are the same - hit it to the green, watch it bounce over-chip back.

However, it is long and flat.

Texsport

[THuckaby2]

I hope somebody picked up on my "basement" reference!

Of course, Scott.  Can you say "adobe"?

Long live PeeWee.

TH

[Matt_Ward]

This thread has lasted longer than those who defended the Alamo!