[ChipOat]

OK, so I won't ever start a comparative thread ever again.  Some of you guys are just no fun.

However, the ratings/rankings are a legitimate golf architecture topic and I, for one, am interested in dialogues/opinions about where SOME of those relative rankings are based on what's on the ground versus other attributes such as history, scenery, reputation, etc., etc.

For instance, I enjoy reviewing my own personal preferences and discussing whether it's really the just the golf course that I enjoy (or not) or are there a host of other factors that make me want to return (or not)?

Tom Paul:

I'll provide the claret and you pick the venue that makes a good martini and, also, has at least halfway decent food.  Since we don't want to share any of the wine (I only have a single bottle of anything good), nobody else is to be invited.  You may prove to be right but, given how we intend to find out, do you really care how this little wager turns out?

As a hopeless linear thinker, I must acknowledge that Patrick's arguments are eminently logical and, at the least, much easier to follow and digest than some others that require constant re-reading.

Bill Brightly:

No, I'm not saying that.  I'm saying that, well......I'm saying what you quoted me as saying.  I believe, for what my opinion's worth, that Fishers Island is roughly the equivalent of Piping Rock and, to a lesser degree, The Creek in terms of the merits of what's on the ground (which includes the water that comes into play at both FI and TC).  Raters and magazines can rank them anyway they choose.  I prefer to try and strip out the non-architecture stuff in my mind because that's what I like to do.  On that basis, the meaningfully higher ranking, and general perception, of FI versus the other two is worthy of a thread in that regard on this DG.

If the question had to do with visual appeal, Fishers wins hands down (except in a dense fog) and PRC is bringing up the rear.

[Matt_Ward]

Chip:

I agree w Bill B -- the location is part and parcel of the discussion. If you were to take your point -- which I can perfectly understand -- one can apply that to those who ask where the overall beef is with other places -- like Pebble Beach -- which maximize their standing because of the proximity of the H20.

Chip, the "non-architecture stuff" you mentioned is really an element that can't be divorced from the actual holes themselves.

Location does matter.

In terms of an analysis of just the holes from say FI when held against the likes of PR and TC -- I do agree that from a consistency standpoint the latter two are quite good in plenty of ways. Clearly, FI benefits from the journey it takes most people to get there in making the effort to play there.

I will say this -- in the two times I have played the course -- the weather was simply glorious both times and it swayed me in a big time way. Is FI really a top 25 course in the USA -- for me -- it would not be but I'd have to say among all the SR courses I have played it's the best of that group.

To answer you question -- I don't see FI being that much better than the other two -- but it clearly benefits from where it's located.

[Bob_Huntley]

What is it we look for in a golf course? I know nothing of Piping Rock or the Creek but I have played Fishers Island but once and consider it one of the most enjoyable experiences of my golfing life. Yes , the first hole does not take your breath away but the rest of the round is a veritable feast. Most of my golfing days have been spent on a Raynor course that was finished after he had died and Fishers  seems to have followed suit.

Fishers may have some deficiencies but rather like a wrinkle in the brow of a loved one, it is gem to treasure.

Bob

[Kyle Harris]

"Not to the point of the thread, but Tom is perhaps the best I've ever seen at taking a course for its merits and nothing more. He has reaffirmed my belief that every golf course has SOMETHING to it.

Comparative architecture is crap, really. Yeah, I said it."


Kyle:

Tom who? There are a lot of Toms on this website.

Tom You

[Bill Brightly]

Chip,

One more thing: you can't just look at "what is on the ground" because the game is also played in the air!

Given that Fishers Island is on an ISLAND in the middle of the LI Sound, it has WIND! Take what might appear to be a simple hole and add 20 to 30 mph winds, and the hole's difficulty goes up exponentially. So that is why the site gives FI such a huge advantage.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chipoat,

I  haven't played Fisher's Island and hope to do so in the not too distant future.

I noticed that you placed Piping Rock above The Creek.

I love both courses, but, as Bill B points out, the element of the wind seems to be a catalyst to greatness or at the very least, enhancement.

It's for that reason that I tend to prefer The Creek, although, barely by a nod.

Sitting up on the bluff, the early holes enjoy a good breeze and as you descend to and then away from the beach/water, the golf course seems to thrive on the wind.

The Redan at PR is vastly superior, however, the redan par 4 1st, combined with the reverse redan 8th are a neat combination of redans.  I also prefer the short at TC as it's "short".  I would like it even more if the internal contouring was restored.

The Biarritz at PR is also vastly superior in terms of the purity of the structure of the putting surface, but, the 11th at TC, with the wind up, is one hell of a golf hole.

As TEPaul said, or meant to say, comparisons often fail.

If one was exiled to either course and condemned to play it every day for the rest of their life, would they not be in golfing heaven ?

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I cannot comment on either PR OD The Creek having not played them, but I dont think that would change my answer anyway.
I cannot imagine Fishers ever bben accused of being overarted.
Such a wonderful example of early architecture, it has so many of the wonderful hole designs that we cherish, the setting is sublime, the course runs fast with sparse use of water, the green complexes brilliant and the entire aura of the place is just so special.

It is rather short by todays standards, but that is one of the things that makes it unique, nobody has come in and"modernised" what is a classic golf course.
You feel that it has remained untouched...a total throwback to design features that were cutting edge over a hundred yeras ago...I love the place!

[JMEvensky]

Why don't you just ask me where I would go if I had only one last round to play?

Actually,I'd be curious to hear the answer since you've probably more greats than most.BTW-neither Gulph Mills nor Fernandina Beach Muni count.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

ditto....I would be equally curious Tom....as I would to hear Patrick's answer to the same question?

[TEPaul]

"The Biarritz at PR is also vastly superior in terms of the purity of the structure of the putting surface, but, the 11th at TC, with the wind up, is one hell of a golf hole."


Pat:

I really don't like to compare holes course to course but how could one not be impressed by The Creek's Biarritz? The thing looks and plays like trying to hit the deck of an aircraft carrier with a golf ball from 200 yards away. The unique thing about that particular biarritz is it effectively is a total island green unlike most of the others in existence. All around it you have only about three steps of apron and beyond that you are in the water hazard. Remarkably The Creek's biarritz was originally designed with sand bunkers surrounding most of it. Not a great idea C.B. and Seth with a seriously rising tide surrounding that green!  

I can just see C.B.'s Creek Club nemesis Howard Dean screaming at him: "Charlie, what the Hell, your biarritz sand bunkers have just floated over to Piping Rock's beach club."

Charlie's wounded response was something along the lines of: "That's not my fault, obviously THAT ENGINEER messed up on that one."   

[TEPaul]

If I had just one round to play and that was the end of it there is no question at all that it would be NGLA!

And if that was the case it would complete a remarkable bookend to a life of golf because I believe the first 18 hole round of golf I ever played was at NGLA. I was just a kid and it was with my father (a really good player), James Knott (a real curmudgeon and excellent player) and Bobby Grant (another world class character and great all around athlete).

There is no way I can forget that first round at NGLA with those three-----MY GOD was I scared!!  

PS:
I will also never forget how Grant and Knott went into the pro shop, bought a sleeve of new golf balls each and proceeded to drive all six right into Peconic Bay from the tips. Then they turned around and were ready to go. I don't think they even allow that odd (and to me back then oddly arrogant) practice anymore!

[JC Jones]

Maybe they didnt have time to hit the range?

[TEPaul]

JC:

Back in that day I don't believe NGLA even had a range. One of the reasons for that is club practice balls were not even something one saw very often. Most of those guys like my dad had their own. Back in that day, particularly with the good players, practice ball bags were very common. They are something one pretty much never sees anymore for obvious reasons. How times change, huh?

[JMEvensky]

JC:

Back in that day I don't believe NGLA even had a range. One of the reasons for that is club practice balls were not even something one saw very often. Most of those guys like my dad had their own. Back in that day, particularly with the good players, practice ball bags were very common. They are something one pretty much never sees anymore for obvious reasons. How times change, huh?

What do you mean "back in that day"?Hell,I'm 53 and can still remember having/using shag bags.

[TEPaul]

"OK, so I won't ever start a comparative thread ever again.  Some of you guys are just no fun.

However, the ratings/rankings are a legitimate golf architecture topic and I, for one, am interested in dialogues/opinions about where SOME of those relative rankings are based on what's on the ground versus other attributes such as history, scenery, reputation, etc., etc.

For instance, I enjoy reviewing my own personal preferences and discussing whether it's really the just the golf course that I enjoy (or not) or are there a host of other factors that make me want to return (or not)?"


Chipperino:

Don't lose heart. As far as I'm concerned you can start all the comparative threads you want; but when you do just be prepared to be lambasted for it by odd and eccentric duffuses like me. To me there should only be ONE rating and ranking list or system and that would be ONE's OWN!

And with that, I go for your last paragraph. No reason for you not to review your own personal preferences and to try to decide for YOURSELF whether it's really just the golf course you enjoy (or not) or are there a host of other factors that make you want to return (or not)? Have the courage of your own convictions in that vein, my friend. I don't see why you need someone else to confirm or deny them for you.

Frankly, I'm of the Henry VIII school of thought that one should always keep one's own council and if one's hat hears one's council then it is best to take one's hat off and cast it into the fire!!

On the other hand, if you still insist on trying to carry on DISCUSSIONS with others on here about the comparative pros and cons of golf holes or golf courses and you state your own beliefs and convictions about them and someone denies them and tries to argue with you, WELL THEN, Chipperino, you must be fully prepared to tell those people they are all a bunch of unsophisticated Know-Nothings with about as much taste as a third string guttersnipe!

[TEPaul]

"The Eden was very good....."


David Stamm, you unsophisticated Know-Nothing with about as much taste as a third string guttersnipe---the Eden at The Creek is the worst Eden Macdonald ever created and by a Long Island mile with the possible exception of The Eden at Piping Rock!!! (with the latter the idea of an Eden is to get some replication of the Eden River behind the green (like the Eden at Fishers Island) and not some damn tennis house, and with the former the same goes and not a bunch of completely uninspiring trees that are on Mrs Grundy's property!).

NOW, Fishers Island's Eden? THAT's an EDEN, and that overbearing putz, Charles Blair Macdonald, didn't have one damn thing to do with it!!

[John Mayhugh]

If I had just one round to play and that was the end of it there is no question at all that it would be NGLA!

And if that was the case it would complete a remarkable bookend to a life of golf because I believe the first 18 hole round of golf I ever played was at NGLA. I was just a kid and it was with my father (a really good player), James Knott (a real curmudgeon and excellent player) and Bobby Grant (another world class character and great all around athlete).

There is no way I can forget that first round at NGLA with those three-----MY GOD was I scared!!  

PS:
I will also never forget how Grant and Knott went into the pro shop, bought a sleeve of new golf balls each and proceeded to drive all six right into Peconic Bay from the tips. Then they turned around and were ready to go. I don't think they even allow that odd (and to me back then oddly arrogant) practice anymore!

Anyone else wondering if this Tom Paul guy is a real person?   

What a story for your first 18 hole round.  The only downside is the venues for future rounds pretty much just go downhill from there.

[TEPaul]

JohnM:

You know what I'm about to say really never occured to me until this moment, but back then and actually probably up until about the mid 1990s golf course architecture hardly ever occured to me at all. It was all about playing the game and probably about the people you were playing with which made up my recollections all those years.

Do you know NGLA and if you do can you guess which two holes I remembered clearest when I went back to NGLA after not having been there for about forty years?

That's probably something of a trick question because I thought previously that the two I remembered the clearest had something to do with the architecture of them but that may not be the case at all. On some reflection, I think the hole I remember the clearest from perhaps that first round (described above) was because I hit a shot to the green on that hole which I believe might have been the first really great shot I ever hit on a golf course. THAT alone I think now may be the sole reason that particular hole was so clear to me after all those decades. Again, I doubt it had anything to do with some sense of golf architecture, it was all about the exhiliration of that one shot, and perhaps even the reaction of the people I was with.

I suppose I tend to forget perhaps the over-riding salience of that kind of thing because for the last fifteen years or so I have so fallen in love with golf course architecture, something I virtually paid no attention to before that. I wonder how many golfers out there are the way I used to be in that vein.

It gives one such as us on here some pause, don't you think? And here is another thought that may very well astound a lot of people-----do you realize that as they always said Bobby Fischer remembered clearly every single move he ever made in his remarkably august career in chess those who knew Sam Snead have all said that he could remember crystal clear every golf shot he ever hit. Think about that! If true it really is remarkable and I wonder what it really means.

[Bill Brightly]

Tom,

Has to be holes 3 and 4, Alps and Redan, right?

[TEPaul]

BillB:

Actually it was the 1st and the 16th. I guess the first because it really is pretty odd and memorable for that reason for a first timer there and I guess I had plenty of time on that tee with those guys waiting to go off. The 16th because that's where I hit my first great shot of my life. After about forty years I could only very vaguely remember the holes you mentioned. Can you believe it? It really does show how little I thought about architecture or noticed it but if there was a close third I guess it was the Cape Hole for reasons that should be pretty obvious for a kid who wasn't much of a golfer at the time (all that water to go over).

The only other hole that really stands out to me from way back then is The Creek's Biarritz (#11). That is the hole I hit my first golf shot on a golf course. I wasn't even playing the course at the time. The only reason that was my first shot on a golf course was because I was over at the beachclub with my neighor, Scotty Graham and his mother and apparently Scotty and I were acting like such incorrigible brats Mrs Graham took us both by the ear and led us out to her car and gave us her golf bag and told us to go over to that hole (it's right next to the beachclub) and hit all the balls in her bag and leave her the hell alone for a while.

[TEPaul]

Chip and BillB:

You know this particular thread about PR, FI and The Creek is really beginning to bring back some memories of things I haven't thought of in over fifty years.

For instance, when I grew up around there it was Piping Rock I knew so well because that's where all my friends were. My neighbor's family belonged to The Creek but back then Piping and The Creek had a pretty intense rivalry going (even if basically friendly). For that reason The Creek always seemed sort of like enemy territory to me. I don't think I ever even played the course until I went up there from Philly maybe in the mid 1980s to try to qualify for the US Mid Amateur because I wanted to get away from competing against all the guys I knew so well in Philly.

But now for various reasons it's The Creek and people from there I see so much more than Piping Rock. I'm more familiar now with Creek's course than I am even with Piping and it occured to me this morning I may not have played Piping Rock now for up to twenty five years.

Amazing. Where does all the time go?   

[John Mayhugh]

JohnM:

You know what I'm about to say really never occured to me until this moment, but back then and actually probably up until about the mid 1990s golf course architecture hardly ever occured to me at all. It was all about playing the game and probably about the people you were playing with which made up my recollections all those years.

Do you know NGLA and if you do can you guess which two holes I remembered clearest when I went back to NGLA after not having been there for about forty years?

I was fortunate to play 36 at NGLA next year.  Between that trip to the promised land and Bahto's book, I know the holes pretty well. 

I would guess the strongest memories would come from the Alps and Punchbowl.  Even if you didn't know anything about architecture when you first played those holes, they are so unique that it seems the memories would last.

[TEPaul]

"I was fortunate to play 36 at NGLA next year."


JohnM:

You were or you did? How cool is that? What do you have, some kind of time machine? Can I get a ride on it? I'd like to see what I played in 2013 or if I'm even still around.

[John Mayhugh]

"I was fortunate to play 36 at NGLA next year."


JohnM:

You were or you did? How cool is that? What do you have, some kind of time machine? Can I get a ride on it? I'd like to see what I played in 2013 or if I'm even still around.

Oops.  Meant last year.
I'll be very, very fortunate if I get to play it again next year or any other year.

Were either of my hole guesses correct?

[ChipOat]

Bill Brightly:

I do count the wind as part of what's "on the ground", if you know what I mean.  I still think PRC and The Creek are Fishers Island's equal in terms of pure architecture even though the wind is rarely much of a factor at Piping and, usually, less of one at TC than at FI.

RE: Practice balls at NGLA since JC asked and TEP gave a partial answer.

Until about 1982-ish, NGLA had no practice balls - you used your own or the pro used his/yours for lessons and an available caddy "shagged" for you.  You can still see where the small practice tee used to be just below the flagpole in the right rough on #18.

Any warm-up shots of a quick nature were either struck off a rubber mat into a net behind the golf shop from a distance of about 15 feet and/or a player would hit a few (usually old) balls into Peconic Bay from the back of the first tee as Tom Paul described.  In a tournament, the back of the first tee was officially designated as "not a part of the golf course" so that a player could bust a few drives into the bay prior to a medal play round without being in violation of the Rules of Golf.

Several things happened to change all that:

First, a guest's warm up drive into the net hit the aluminum frame that supported it and struck him in the eye on the rebound.  The lawyers had the net taken down permanently the next day.  Second, Shinnecock had built quite a nice range for the 1977 Walker Cup so National had already been thinking about spending the $$$ to get with the program.  However, part of NGLA's charm is that change is rarely considered necessary so it took the net thing made the decision easier.

However, the practice of hitting a couple of one's own spheroids into Peconic Bay continued until about 10 years ago when it dawned on some lawyer that most of those shots either landed on the beach where people were walking (private property) or in the water where someone was swimming (public property but not a convenient place to just go take a quick dip unless you were staying at National).  Perhaps somebody got clocked - or almost did.  This was not new news as the beach, the bay and the back of the first tee had all been in the same location since 1912, but, nonetheless, the practice has been discontinued at all times by order of the Board of Governors.

As to the practice of buying a couple of sleeves of brand new Spalding Dot's or Dunlop Maxfli's to knock out into Peconic Bay, those guys were running in Tom Paul's heavy money crowd.  My friends and I would keep a few shag balls in our bag to use for that purpose and kept our new balata Titleist's for the golf course.

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