[ChipOat]

I'm going to raise some hackles on this one, I'll bet.  The real title I had in mind should be, "Is Fishers Island SLIGHTLY overrated?" but that wouldn't have gotten as much attention so I went with the more provocative one.

First, I think Fishers is a magnificently beautiful, and wonderfully designed golf course and I could play there every day and still love it.

But the MacDonald/Raynor thread got me thinking about Piping Rock and The Creek versus Fishers.  If you compare the pure architecture (admittedly, as I view it) and strip out the gorgeous ocean views at Fishers, does Fishers really deserve all the raving it gets that puts it so far ahead of the other two in the minds of almost everybody?  Not in my opinion.

It isn't easy to move a lot of earth around, dig deeper bunkers and build more creative green complexes on a small, essentially private island located 12 miles offshore - especially in 1918.  Erego, I think Piping Rock and The Creek OUGHT to be at least as good as Fishers - if not better.

The best example I can think of is the Redan at each of the three (apologies to those on this site who haven't played them).  It would have been, and would still be, a major undertaking to re-create the depth of the bunkers and pitch of the green at Fishers compared to Piping, Creek, National, Shinnecock, Somerset Hills (Tillinghast) and all the others that I haven't ever seen.  At Fishers, if you dig down more than 3 feet, you hit salt water.  To make a Redan with the same teeth and degree of difficulty as those mainland examples, the green would have had to be built UP a good five feet which then requires an elevated tee box - which would probably look stupid sitting there next to the first green.

Are there some world class holes at Fishers Island?  Of course there are - it's a Raynor.  Biarritz comes to mind as the best I've ever seen and the Alps/Punchbowl combo is another mega-winner.

But does Fishers deserve its elevated stature on most radar screens versus Piping Rock and The Creek?  As a golf PLACE, Fishers Island is hard to beat anywhere.  As a golf COURSE, I think the other two are just as good (or better) - and they should be.

Go ahead, guys - take your shots at this heretic.

[Joel_Stewart]

Fishers may not be the best course in the world but its the nicest.     

I played there once, a few years ago and I can't remember half the holes.  With that said, I remember it being a magical day and couldn't have enjoyed myself more.

[TEPaul]

Chip:

I would like to bite but I won't because I've never really gone for this thing about discussing if some course is BETTER than another or others. To me it's just a matter of if a course is good or not and why. All of them are very good good courses for sure, as it Fishers. The only knock I've ever had on Fishers is that a few holes have never been very inspiring to me. That would include the 1st and the 10th for some reason and probably the 15th. On all three I've always sort of felt like you just hit the ball to get from here to the next good hole the way it is and should be.

With the redan, I hear what you're saying but I've always liked the hole and I always tried not to even thing of it as a redan, just a par 3 hole and a good and interesting one at that. I'd like to see them keep the grass up some in the hazard just to keep the overall sight of the hole from the tee a little blindish and deceptive for that reason. I like the idea on that hole of sort of knowing where you should go but not being able to clearly see the latitude of the line particularly the aggressive line a bit to the left of the safer right line.

But most all the rest of the holes have something pretty cool going for them and are wonderful to me for their unique personalities and some are awesome every time you play them. #3 is a real sleeper gem and #4 is awesome and unforgettable as is #5. It's Interesting that with a number of the old line members their favorite is actually #8 which definitely offers a tee shot, particularly in the wind, that makes one pucker and on which one can go very wrong in a heartbeat with the wrong line!

So that's my take, Chipperino, not all that much but there you have it.

I guess there's more such as the approach shot to #9 particularly in the wind. It may not be long but it's just a really cool shot anyway and particularly with the backdrop and the potential danger seems to stay in your mind right into your backswing!

Oh, the Eden! Pretty damn fine hole too and it certainly is an Eden with a river or bay or whatever behind it as an Eden should be.

Is Fishers Island over-rated? Not in my book!

[ChipOat]

Tom,

Do you think Fishers is THAT much better than PRC or The Creek?  That's the point of my thread.

I've only played seven "MacRaynors" and several of those before I discovered GCA (e.g. Yale).  For pure, on-the-ground architecture, Piping Rock is my #2 behind NGLA. 

[Kyle Harris]

I think Mountain Lake gets the same reputation from a good number of people, not surprising considering their deeply rooted connections and parallel histories.

However, perhaps we must look at Fishers and Mountain Lake in the vein in which they were designed... destination, getaway golf courses. I've always called Mountain Lake Raynor's "Resort" Course. It is Raynor Lite with some pretty cool stuff regardless.

[Bill Brightly]

Chip,

The site is a HUGE factor when you analyze a course, and I can't think of too many sites in the U.S. that are better than Fishers. So it would seem wrong to take points away from the golf course because the site is so good...

[Jud_T]

Yes slightly. If you couldn't see the water from every tee and every green it wouldn't rate so highly, but fact is you can!

[ChipOat]

Bill,

To me, the site (and the high ranking) at Fishers is more about the view than what's on the ground (which is still awfully good).  With the exception of Biarritz and Alps, I think Piping Rock and, to a lesser degree, The Creek are the equals of Fishers Island in terms of golf architecture because of the green complexes.

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
Do you think Fishers is THAT much better than PRC or The Creek?  That's the point of my thread."


Chip:

No I don't. I think they are all very good courses and very good architecture and that is the point of my last post.


I don't like discussing what courses are better than other courses but if one wants to discuss with me what I think is good, moderate or not that good about any particular golf course I am more than willing to do that. I've just never really seen the point of comparative discussions of golf courses. But I have no problem at all with discussing the positves and negative of A golf course.

[Robert Emmons]

I don't think so, I would think just about right. For me the most overrated of the three is the Creek and the most underrated Piping...RHE

[David Stamm]

I've only played the Creek. The Biarritz green was not what I had hoped, but from what I've been told, it's because the water table there would not allow a more pronounced swale in the green. The Eden was very good and I liked the Reverse Redan. The green on 6 is un-freaking-believable and 15 is sublime. I absolutely love the place.

[ChipOat]

Tom Paul,

If you won't play the comparison game, how do you expect to participate in many of the pissing contests around here?

Besides, are you telling me that, if you and I split a bottle of good claret with an extra dry martini beforehand, that I couldn't get you to give me a detailed opinion of the merits of Gulph Mills versus other Donald Ross creations?  If you think, "no", you're in denial.

Do you remember the Monty Python sketch about "The Argument"?  If not, see YouTube.

[ChipOat]

David,

The Creek has great views and many excellent holes - including the best golf hole from tee-to-green that's ever been built (#6).

In my opinion, Piping Rock, which has no "eye candy", is the (slightly) better golf course because a) with over 300 acres, they had much more property than anybody ever needs for 18 holes, b) the green complexes are, on the whole, more imaginative (despite the one's you mention, The Creek still has a couple that could be better, I think) and c) building good golf holes in low lying, marsh-y areas isn't easy.

[TEPaul]

"Besides, are you telling me that, if you and I split a bottle of good claret with an extra dry martini beforehand, that I couldn't get you to give me a detailed opinion of the merits of Gulph Mills versus other Donald Ross creations?"


Chipperino:

I am indeed! I will give you alll the merits and drawbacks of GMGC I am aware of but not in comparison to some other course or Ross course.

 

"If you think, "no", you're in denial."


THAT is your opinion and not my problem. Frankly, you are beginning to sound more and more like Patrick Mucci. Is there some reason for that you might be aware of, and if so please try to get over it and hopefully in a hurry!


I am of the opinion, and always have been, that one can deal with a particular golf course----make it better, make it worse, whatever, in the context of that particular golf course but one can never do that in the context of some other golf course compared to another. Futhermore, one does not and never has played two or three golf courses at the same time----one only plays one at a time and that is all that needs to be considered in and about any golf course and what it is about quality-wise.

What you are asking me to do is not critique the specifics and particulars of any golf course (which I am willing to do); you are asking me to engage in cocktail conversation about golf courses and golf archhitecture in comparson! 

Why don't you just ask me where I would go if I had only one last round to play?

[Tom MacWood]

Let me begin by saying I don't believe FI is overrated, I love the golf course, but it is one of the more unusual Raynor golf courses I've seen. In comparing the highs to other Raynor courses, the highs are extremely high, but the lows are quite low, that is relative to other SR courses. The result is you have a pretty significant contrast. The other unusual contrast are the features, you have some of the wildest land forms and big scale man-made features contrasted with some of the most low profile features I've seen on a Raynor course.

From what I understand Raynor died prior to the course being completed, and it was finished by Banks. I suspect there is more than to that story because if anything Banks seemed to kick it up a notch over Raynor. The other unusual aspect of the course is the lack of fairway bunkering, I believe there is only one on the entire golf course.

[Kyle Harris]

Not to the point of the thread, but Tom is perhaps the best I've ever seen at taking a course for its merits and nothing more. He has reaffirmed my belief that every golf course has SOMETHING to it.

Comparative architecture is crap, really. Yeah, I said it.

[Bill Brightly]

Tom,

I hope that you are not implying that Fishers is less than it could be because Banks finished the course.

Raynor died while the course was under construction, but Raynor did the routing and was there for the first year of construction, Banks the second. The FI centennial book is pretty clear that Banks finished it per Raynor's plans.

[Bill Brightly]

Bill,

To me, the site (and the high ranking) at Fishers is more about the view than what's on the ground (which is still awfully good).  With the exception of Biarritz and Alps, I think Piping Rock and, to a lesser degree, The Creek are the equals of Fishers Island in terms of golf architecture because of the green complexes.

Chip, are you saying that the water is not a major factor in playing the course?

[George_Bahto]

Chip; "I'm going to raise some hackles on this one, I'll bet"


hackle hackle  hackle  hackle  hackle  hackle  hackle  hackle

[TEPaul]

"Not to the point of the thread, but Tom is perhaps the best I've ever seen at taking a course for its merits and nothing more. He has reaffirmed my belief that every golf course has SOMETHING to it.

Comparative architecture is crap, really. Yeah, I said it."


Kyle:

Tom who? There are a lot of Toms on this website.

[JC Jones]

"Not to the point of the thread, but Tom is perhaps the best I've ever seen at taking a course for its merits and nothing more. He has reaffirmed my belief that every golf course has SOMETHING to it.

Comparative architecture is crap, really. Yeah, I said it."


Kyle:

Tom who? There are a lot of Toms on this website.

Bunch of turkeys....

[cary lichtenstein]

I only played there once, in a gale and I loved it. I would need a few more plays in varying weather.

[TEPaul]

"Let me begin by saying I don't believe FI is overrated, I love the golf course, but it is one of the more unusual Raynor golf courses I've seen."


Let me begin by saying I do not for a minute believe Tom MacWood has ever been to Fishers Island or ever actually seen the golf course of Fishers Island. His remark on here seems to make it sound that way but I, for one, do not believe it, any more than I believe he has ever seen Myopia, Merion or Pine Valley, some of the significant courses in America he has nevertheless expressed his opinions on the specific details on, as well as the specifics of their architectural histories and such! One needs to ask---how is that? Is it only through newspaper and magazine articles?

Personally, I do not think that is or ever will be sufficient but what the hell do I know? 

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

I hope that you are not implying that Fishers is less than it could be because Banks finished the course.

Raynor died while the course was under construction, but Raynor did the routing and was there for the first year of construction, Banks the second. The FI centennial book is pretty clear that Banks finished it per Raynor's plans.

I had read Banks finished the course (I read the club history on the boat ride back to LI with Donnie Beck), and although I do see some Banks influence it has several holes that are more low profile than anything I've seen of Banks (or Raynor). I think there must be more to the story.

Banks' nickname was steamshovel. How difficult would it be to get steamshovels on to the island in 1927? Perhaps not difficult at all, but I don't know the answer.

[ed_getka]

Chip,
   I haven't played PR or Creek so I can't compare. I have never heard anyone ever say Fishers has 18 great golf holes. I don't even know what it is ranked. I can say that Fishers is the course I daydream about the most and obviously the setting has something to do with that. Holes #3-5 and #8-12 are the significant stretch of holes architecturally to my way of thinking. None of the rest are bad holes by any stretch of the imagination.
   I'm sure the exclusivity of the course, the ferry ride over that heightens the anticipation (must be somewhat akin to driving down Magnolia Lane I would think), and the stunning setting add so much to the mystique of the place that it's ranking is positively affected.
   I think North Berwick would be a course that one could say is overrated in purely architectural terms like FI, but not many people rate courses that way. NB has a number of mediocre holes, but the great, funky, quirky ones more than make up for it and thus NB is on the short list of any serious golfer who crosses the pond.
    So yes one could say that FI is overrated, but I won't be the one saying it.

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