[Jason Topp]

I just returned from a short New Mexico trip in which I played Towa, Paa Ko Ridge, and Black Mesa. Towa is an enjoyable course, quirky, pretty tight with wonderful scenery.  Paa Ko and Black Mesa are about as good as it gets. 

I did not take many pictures on my trip this weekend but thought I would share a few:

18 Green looking back



Clubhouse while waiting on Frost



Brad Klein Sign



Windmill



8th at Paa Ko Ridge

[Matt_Cohn]

How would you split 10 rounds between PKR and BM? If you could only play one round, which course would it be?

[Sean Eidson]

I did a similar trip 3 weeks ago.

Black Mesa struck me with the same type of eye-opening jolt as the first time I played Pacific dunes.  The conjunction of incredible design and incredible setting made up for the fact that I struggled to keep the ball in play.  It was surprising how penal the native areas were, and on many holes they were in play on every shot for me.  When I was there, they had just top dressed the greens, so they were running a bit slow.  That probably saved us from some 3 and 4 putts, but also made it tough to actually hole putts.  We played 36 holes and I look forward to a return in a few years.  I thought BM was a Doak 8-9

I found Paa Ko to be disappointing, although that may have been due to the combination of holes we played.  With time for only one round, we only saw holes 1-9 and 19-27.  I think we had 5 par threes that were the same shot:  Down hill 220 yards to a big green.  The bunkering and expansive greens were a treat and it was great to play through the foothills at the base of Sandia Crest.  However, one of my playing partners said "This is like playing in Dallas, but with mountains in the background."  I think that might be a bit harsh, but I would give PKR a Doak 6-7.  Not sure I will take extra time on a future trip to play BM.

My split on 10 rounds would be BM 9, PKR 1, with the caveat that I might play PKR more if I knew that I was going to get the original 18

[Matt_Ward]

Jason:

Ciurious to know from you and others who have played the two -- how did find the par-3's at Paa-Ko. Save for the 16th they are really
fairly similar in terms of type.

Also, how did you view the bunkers at Paa-Ko -- the feeling I get, and one shared by a few others, is that they look forced upon the natuiral topography -- in sum, they seem to stand-out -- as opposed to blending in more naturally.

Jason, you did mention Towa briefly -- I have to say the par-5 1st at Towa -- don't recall at this precise moment the exact nine it's on is a standout hole. It made me curious to see what was ahead but alas that was the main highlight point. That hole would be among my top 18 in New Mexico public golf.

Sean E:

Excellent quote from you golfing pal.

Have to say holes 10-18 are among the best at Paa-Ko and you unfortunately were unable to play it. The concluding trio are what makes a visit to Paa-Ko worthwhile.

Final thing -- I too shared that "jolt" you mentioned when I first came to the property even before it opened.

[Bill_McBride]

I'm also a 9-1 Black Mesa fan, particularly when the third nine at Paa Ko is in play.  I thought there were some awkward holes up there.  Black Mesa is a modern classic.  Have to keep those tee shots in play!

[Jason Topp]

How would you split 10 rounds between PKR and BM? If you could only play one round, which course would it be?

Matt:

I would go 8 Black Mesa/2 Paa Ko.  I thought Black Mesa was about as fun as golf gets - terrific and varied par threes, two good short par fours, three wonderful par fives and constant variety in a dramatic landscape.  The only hole that did not make the best first impression on me was the 16th.  I never hit the ball well there and made a birdie and a par but it seemed like a series of blind layups.  I might like it better with repeat play.

Paa Ko is also a wonderful golf course in a stunning landscape.  It does not have the natural raw feel that I enjoy so much at Black Mesa.  I thought the course was a bit more repetitive, particularly with the par threes.  Nonetheless, I would return without hesitation.

1 round would be Black Mesa for me by a pretty wide margin.

[Jason Topp]

I did a similar trip 3 weeks ago.

Black Mesa struck me with the same type of eye-opening jolt as the first time I played Pacific dunes.  The conjunction of incredible design and incredible setting made up for the fact that I struggled to keep the ball in play.  It was surprising how penal the native areas were, and on many holes they were in play on every shot for me.  When I was there, they had just top dressed the greens, so they were running a bit slow.  That probably saved us from some 3 and 4 putts, but also made it tough to actually hole putts.  We played 36 holes and I look forward to a return in a few years.  I thought BM was a Doak 8-9

I found Paa Ko to be disappointing, although that may have been due to the combination of holes we played.  With time for only one round, we only saw holes 1-9 and 19-27.  I think we had 5 par threes that were the same shot:  Down hill 220 yards to a big green.  The bunkering and expansive greens were a treat and it was great to play through the foothills at the base of Sandia Crest.  However, one of my playing partners said "This is like playing in Dallas, but with mountains in the background."  I think that might be a bit harsh, but I would give PKR a Doak 6-7.  Not sure I will take extra time on a future trip to play BM.

My split on 10 rounds would be BM 9, PKR 1, with the caveat that I might play PKR more if I knew that I was going to get the original 18

Sean:

I agree that the third nine is repetitive and that 3 similar par 3's detracts from the quality of that nine. 

[Jason Topp]

Jason:

Ciurious to know from you and others who have played the two -- how did find the par-3's at Paa-Ko. Save for the 16th they are really
fairly similar in terms of type.

Also, how did you view the bunkers at Paa-Ko -- the feeling I get, and one shared by a few others, is that they look forced upon the natuiral topography -- in sum, they seem to stand-out -- as opposed to blending in more naturally.

Jason, you did mention Towa briefly -- I have to say the par-5 1st at Towa -- don't recall at this precise moment the exact nine it's on is a standout hole. It made me curious to see what was ahead but alas that was the main highlight point. That hole would be among my top 18 in New Mexico public golf.

Matt:

Par 3's at Paa Ko: 

I agree they are pretty similar.  I really like the 3rd with the giant green.  I have played the hole 4 times now and it provides entertainment and options for getting the ball near the hole. 

Bunkers:

I was not bothered by the bunker style at Paa Ko Ridge.  In general, however, I have decided I am not real concerned about bunker style.  Other than very severe cases, I don't think the style impacts play much.  Also, I view almost any bunker as artificial in appearance.     I care more about bunker placement.

Towa:

Both nines I played started with par fives.  My guess is that you are talking about the 1st on the Pinion 9 which has a terrific tee shot that, if you catch the hill correctly, makes a very long par five reachable.  The other nine started with a tough par five over a hill into the wind for us.  That side also was a bit frustrating because several holes required layup tee shots without a realistic agressive option.

Nonetheless, I had seen such negative comments on the course through trip advisor that I was pleasantly suprised and enjoyed my round there.  If I were scheduling the trip myself I would go to one of many other courses instead of that one.

[Sean Eidson]

At PKR, the repetitiveness of the Par 3's on the 3rd 9 (which we played first) were definitely it's prime drawback for me.  Looking back at the scorecard, the 3 par 3's were 198, 177, and 238.  Then we played the front 9, with par 3's of 151, which played about 180, and 236.  So, in retrospect, they weren't all the same shot, it just felt like it.  There were also a couple par 4 holes, like 27 where the approach is 200 yards downhill too.   I was also put-off by the names attached to a couple of the holes.  22 "Redan" was not.  24 "Postage Stamp" was not. 

I played the original 18 at PKR five years ago and found the 10-18 holes to be my favorite.  I was definitely bummed to not get to play them again. 

Just to be a little petty here, the difference in greens fees between BM and PKR probably played some role.  BM was $67 and PKR was $117.  While both are lower than what we'd pay for 4.5 star golf in Dallas, I didn't think PKR was $50 better.

[Sean Eidson]

How would you split 10 rounds between PKR and BM? If you could only play one round, which course would it be?

 The only hole that did not make the best first impression on me was the 16th.  I never hit the ball well there and made a birdie and a part but it seemed like a series of blind layups.  I might like it better with repeat play.

I wasn't a fan of 16 either.  I think the transition holes from one side of the ridge (10 and 16) felt crammed in there.  They served an important purpose, but just didn't flow well for me.  However, the reward for those lackluster holes are the really fun/beautiful holes on the back among the rock formations like 12,13,14.

[Jay Flemma]

Gl;ad you liked BM jase...I also like Paa-Ko, but BM is a much better design.  Great vacation trip though, isn't it?  Mix in a little hiking in the four corners region and you have every thing you could ask for.  Top it off with dinner at the Inn of the Anasazi one night.

[Matt_Ward]

Jason:

The thing about the 16th at BM is that the player has to decide whether hitting driver is the play there. The narrow slot between the right hand bunker and the left fall off is roughly 17 paces - I counted them on a previous visit. If a ball can make it through that narrow opening the opportunity to be more aggressive with the 2nd shot becomes a reality.

Clearly, many players opt for the more conservative route off the tee and with that comes a series of other challenges. In that instance -- you need to then hit two more demanding shots to get out of the hole safely.

I have no issue with the blindness and commend architect Baxter Spann for such a smart routing out of the area the course occupies for the fitting finale.

The more demanding aspect for the 16th is that the further back you are the more challenging the approach 3rd shot is.

The green can be reached in two blows by stronger players but again the play to the green is no e-z feat -- epecially when the pin is cut in the rear area or to the far left middle section.

Last item for now -- I think the par-3 4th on the original nine at Paa-Ko is a silly hole. Looks like a department store situation with the three levels. The par-3 16th I believe is the best of all the par-3 holes at the layout and makes for a stunning conclusion with the final four holes -- starting with the well done par-5 15th.

One other thought -- my comments on Paa-Ko bunkers were they look like they stand-OUT rather than blend in as they do at Black Mesa.

[Jason Topp]

Jason:

The thing about the 16th at BM is that the player has to decide whether hitting driver is the play there. The narrow slot between the right hand bunker and the left fall off is roughly 17 paces - I counted them on a previous visit. If a ball can make it through that narrow opening the opportunity to be more aggressive with the 2nd shot becomes a reality.

Clearly, many players opt for the more conservative route off the tee and with that comes a series of other challenges. In that instance -- you need to then hit two more demanding shots to get out of the hole safely.

I have no issue with the blindness and commend architect Baxter Spann for such a smart routing out of the area the course occupies for the fitting finale.

The more demanding aspect for the 16th is that the further back you are the more challenging the approach 3rd shot is.

The green can be reached in two blows by stronger players but again the play to the green is no e-z feat -- epecially when the pin is cut in the rear area or to the far left middle section.

Last item for now -- I think the par-3 4th on the original nine at Paa-Ko is a silly hole. Looks like a department store situation with the three levels. The par-3 16th I believe is the best of all the par-3 holes at the layout and makes for a stunning conclusion with the final four holes -- starting with the well done par-5 15th.

One other thought -- my comments on Paa-Ko bunkers were they look like they stand-OUT rather than blend in as they do at Black Mesa.

Matt

I also have no problem with blindness, but in our group of 16 there were several scratch golfers playing from the blue tees.  None of the better players saw the agressive option off the tee as a reasonable alternative because of the narrowness of the fairway at that point.   Still an interesting second shot but it makes reaching the green difficult.  I assume the 16th was needed to fit in the surrounding holes.  The quality of the surrounding holes makes any deficiencies in 16 worth it. 

I do not understand your criticism of the 4th at Paa Ko.  It looks a bit strange but I see no drawback in that.  Figuring out the options for using the slopes to get near the hole makes for an enjoyable unique challenge and great variability in how the hole plays from day to day.

I understand what you mean with your criticism of the appearance of the bunkers at Paa Ko.  Their appearance did not seem like a positive or a negative to me. 

[Steve Lang]

  Jason,

Which tee did you play on BM16???   Did you go all the way to the top?  and what'd you think of the 16th green.. front left pin placement is very challenging..

[Jason Topp]

Jason,

Which tee did you play on BM16???   Did you go all the way to the top?  and what'd you think of the 16th green.. front left pin placement is very challenging..

We played blue.  I wondered where the back tee was. 

I thought the green was terrific.  The pin was on the shelf back right which was very challenging if in the wrong position and very fun from the left because of the backboard slopes behind and to the right of the hole. 

[Adam Clayman]

Matt,
You make a great point when you wrote...

"Also, how did you view the bunkers at Paa-Ko -- the feeling I get, and one shared by a few others, is that they look forced upon the natuiral topography -- in sum, they seem to stand-out -- as opposed to blending in more naturally."

Then you say-(Ok write)

"The par-3 16th I believe is the best of all the par-3 holes at the layout and makes for a stunning conclusion with the final four holes"



Isn't this pond, on the 16th at Paa-ko, just as forced as those bunkers at Paa-ko?

Here's a bunker example from Paa-Ko



Here's bunkers from Black Mesa. It should be noted that Pat Brockwell has integrated maintenance practices which has accentuated the blending in aspect.



 

 Please justify the apparent dichotomy?

Thanks in advance.

p.s.
As an Aside;  I feel most par 3's with the type of water feature, found on the 16th at Paa-Ko, looks virtually the same. Can you say "The Chase"? Two of the four par 3's look similar there.




Don't you think?

The fourth at Paa-Ko Ridge


Naturally Matt and I disagree on this hole. Design eureka at it's finest. Ken Dye couldn't decide between two green sites. So, he combined them into one of America's most unique greens. It's the best thing at Paa Ko.

[Matt_Ward]

Adam:

With all respect -- the 4th is Macy's department store with multiple levels -- ladies apparel on the 1st floor, men's sporting goods on the second and kid's stuff on the 3rd. The issue is that it's just a simple attempt -- emphasis on the word simple -- in terms of quality design.

How about having two split greens instead?

When you ask about the best thing at Paa-Ko -- it's the final four (4) holes for me. They bring you home in fine fashion. The chute effect at the par-5 15th is well done with the H20 pinching in from the left side nearer the green.

The par-3 16th uses the water well as a wrap-around feature and the green contours there are blended in and more fitting without being so patently obvious as the 4th most certainly is. Let me also point out that the H20 at PK's 16th come much closer to any shot that is pulled slightly -- there are no frontal bunkers as you highlighted from other layouts which serve that purpose.

You also have two other holes -- the elevated tee overlooking the entire property is a nice treat and the risk/reward nature of that hole is also well done. The 18th maximizes both accuracy and distance elements to a green nicely framed by the cluibhouse in the rear.

Final point -- high desert layouts -- like Black Mesa have the considerable advantage in having such wide variations in terms of turf cover so that you can get the wild and untamed look you highlighted -- in addition, I do concur with you (surprise / surprise) on what Pat Brockwell has done -- few people I know understand thoroughly how to keep the F&F conditions in play for much of the playing season as he does.

[Matt_Ward]

I'd be curious to hear from those who are Golfweek raters and how they view Paa-Ko's 43rd rating among modern courses.

It's ahead of some interesting company -- by the way, Black Mesa is in the mid-90's, if memory serves and did have a significant drop from the same ratings a year earlier.

Final point / re: 16th hole at Paa-Ko. There are separate tee boxes for the hole -- one is higher than the other and as a result offers a different length and playing angle.

One other question to those who have played Paa-Ko -- how do they view the more recent nine holes. I don't see them being at the same level as the original 18 but I'd like to hear the comments -- I do like a few holes there -- the downhill par-3 6th, among them.

[George Pazin]

It's funny, in many ways I'm seen as the biggest BM critic on here, though that in no way reflects my actual thoughts on the course. For me, it's BM 10-0. I guess most would say play PKR once to see it, but I don't feel like I would've missed anything if I'd have skipped it.

Nice pics, I hardly recognize 18.

[Bill_McBride]

I'd be curious to hear from those who are Golfweek raters and how they view Paa-Ko's 43rd rating among modern courses.

It's ahead of some interesting company -- by the way, Black Mesa is in the mid-90's, if memory serves and did have a significant drop from the same ratings a year earlier.

Final point / re: 16th hole at Paa-Ko. There are separate tee boxes for the hole -- one is higher than the other and as a result offers a different length and playing angle.

One other question to those who have played Paa-Ko -- how do they view the more recent nine holes. I don't see them being at the same level as the original 18 but I'd like to hear the comments -- I do like a few holes there -- the downhill par-3 6th, among them.

Back nine at Paa Ko?  Thumbs down.  The holes didn't have the same feeling as the original 18.  Last time I was there was first time I saw the third nine, they sent us out to play 1-9 and 19-27.  This didn't make a lot of sense to me.  There were some awkward holes.  I was disappointed.

[Andy Troeger]

I don't think the original 18 at Paa-Ko is getting enough credit on this thread. If you take out the third nine and look solely at holes 1-18 you have a wonderful golf course with quite a bit of variety. The par threes can be a bit redundant, but in a normal round I hit approx 8 iron on 4, 6 iron on 16, 3 iron on 14, and hybrid on 8. To me that does create reasonable variety of shots required, even if all of them are downhill. Put me in the group that appreciates the green on #4. I also really like #2, #5, #6, #9, #12, #13, #15, and #17 as interesting holes. For more detail, I've probably posted on every Paa-Ko thread that has appeared in the past five years 

Black Mesa is also every bit as good as some of you have already commented.

I have both of them in my top 20, having played about 40 of the Top 100. I think the GolfWeek rating of Paa-Ko is entirely reasonable and think Black Mesa is underappreciated by the magazines. They are by far the two best courses in the Land of Enchantment in my book. And lest anyone think I am a homer, I originally played both courses before moving to NM and subsequent plays have only confirmed my original opinion! 

[Steve Lang]

  Jason,

i remember climbing way up to the elevated tee at BM#16, significantly up above the blue tees,,  and later spending like 20-30 minutes with Doug Wright, Ran and Sheila trying to figure out the 16th green!  Sheila did it first, almost taking Ran's money to sink the challenge putt!  (we played last because Ran had luggage - wardrobe issues.. )

Great picks thanks.. we're heading back

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Gun held to your head (figuratively) -- you have ten (10) rounds to play -- what's the split between Paa-Ko (any combo you wish) and BM ?

Andy, ask yourself this -- doesn't the repetitive elements at Paa-Ko -- the formulaic bunkering style and the same type of par-3 holes merit less of an overall standing.

Frankly, the original 18 is saved by the final four holes in my mind. Up to that point you have some really interesting holes in spots but for it to crack the top 50 USA modern listing you have to offer a good bit more than it does IMHO.

[Andy Troeger]

I'd go 5-5, but always play holes #1-18 at Paa-Ko. When I call to make times I literally plan to play on days that they have that configuration available. The other nine doesn't compare in the slightest.  Since I live in NM, I actually play Paa-Ko more often if anything, but its half the drive which has something to do with that.

As I mentioned, the par three variety is fine to me--not a strength but not this major weakness that many find. I hit four vastly different clubs--with the caveat that the pin on #4 isn't in the back which eliminates the "short" aspect of that hole. From my experience they rarely put the pin in the back anyway.

I think bunker appearance is vastly overrated, for good and bad, by many on this website. I'm not sure any bunkers would fit a mountain type site, so these work just fine for me.

I originally expected the course would fall the more often I played it--there certainly is a significant amount of wow factor, but every time I play the original 18 I am reminded of just how many really good holes exist out there.

[Matt MacIver]

This is from memory only after just one round but I agree that #3 at P-K was a very challenging and differentiating hole. 

My walk-away thought was that all the par 5s were relatively boring - very similar lay-up second shots, approach angles to greens weren't relevant, etc.  Maybe untrue but just more noticeable at BM. 

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