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Steve_ Shaffer

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Ferry Point(Nicklaus) in The Bronx, NY update
« on: October 03, 2009, 09:41:10 AM »
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Doug Braunsdorf

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Re: Ferry Point(Nicklaus) in The Bronx, NY update
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2009, 02:51:00 PM »
Steve-

  Interesting article.  I also saw this in today's WSJ.  Looks like a good idea.  Public, I didn't think this was a market that Nicklaus really operated in.  My limited understanding is that many of his courses are very difficult for the average player, and again, I am qualifying my comment based on a limited understanding. 
  I imagine this will take some pressure off the tee sheets at the other local/city courses, and of course the publics in Nassau and Jersey ;)
Both a good and bad thing, if you know what I mean.  I did wonder about the economics of this, price points, etc, given the area.
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Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Ferry Point(Nicklaus) in The Bronx, NY update
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2009, 03:18:40 PM »
Doug

It will be interesting to see the price points for this course and the ratings/slopes. Nicklaus has done some munis- North Palm Beach GC, Breckenridge in CO and Old Works in MT. He has some other public access courses out there that are privately owned.

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Jaeger Kovich

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Re: Ferry Point(Nicklaus) in The Bronx, NY update
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2009, 04:06:37 PM »
Someone was just asking me about this place the other day, so... This is great to hear. As a resident of NYC I welcome any form of public golf. NYC is filled with top rate private clubs, and doesn't have enough public courses to please the masses, so any new option for the public is great.

Hopefully they will aim to compete price wise with the Bethpage facility rather than Pound Ridge, the new Dye course.
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Tom Dunne

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Re: Ferry Point(Nicklaus) in The Bronx, NY update
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2009, 04:38:19 PM »
Jaeger, that was my thinking as well, but I'll be surprised if that happens. I posted on J.P. Newport's column earlier today:

http://out-and-back.net/?p=1290

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Jay Flemma

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Re: Ferry Point(Nicklaus) in The Bronx, NY update
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2009, 06:49:49 PM »
Quote from: Jaeger Kovich on October 03, 2009, 04:06:37 PM
Someone was just asking me about this place the other day, so... This is great to hear. As a resident of NYC I welcome any form of public golf. NYC is filled with top rate private clubs, and doesn't have enough public courses to please the masses, so any new option for the public is great.

Hopefully they will aim to compete price wise with the Bethpage facility rather than Pound Ridge, the new Dye course.

I hope so too, but weren't they tossing around $200 as a price point a while back?
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Mike Sweeney

Re: Ferry Point(Nicklaus) in The Bronx, NY update
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2009, 07:47:24 PM »
Quote from: Jay Flemma on October 03, 2009, 06:49:49 PM

I hope so too, but weren't they tossing around $200 as a price point a while back?

Jay,

Who is they? I have never heard this price point.
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Jay Flemma

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Re: Ferry Point(Nicklaus) in The Bronx, NY update
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2009, 07:48:55 PM »
Quote from: Mike Sweeney on October 03, 2009, 07:47:24 PM
Quote from: Jay Flemma on October 03, 2009, 06:49:49 PM

I hope so too, but weren't they tossing around $200 as a price point a while back?

Jay,

Who is they? I have never heard this price point.

Maybe you need to ask around more:)

Fake Poster Jay Flemma ;)
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Tom Dunne

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Re: Ferry Point(Nicklaus) in The Bronx, NY update
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2009, 08:10:24 PM »
Jay,

$200 would be worthy of an organized boycott given the history of the project. John Paul Newport posted a comment on my site a few minutes ago, though, saying that Parks Commissioner Benepe had informed him greens fees would be in line with other city courses. So that's encouraging news.
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Jay Flemma

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Re: Ferry Point(Nicklaus) in The Bronx, NY update
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2009, 08:13:32 PM »
I'm glad.  I had heard that there was quite the donnybrook in the past about price point.  According to my source, the city was pulling for a reasonable price point, but supposedly there were some who wanted it to be $200.  With Pound Ridge charging $235 and with Jack's name on it, many feared it would either never get built, or would price itself out of the general public.  Even Steve said above in his post, "The most expensive muni."
« Last Edit: October 03, 2009, 08:15:16 PM by Jay Flemma »
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Mike Sweeney

Re: Ferry Point(Nicklaus) in The Bronx, NY update
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2009, 08:27:56 PM »
Quote from: Jay Flemma on October 03, 2009, 08:13:32 PM
 According to my source, the city was pulling for a reasonable price point, but supposedly there were some who wanted it to be $200.  With Pound Ridge charging $235 and with Jack's name on it, many feared it would either never get built, or would price itself out of the general public.  Even Steve said above in his post, "The most expensive muni."

Jay,

Pound Ridge is a private ownership on private land. Ferry Point is on public land in The Bronx. Who are "they" and "some who wanted it to be $200"? Who participated in this "donnybrook"?

Now don't get all huffy and puffy but this just seems like another unsubstantiated rumor on GCA. Is Mike Bloomberg going to open a golf course at 4-5 times the price of every other course in NYC ?

Like I said earlier today, there is a little Cop in all the Irish, so don't take it so personally.
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Jay Flemma

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Re: Ferry Point(Nicklaus) in The Bronx, NY update
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2009, 08:35:25 PM »
Sorry, Mike, but journalists don't reveal sources...especially not in places like BBs.  But they were NOT GCAers, they were indy.
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Kyle Harris

Re: Ferry Point(Nicklaus) in The Bronx, NY update
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2009, 08:38:57 PM »
.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2009, 08:54:50 PM by Kyle Harris »
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Mike Sweeney

Re: Ferry Point(Nicklaus) in The Bronx, NY update
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2009, 08:41:03 PM »
Quote from: Jay Flemma on October 03, 2009, 08:35:25 PM
Sorry, Mike, but journalists don't reveal sources...especially not in places like BBs.  But they were NOT GCAers, they were indy.

quote author=Jay Flemma link=topic=41658.msg884428#msg884428 date=1254615212]
  According to my source, the city was pulling for a reasonable price point,
[/quote]

Jay,

Was it one source or two or more?
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Jay Flemma

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Re: Ferry Point(Nicklaus) in The Bronx, NY update
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2009, 08:43:53 PM »
More...as always.  Independent of each other.


« Last Edit: October 03, 2009, 09:00:57 PM by Jay Flemma »
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Mike Sweeney

Re: Ferry Point(Nicklaus) in The Bronx, NY update
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2009, 08:51:48 PM »
Quote from: Jay Flemma on October 03, 2009, 08:43:53 PM
More...as always.  Independent of each other.


Jay,

John Paul Newport posted on Tom Dunne's  blog, "Parks Commissioner Benepe told me the intention is to keep them in line with other city courses and not charge as premium. As Tom points out, we’ll have to wait and see."

http://out-and-back.net/?p=1290#comments

How could your three independent sources have such different information?
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Jay Flemma

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Re: Ferry Point(Nicklaus) in The Bronx, NY update
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2009, 08:54:23 PM »
Because they were from discussions last year.  FP has been out of the public eye for a while.  The WSJ story just broke. So obviously a lot happened since then.  Why not ask Steve Shaffer the same qs...after all, he said "The most expensive muni..."

Look, this thread is about FP, not me, so why don't we take our discussion off list and not hijack the thread?
« Last Edit: October 03, 2009, 08:56:34 PM by Jay Flemma »
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Matt_Ward

Re: Ferry Point(Nicklaus) in The Bronx, NY update
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2009, 09:03:18 PM »
Although I would love for Ferry Point to be equivalent to what is charged at the other NYC courses like LaTourette or Clearview or Marine Park, et al -- I was under the impression that the rates for the course would be higher in all classifications -- although NYC residents would not pay as much as non-residents.

Ferry Point would follow the lead set by Bethpage and what was done at the Black.

Mike S:

Just a quick FYI -- years ago there was talk on having a publci golf course at Liberty State Park -- not the site that Liberty National has but closer to the Science Center it met strong opposition and never took off because of concerns for access and a de facto private club developing only available for those with deep pockets.

I have seen the location for Ferry Point and it's quite appealing from a visual perspective.

We shall see as matters sort themselves out.
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Jaeger Kovich

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Re: Ferry Point(Nicklaus) in The Bronx, NY update
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2009, 09:06:38 PM »
I would love to see this place priced like Van Courtland / Split Rock and the rest of the NYC muni bunch. But at the end of the day, if it is more towards the Centennial or Hudson Hills I would understand, they are high, but not a fortune. Just anything but Pound Ridge pricing!

(I still cant see myself paying to play PR, an avg Dye course with huge prices... hopefully Ferry Point tries a different approach)


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Mike Sweeney

Re: Ferry Point(Nicklaus) in The Bronx, NY update
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2009, 09:07:27 PM »
Because they were from discussions last year.  FP has been out of the public eye for a while.  The WSJ story just broke. So obviously a lot happened since then.

Newport says "Other problems surfaced, too, goosing the overall cost of the project from an initial $22.4 million to nearly $100 million by October 2007.......The latest total cost estimate, including for the parks, is $123 million"

The problems with the remediation of the site has been well know for quite some time, so what is the new information?

Why not ask Steve Shaffer the same qs...after all, he said "The most expensive muni..."

Steve does not represent himself as a golf journalist with sources. He typically post links to interesting articles and occasionally list his own opinions.

Look, this thread is about FP, not me, so why don't we take our discussion off list and not hijack the thread?

Jay, I think you have gotten a bad rap around here on occasion but enough is enough. If you are going to make statements as a "journalist" be prepared to defend your findings. If you are stating opinion, then post away. Cheers.
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Jay Flemma

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Re: Ferry Point(Nicklaus) in The Bronx, NY update
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2009, 09:16:01 PM »
NO, Mike.  It is not opinion.  Those were other golf industry pros, and I am NOT identifying who said it.

You wrote:

"Newport says "Other problems surfaced, too, goosing the overall cost of the project from an initial $22.4 million to nearly $100 million by October 2007.......The latest total cost estimate, including for the parks, is $123 million"

And that is EXACTLY the same thing that happened at Pound Ridge and the owner, Wang said on opening day that huge increases in costs made him raise the price point to $235 from a planned rate of less than 1/2 that.

While we are on the subject of my "Bad rap," if people believe 1/2 the BS people spread around about people on this board, then they believe twice as much as might actually be true.

We all should do a better job of being courteous and respectful to each other, and grateful for this board.  A little more restraint will make the board a better place.  That is NOT a cut on you...one of the good guys...but a general observation.

« Last Edit: October 03, 2009, 11:02:43 PM by Jay Flemma »
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Steve Lang

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Re: Ferry Point(Nicklaus) in The Bronx, NY update
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2009, 09:33:55 PM »
 8) at Chambers Bay, the LOCALS GET A $50 BREAK $119 --> 69 WEEKDAYS, $139-->89 WEEKENDS

Any guess what would be the NYC resident rate?

Hard to believe these rates make for a sustainable golf course clientel.. harder to believe that the economic model of spending that much on a golf course can work, land fill or no landfill.

but then, things happen first in big cities
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Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Ferry Point(Nicklaus) in The Bronx, NY update
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2009, 11:57:18 PM »
Jay

I used the term "the most expensive muni" in the context of cost to build, not green fees. The article clearly states that fact.

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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Jay Flemma

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Re: Ferry Point(Nicklaus) in The Bronx, NY update
« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2009, 12:17:09 AM »
Ahhh...thanks for clarifying.

Playing near you soon.  Buzz me offlist for deets.
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