[Tom MacWood]

TEP
I don't recall that, I've always said I thought it was high. By the way Finegan did minimize Colt's contribution, and so have you over the years.

With my last comment I'm sure you are happy now, it will be the final nail in this Willie Park thread, and now we can proceed on to something very near and dear to your heart, that is PV and/or the amateur/sportsmen phenomenon....for the millionth time on GCA.

[TEPaul]

"TEP
I don't recall that, I've always said I thought it was high."


Well, there is one accurate way to find out and that would be to check what you actually did say on that issue. What you said is in the back pages of this website.  



"By the way Finegan did minimize Colt's contribution, and so have you over the years."


That may be your opinion, but I have never minmized (or maximized) Colt's contribution. And I have also been well aware over the last thirty years how various members of PV and others viewed what Colt did and what Colt didn't do and it would be an understatment to say it was all over the place (some members thought Colt didn't do much and others thought he routed and designed the entire course because they were aware that so-called Colt notebook had always been in the PV archives despite the fact that only a few people over the years ever saw it and less actually ever spent the time analyzing it against what was actually designed and built at PV. The other problem over the years is no one had bothered to analyze that "blue/Red line" topo as to what the blue and red lines meant, who did them and particularly when). Matter of fact, I believe given the essential "Rosetta Stone" and timelining analysis of that so-called "Blue/Red line" topo, and a topo done before Colt arrived as well as all the rest of the evolutionary facts and instances included in the archives of PV of the design and creation of PV (including Tillinghast's continuous written recollections along the way) as well as those "Remembrances" of Smith and Carr, what Colt did in detail and when and what Crump did in detail and when is now pretty much completely known and known in real detail!

And yes, it is true, that Jim Finegan did make one truly misleading assumption regarding Colt in his history book (that had to do with that so-called "Blue/Red line" topo survey map (which Crump continued to work on for years)). When I finally pointed out to him after his history book was finished and in circulation what that misleading assumption he made was, his only comment was simply: "Oh My God, NOW you tell me!"  

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
You must have added the second part of your post later.

I think it is unfair and inaccurate to say Colt was engaged for one week of work. We don't know exactly what Colt was contracted to do. The finished plans came weeks or months after his visit, and apparently Crump and Colt were in communication afterwards, and Alison was called in after the War to finish the course. All that being said the figure seems high to me. At the peak of his career in 1928 MacKenzie charged $10,000 for the design and construction of 36 holes.

[Niall C]

Tom Mac

$10K ? Presumably that was not a design and supervision fee ? Maybe I'm getting confused with the difference in currency between UK and US but that seems very high.

Niall

[TEPaul]

"I think it is unfair and inaccurate to say Colt was engaged for one week of work. We don't know exactly what Colt was contracted to do. The finished plans came weeks or months after his visit, and apparently Crump and Colt were in communication afterwards, and Alison was called in after the War to finish the course. All that being said the figure seems high to me. At the peak of his career in 1928 MacKenzie charged $10,000 for the design and construction of 36 holes."





I would very much caution your use of the word "we" when considering what is known about the architectural design and evolution of Pine Valley. I'm not sure what you think you know but once again, I wouldn't put too much stock in anyone's opinion who has never even been to Pine Valley and has never looked through its archives and all the so-called "assets" within it.

Colt was only AT Pine Valley for a week or a little more in May/June 1913. That is known. And from that week he did leave (or sent back) that so-called hole by hole notebook which has always been in PV archives. Most interestingly that whole course map we bought off of Ebay a few years ago was essentially a whole course map of Colt's hole by hole notebook and that map was dated July, 1913. It is not necessarily a certainty that Colt actually did that whole course map himself----eg a surveyor or someone else certainly could have done it off that hole by hole notebook he probably left at PV after his one and only visit in May/June 1913.

But regardless of any of that one only has to compare what was already done before Colt ever arrived against what he provided when there as well as what was done by others and obviously by mostly Crump after Colt left against what he provided when he was there. That is a pretty clean "timelining" structure to be honest. Had Colt come back a number of times over the years of course the analysis would be far more problematic and difficult as it would have been problematic and difficult to analyze if he provided other design material other over the years of design and construction than what the club has. But according to those who were closest to Crump in the ensuing years (after Colt left and never returned) when he and Govan (and others) did many other things there was no further contribution to the design and construction from Colt.

What Alison provided in 1921 after Crump died (1918) is an entirely different and separate matter and now that is far better known than it ever has been before. The same goes for the Wilson brothers, Flynn and Perry Maxwell after Crump died, and even such as W.C. Fownes.

The greatest previously misunderstood or previously unknown contribution to the creation of Pine Valley was perhaps that of Crump's longtime professional, clubmaker and constant construction foreman Jim Govan with whom Crump did constant shot-testing over the years of the course's design and construction evolution. But that now is also far better known than it ever has been before.

[TEPaul]

Niall:

That story that Crump paid Colt $10,000 for his approximately one week of work at PV in 1913 has always been suspect and the first mention of it came in 1950 almost forty years after the fact.

We will probably never know what the truth is about it but it would not surprise me if that figure was not confused with perhaps what Colt earned during his entire visit over here in 1913 or at least what he did when in the general area of Pine Valley which was certainly more than just PV. It is known that he was also called down to the Seaview project around the same time in 1913. And we surely do know that Clarence Geist (the owner of Seaview) was the type of man who did not mind spending money pretty liberally and said so. I'm sure most of us who study this stuff are well aware that during this era the sort of bragging about how much numerous projects cost or would cost was a very prevalent thing that was prevalently reported in many of the newspapers and periodicals of that time.

I also have no doubt that Colt and Merion's Hugh Wilson got together during that time in 1913 he was in the area (apparently at both Seaview and Merion). The reason I pretty much know that is from a letter from Colt to Wilson from the early 1920s and something in it Colt mentioned about Mrs Colt and Mrs Wilson. It is also interesting in that particular letter that Colt mentioned to Wilson that he had moved and that he thought Wilson would approve of his new place which pretty much indicates Wilson probably stayed with Colt during his trip abroad between March and May of 1912.

[Tom MacWood]

The source of the info was Colonel Baker who was in eighties - he was probably confused about the amount, among other things.

[TEPaul]

"The source of the info was Colonel Baker who was in eighties - he was probably confused about the amount, among other things."


That is what Jim Finegan first reported in his Pine Valley history book and what I tended to agree with some years ago. My recollection is that a few on here essentially took that point to mean that Pine Valley and some of its friends were continuing to minimize and dismiss Colt's contributions to PV to glorify Crump's. Again, it is all in the back pages on those PV threads from some years ago.  

My recollection is that you, Tom MacWood, and Paul Turner were the most vociferous on that point but perhaps I'm wrong about that. Or perhaps you too are beginning to sell out or change your "principals" on this subject!

Are you now suggesting that perhaps you have actually learned something about Pine Valley from someone else such as the club did not always try to minimize Colt to glorify Crump as you continuously suggested they did?

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