[Ben Stephens]

Dear Rich,

My dad has a friend who is a member at Pyle and Kenfig - I will see if we can get a good deal if South Wales is the confirmed venue of BUDA 2010 - P+K is definitely a great course maybe lesser known due to having Porthcawl as its neighbour it was used for the Home Internationals a few years back. The front nine has a great set of Colt greens - and the back nine is a Mackenzie Ross with a couple of blind shots! - we could maybe play more than 18 holes by playing the inner holes of the back nine. If its September maybe we could add watching a rugby match as part of the itinerary! There are rugby mad folks in South Wales! you are more likely to find a rugby pitch in every village!

Ben

[Rich Goodale]

Thanks, Ben

I haven't played P&K (nor Porthcawl) but have done Southerndown which I found to be an excellent course.  My personal feeling is that we should strive at BUDAs to have a solid 3 days at the central venue (or two nearly adjacent venues such as Sandwich and Deal) and encourage informal play at other nearby venues either before or after the main event.  Of course, if South Wales is chosen, it will up to the organiser(s) to decide on the schedule.  BTW, I'm sure if you wanted to organise a smaller gathering at P&K over the next 6 months you could get some eager participants off of this forum!

Some other thoughts/questions on other comments above:

1.  What do people think about days of the week to be played?  Weekends will always be a problem, although less of so if we do a late-May time when there is near maximum liight in the day (15 hours in Wales, 17 in Scotland).
2.  In terms of timing (and assuming a May date) are there any preferences for any particular week.
3.  Vis a vis foursomes, I think it is a good idea to have it for only one of the 5 matches over the 3 days, even though we have done 2 in most BUDAs, partly in homage to the Ryder Cup format, partly in homage to some of the clubs who have hosted us who like the format (e.g. Deal, Littlestone, Elie), and partly because it is a somewhat restful oasis in the Bataan Death March that these events can otherwise turn into for those of us who are advanced in years and or wisdom.  As to Ulrich's point, honest people can disagree.
4.  I'll try to mentally gather up all the good ideas from this thread early next week and arrange a convening of the Grand Committee soon thereafter.  Expect some sort of decision/suggestion in the next 10-days or so.

Rich

[Andrew Mitchell]

Thanks, Ben

I haven't played P&K (nor Porthcawl) but have done Southerndown which I found to be an excellent course.  My personal feeling is that we should strive at BUDAs to have a solid 3 days at the central venue (or two nearly adjacent venues such as Sandwich and Deal) and encourage informal play at other nearby venues either before or after the main event.  Of course, if South Wales is chosen, it will up to the organiser(s) to decide on the schedule.  BTW, I'm sure if you wanted to organise a smaller gathering at P&K over the next 6 months you could get some eager participants off of this forum!

Some other thoughts/questions on other comments above:

1.  What do people think about days of the week to be played?  Weekends will always be a problem, although less of so if we do a late-May time when there is near maximum liight in the day (15 hours in Wales, 17 in Scotland).
2.  In terms of timing (and assuming a May date) are there any preferences for any particular week.
3.  Vis a vis foursomes, I think it is a good idea to have it for only one of the 5 matches over the 3 days, even though we have done 2 in most BUDAs, partly in homage to the Ryder Cup format, partly in homage to some of the clubs who have hosted us who like the format (e.g. Deal, Littlestone, Elie), and partly because it is a somewhat restful oasis in the Bataan Death March that these events can otherwise turn into for those of us who are advanced in years and or wisdom.  As to Ulrich's point, honest people can disagree.
4.  I'll try to mentally gather up all the good ideas from this thread early next week and arrange a convening of the Grand Committee soon thereafter.  Expect some sort of decision/suggestion in the next 10-days or so.

Rich

Rich
I think Buda works extremely well as a three day event with two days at a main venue and one day at the second venue and personally I wouldn't change that.  Other courses can then be added as pre/post Buda rounds.

Responding to your thoughts/questions:
1.  I don't have any strong feelings vis-a-vis weekends/weekdays other than the likely difficulty of getting sufficient visitors tee times to play 36 holes at a weekend, given that on most UK courses Saturday is gents competition day.  To me 36 holes a day on at least one (ideally two) of the days is an essential part of Buda.
2.  I'm pretty easy regarding particular weeks in May but would suggest mid to late May to benefit from the extending light in the evenings.
3.  Again I think foursomes on at least one of the days is an essential part of Buda.  I couldn't understand any of the complaints this year as Mark C had set out the golfing format months in advance.  I'm sorry Ulrich but I can't agree with you - walking ahead is far more sensible.  It gets you round quicker (if you've been out for four hours in the morning fourballs you don't need another four hour round) and it enables you to ball spot the drives.
4. Your time scale for reaching a decision sounds good to me.

[Brent Hutto]

I have no idea at this point whether I'll be at liberty for a UK trip in 2010 but I'll give my answers anyway...

1.  What do people think about days of the week to be played?  Weekends will always be a problem, although less of so if we do a late-May time when there is near maximum liight in the day (15 hours in Wales, 17 in Scotland).

Days of the week don't matter much, whenever we can have maximum access to the course(s) with minimum impact on the membership is fine. If I cross an ocean, I'm staying for 8-9 days no matter what so 'most any 3-day period is fine.

2.  In terms of timing (and assuming a May date) are there any preferences for any particular week.

I like as much daylight as possible, that's half the fun of a UK trip in summer. So late in May for both daylight and weather seems best, the later the better. Keeping it in May, not spilling into June, makes a major (like 40%) difference in advance-purchase coach airfare so my own ideal would something like May 25-26-27 give or take a few days.

3.  Vis a vis foursomes, I think it is a good idea to have it for only one of the 5 matches over the 3 days, even though we have done 2 in most BUDAs, partly in homage to the Ryder Cup format, partly in homage to some of the clubs who have hosted us who like the format (e.g. Deal, Littlestone, Elie), and partly because it is a somewhat restful oasis in the Bataan Death March that these events can otherwise turn into for those of us who are advanced in years and or wisdom.  As to Ulrich's point, honest people can disagree.

I love foursomes. That said, one round out of four or five is about right. For me it's an enjoyable novelty but one time per trip is fine and two times in three days is an absolute maximum. And I also prefer it as a "second round" in a day also containing a singles or fourball match. But at least one round of foursomes is an absolute requirement at these things, in my opinion.

4.  I'll try to mentally gather up all the good ideas from this thread early next week and arrange a convening of the Grand Committee soon thereafter.  Expect some sort of decision/suggestion in the next 10-days or so.

It's wonderful to see this being discussed this far in advance. FWIW this maybe, maybe not participant would prefer Pennard and Dornoch (in that order) with inland courses in the south of England a distant third and Continental golf not attractive at all. I would be about a 50/50 likelihood of a May or June trip and almost zero chance of doing it in September (not withstanding my wonderful Buda experience in September 2007). If it were Pennard the last week of May I would do everything in my power to attend, that is a very, very attractive option.

[Mark Pearce]

Rich,

As the father of school age girls you will already, no doubt, have in mind the desirability of avoiding half term week, which is, I think, normally the last week of May.

Mark

[Ulrich Mayring]

I also quite like foursomes, but do not see the need for 2.5 hour rounds. Especially on 36 hole days I would be perfectly happy with a more leisurely pace in the afternoon, such as 3.5 hours. And I am saying that as the only participant at this year's BUDA, who went out for a second 18 on the last day ;-)

Another disadvantage of walking ahead is that on every second hole I cannot take pictures from the tee. And the foursomes round may just be the one with the best lighting conditions.

These are, obviously, all highly personal reasons and naturally BUDA can never be everything to everyone. But I believe it's a good idea to put out those personal reasons, such as Tiger Bernhardt did, and then leave it up to the organisers whether to consider them or not.

Ulrich

[Sean_A]

Ulrich

If there is no particular hurry, the afternoon rounds could be greensomes.  I think its a better game anyhow (even better than betterball), but it takes longer than 4somes.  In any case, it would be good to try greensomes once to see what people think. 

Ciao

[Bill_McBride]

Ulrich

If there is no particular hurry, the afternoon rounds could be greensomes.  I think its a better game anyhow (even better than betterball), but it takes longer than 4somes.  In any case, it would be good to try greensomes once to see what people think. 

Ciao

Sean, is that what Nick Leefe refers to as a "Pinehurst?"

[Ben Stephens]

Rich,

I'd probably agree with you on the central venue issue - up the road from Pennard is Clyne Golf Club - a Harry Colt course on Clyne Common - looks like heather/moorland type course Ive heard that's its quite good - but await Sean's opinion. I could organise an extra 2 days combining Porthcawl and P+K for other GCA'ers if they are staying for longer.

Cheers

Ben

[Mark Pearce]

Ulrich,  That last part isn't true.  Tony Muldoon, Craig Disher, Mike Whitaker and I also went back out after lunch and played another 18.  It was quite dark going down 18, I will admit.  Also, if the foursome round is one of two afternoons played at the main host course, you get an opportunity to take those tee shot photos.  Anyway, BUDA is about the cameraderie and the golf, photos are a (valuable) add on.

Bill,

I think a Pinehurst is a further variant of a Greensome, at least at Elie.  There a Pinehurst has both players in a pair play a tee shot.  Each then plays a second shot with their partner's ball.  They then elect between the two balls and play alternate shot with the player who hit the tee shot with the selected ball playing the third shot.

I think Greensomes is my second least favourite golfing format, after Texas Scramble.

[mike_malone]

 I  was driving as Sean and I went by Clyne . I believe he said he has yet to play it. This would lead to my view that Mumbles could be home base versus Swansea. I was intimidated by the youth of Swansea.

    I think Royal Porthcawl could be a candidate for the Littlestone spot of this year---playing against members. After I played there all by myself, but after a friendly conversation with the secretary, I encountered a bunch of members in the clubhouse who were more than happy to engage in a conversation about their course. They even agreed with my comments that more fairway is needed around the bunkers. They welcomed me back for a future round. Sean is not as fond of the course as others , but I thought the set of par fours was on par with the best I have played.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Ulrich,  That last part isn't true.  Tony Muldoon, Craig Disher, Mike Whitaker and I also went back out after lunch and played another 18.  It was quite dark going down 18, I will admit, but that didn't stop Tony getting his 4. 

Mark I've edited the above sentence as somehow you left out an important fact 


Gents if I can come, wherever, I will.

I thnk the ingredients for a BUDA have all been laid on the table and it's up to each years Master Chief (sic) to stir the pot as they so please.

[Bill_McBride]

Ulrich,  That last part isn't true.  Tony Muldoon, Craig Disher, Mike Whitaker and I also went back out after lunch and played another 18.  It was quite dark going down 18, I will admit.  Also, if the foursome round is one of two afternoons played at the main host course, you get an opportunity to take those tee shot photos.  Anyway, BUDA is about the cameraderie and the golf, photos are a (valuable) add on.

Bill,

I think a Pinehurst is a further variant of a Greensome, at least at Elie.  There a Pinehurst has both players in a pair play a tee shot.  Each then plays a second shot with their partner's ball.  They then elect between the two balls and play alternate shot with the player who hit the tee shot with the selected ball playing the third shot.

I think Greensomes is my second least favourite golfing format, after Texas Scramble.

The Pinehurst is the format that you outline above.  My wife and I had quite a good match at Alwoodley against Nick and his wife in 2005 en route to the Open at St Andrews.    It is a good format.  Like you I detest Texas Scrambles, but Joe Buehler and I are playing in oine Friday, a business thing.   

[Tom Dunne]

P&K rose two notches in my estimation when I played it again last month. They've been doing this sand-injection process (this is how it was described to me) on the front nine to get it playing much linksier. Surprise, surprise, it works. The back nine at P&K is famous, but there are some really good holes on the front--they'd just been hidden under parkland-like conditioning. The new pro and next year's club captain are father and son and they are both people who "get it". This is a welcoming club, so Ben Stephens's offer should not be passed over too quickly.

Clyne is an interesting side trip for those who want to see what real rustic Welsh golf is all about. The fairways are some of the most rutted I've ever seen--you simply will not get a flat lie here. I don't think the course has quite enough architectural interest for this crowd, though.

In south Wales, the four to see are:

Pennard
Porthcawl
Southerndown
P&K

in that order.  

[Sean_A]

Tom

Yes, P&K gets slighted because of the front 9, but there are some very good holes on that side.  Of course Doak did it no favours with his "completely forgettable" comments.

All

I have been contacted by TMBFiG.  It would seem he would consider attending a Pennard Buda in September.  That combined with some decent support for Pennard has encouraged me to take a view.  I know Pennard is planning some Ryder Cup events for a few weeks leading up to the event, but I am not sure how intrusive these will be on scheduling golf.  I will make enquiries and report back in due course.

Ciao     

[Michael Whitaker]

TMBFiG?

[Craig Disher]

The Most Beloved Figure in Golf

[Scott Warren]

That would be pretty cool.

[Michael Whitaker]

I guess he's worried about a May Buda conflicting with his Old Macdonald trip.

[Scott Warren]

I also quite like foursomes, but do not see the need for 2.5 hour rounds. Especially on 36 hole days I would be perfectly happy with a more leisurely pace in the afternoon, such as 3.5 hours.

If we'd played a more leisurely 3.5hr round in the afternoon at George's we'd have only got 12 or 13 holes in.

[Mark Chaplin]

For those still unsure why the format at BUDA was as we experienced;

RStG - we could have played 2,3 or 4 ball p.m. 12 tee times in 2 ball would have taken over an hour so the last people would have teed off at 4.30 and played 9 holes. 4ball took 4.5 hours in the morning and we teed off at 3.20 so again 9 holes.

RCP - ladies on Wednesday and afternoon roll up mean no group bookings are taken at the club all day. Therefore we couldn't pre-book 12 afternoon tee times as that closes the course to members for an hour.

 

[Cristian]

The Most Beloved Figure in Golf

Nathalie Gulbis to Pennard?

[Ben Stephens]

Tom Dunne,

I had always thought that the front nine at P+K always played linksy and was confused why not many rated it. Thanks for letting me know that it used to play almost parkland style. Those Colt greens on the front nine are much better than Mackenzie Ross' greens on the back nine.

There has been some in house work on the back nine that has reduced the quality of the design noably the 3 bunkers at the rear of the 14th green and the realignment of the 18th fairway and new bunkers do not blend in very well + design/built by 'amateurs'. There is more potential at P+K to make it an even greater course!

BUDA Commitee

Would be happy to play Southerndown, Pennard, RP + P+K anyday and agree that Pennard should be central venue.

Has anyone heard of Ashburnham and Tenby - just further east.

Ben

[Scott Warren]

The only thing that slows me up with a Pennard-based Buda is the distance between Pennard and Porthcawl. Or is the idea to play all three days at Pennard?

For the time and financial investment, I'm not sure I'd be into playing all three days on the same course.

Ashburnham looks alright, though it is - according to Google Maps - just as long a drive from Pennard as Porthcawl is.

P+K hasn't really stood out as one I want to see since David Worley described it in Journey Through The Links as "the most disappointing of the 97 courses I played on that trip".

[Sean_A]

The only thing that slows me up with a Pennard-based Buda is the distance between Pennard and Porthcawl. Or is the idea to play all three days at Pennard?

For the time and financial investment, I'm not sure I'd be into playing all three days on the same course.

Ashburnham looks alright, though it is - according to Google Maps - just as long a drive from Pennard as Porthcawl is.

P+K hasn't really stood out as one I want to see since David Worley described it in Journey Through The Links as "the most disappointing of the 97 courses I played on that trip".

Scott

You have a point.  My goal would be to try and get Porthcawl on a Friday and Pennard for the weekend - its a long shot and I fear that for this lot of 36 holers each day getting an entire weekend (Friday - Sunday) will be nigh on impossible.  It is much more likely that I can come up with Pennard Saturday afternoon (which does allow guys to trave in from their side games), Pennard Sunday and Porthcawl Monday.  Though I would prefer Southerndown, I don't much see how Porthcawl can't be combined with this trip as so many like/want to see it. 

Ciao 

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