[Will Haskett]

I don't think it is too much to ask for sprinkler head markers or subtle 100, 150 and 200 markers (discs in fairways or on cart paths). I don't think golf was ever intended to be played where the player had to constantly guess his yardage.

Will,

I beg to differ.

Bob

Care to elaborate as to why, Bob? Watching golf played on the links courses overseas and one can't help but see the discs in the fairways that give basic yardages. I understand that technology did not allow for golfers in 1800's to know the precise distance, but if a masshie generally went a certain distance and a good player knew that distance and had a nibbler (?) in his hands, he would change.

Too bad we can't poll the golfers from 100 years ago.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Will

Golf is not about distance, it’s about hitting a small ball in the fewest strokes possible down a hole. You do not need distance information for that, your eyes tell you, you instinctively reach for the right club (for your game) and if required you can fall back upon the scorecard and Tee marker. Is that not enough outside information to enable you to sink the ball?

However, if you feel your game needs that extra assisted help, then the rules say OK to get outside help. Alas IMHO your game suffers and enjoyment is tempered because you had to get help - nevertheless that is your choice.
 
Melvyn 

PS Distance in markers and aids are a late 20th century requirement started when the modern golfers became soft and needed help with playing, walking reading a shot, selecting clubs, hitting a ball, putting and getting back to the clubhouse. The 19th century Golfers would I believe be most amused to see our efforts on a course. The word soft would I fear not be what they would say.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Although this is a much larger issue than yardage markers, they aren't a 20th century phenomenon, it started the first time that the yardage was indicated on a par 3 hole.

Soft goes way back.

[Mark McKeever]

Bob,

As a new member, that was a great read for me.  It is a well written piece and sums up "modern golf" very well.

Thanks for sharing,

Mark

[Melvyn Morrow]

Jim

Are you telling me that you need distance information for a Par 3 hole. That just looking you need distance to select your club. No, please NO.

Say no more

Melvyn

[Bob_Huntley]

I don't think it is too much to ask for sprinkler head markers or subtle 100, 150 and 200 markers (discs in fairways or on cart paths). I don't think golf was ever intended to be played where the player had to constantly guess his yardage.

Will,

I beg to differ.

Bob

Care to elaborate as to why, Bob? Watching golf played on the links courses overseas and one can't help but see the discs in the fairways that give basic yardages. I understand that technology did not allow for golfers in 1800's to know the precise distance, but if a masshie generally went a certain distance and a good player knew that distance and had a nibbler (?) in his hands, he would change.

Too bad we can't poll the golfers from 100 years ago.

Will,

I grew up up in sports mad environment. Not wishing to concentrate on one particular activity i participated in just about any game that was available. Football, both Association and Rugby, Cricket, Squash, Water Polo, Swimming, Boxing and even Mixed Field Hockey. When throwing a ball my eyes told me how hard to throw and on which trajectory. I guess I carried that over into the golf game.

As Melvyn points out, the eyes have it. We have yardages on sprinklers giving the distance to the front, center and back of the greens. When it is indicated that it is but 140 yds, I think, oh  an 8 iron. My eyes tell me a very different story and reveal the sorry truth that I had better hit a six.

Bob

[Jim_Kennedy]

Melyvn,
I played in a four man yesterday and one member of our team had a laser range finder. When he'd ask me if I wanted the yardage I'd say sure, and then tell him what i thought it was. My worst was 11 yards off, once, and my best was exactly on, several times, with lots of 2s and 3s and some 6s and 7s. I would say that an error of 5 yards was average. 

I wasn't trying to make this personal big fella, but it's utterly unbelieveable to hear that the treachery of knowing one's yardages is some modern invention, the first time a yardage sign was put on a par 3 hole the game was afoot. That didn't happen yesterday.

MC's article is a good one, with some points that should be heard. I just don't think we got to where he says we did overnight.

[Will Haskett]

I guess we will agree to disagree on this subject. I feel like yardage has not made the modern golfer soft. There are certainly other aspects, but having a yardage, in my opinion is important.

And the comparison to other sports just doesn't cut it for me. As an avid tennis, baseball and basketball player growing up, all of those sports offered "cheats" when it came to judging distance. In basketball, a free throw is always 15 feet away, and the 3-point shot had a line indicating it. When you went to shoot, you knew your distance away from the basket sometimes more because of where you were in relation to those lines on the court. Sure, feel is involved, but I get a great visual aid from the directional lines on the court. Tennis is the same based on where you are in relation to the baseline or service line. Certainly, there is no time for calculation (like in golf), but it certainly isn't a blank canvas where your depth-perception is the only thing being used.

This subject has me thinking about my round at Arcadia Bluffs, where the flagsticks are shorter than average. Every shot (to my eyes) looked 20-25 yards longer because of the stick. If I had gone on instinct, it would've taken me almost a whole round to adjust. Trusting the yardages provided was the only way to hit a successful shot. I don't know if that makes me "soft" but it certainly allowed me to play golf to my ability.

[Garland Bayley]

...When you went to shoot, you knew your distance away from the basket sometimes more because of where you were in relation to those lines on the court. Sure, feel is involved, but I get a great visual aid from the directional lines on the court. ...

If you really used those lines to measure distance, then you must have shot about 5% from the field!

Do you step off every putt to know how hard to strike it? If not with your claimed need for measurements, then you must be a horrible lag putter.

[Will Haskett]

...When you went to shoot, you knew your distance away from the basket sometimes more because of where you were in relation to those lines on the court. Sure, feel is involved, but I get a great visual aid from the directional lines on the court. ...

If you really used those lines to measure distance, then you must have shot about 5% from the field!

Do you step off every putt to know how hard to strike it? If not with your claimed need for measurements, then you must be a horrible lag putter.

I think you're taking this a bit too far. In my basketball reference, it certainly is true and you can ask any serious player. Most shooters have a very routine shot, and from certain distances it is certainly a repetitive feel. If you step one foot behind the three-point line, you know that you have to give your normal three-point shot a little more power. If that line was not there at all, I almost guarantee you that the shooting percentage would be less.

Obviously every sport (including golf) has some depth perception and you rely on your eyes and instincts. But, to argue that golf should not have distances because it has weakened the sport (as compared to other sports) simply doesn't cut it for me.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Will

You are only cheating yourself of fun, enjoyment and most of all achieving the score on the results of your own efforts, not relying on some toy or marker to help.

You don’t need markers/aids its within you already, as Bob was saying trust yourself, just need practice to train the eyes.

Don’t be a distance junky

Melvyn

[Garland Bayley]

... If that line was not there at all, I almost guarantee you that the shooting percentage would be less.
...

I absolutely guarantee that thinking about position with relation to a marker on the basket ball court will lower your shooting percentage.
I think if MJ happened across this thread, he would be having a very good laugh on you.

[Will Haskett]

Will

You are only cheating yourself of fun, enjoyment and most of all achieving the score on the results of your own efforts, not relying on some toy or marker to help.

You don’t need markers/aids its within you already, as Bob was saying trust yourself, just need practice to train the eyes.

Don’t be a distance junky

Melvyn

Let's be clear... I don't use a SkyCaddy or enjoy GPS when available because I don't think we need that much information. But a simple distance to the middle of the green would be nice. It's still up to me to gauge where the pin is and what I need to carry to hit a good shot. I actually find the game to be more enjoyable when I hit the ball the distance I intended.

In all sports (including golf), using your eyes is a part of it, but there is a limit to it. That's why it is much easier for all of us to control the speed on a 10-footer as compared with a 50-footer. Golf deals with distances that are longer than most, so getting a little assistance shouldn't be grounds for dismissing the modern golfer as being softer.

If this makes me a "soft" player, that's too bad, but if we are looking at the origins of the sport as a mark for where we are today, aren't we all incredibly soft players? Because we don't play 22 holes or 26 holes, or many of the original sizes for some legendary courses, or we don't use clubs all made from one piece of material, namely a stick of wood. For that matter, wouldn't golf shoes, gloves, tees and repair tools all be characteristics of the "softening" of the game.

There is no way to really answer this question. I guess it is all personal preference.

[Will Haskett]

... If that line was not there at all, I almost guarantee you that the shooting percentage would be less.
...

I absolutely guarantee that thinking about position with relation to a marker on the basket ball court will lower your shooting percentage.
I think if MJ happened across this thread, he would be having a very good laugh on you.

Bayley, I was making an exaggerated example to show that there are guides. Having been around the sport very closely, I can tell you that the line plays a part. Shooting drills are geared towards spots on the floor. So a good outside shooter will take countless shots from 19'9" in college. That motion becomes very routine. If that players steps in a foot, or back a foot, he knows that a minor adjustment needs to be made. If you ran that player out and had him shoot the same shot on an unmarked floor, the result would be different. Now, after one shot, an adjustment can be made and a rythym established.

As a comparison to golf (and this discussion), one shot is the key. You don't get a second opportunity.

[Mike Wagner]

Rob,

Wish I could have been there!  Looking forward to a November round at Chambers for sure.  The midwest weather is quickly becoming the midworst!

[George Pazin]

Are golfers soft today?  Yes, we all are, but the important question to ask is if we are willing to slum it and play in conditions that Pennard offers on a daily basis?  I think most GCAers would say no thank you and that is the bottom line.  No matter what is the cutoff point for acceptable conditions is, there are very few golfers who WANT to slum it.  This makes it ever so hard to blame the "industry" because it is apparent it delivers what golfers want.

Ciao

Be careful when you use the word "all".

 

[Sean_A]

Are golfers soft today?  Yes, we all are, but the important question to ask is if we are willing to slum it and play in conditions that Pennard offers on a daily basis?  I think most GCAers would say no thank you and that is the bottom line.  No matter what is the cutoff point for acceptable conditions is, there are very few golfers who WANT to slum it.  This makes it ever so hard to blame the "industry" because it is apparent it delivers what golfers want.

Ciao

Be careful when you use the word "all".

 

George


Think about it.  If you ahve time and money to play golf you are soft and long may it be so.

Ciao

[George Pazin]

Sean, increasingly I have neither...

Doesn't matter to me right now, might in a few years.

Mike's words reminds me of a truism among economists: People respond to incentives.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Dave,
I'd agree that it could be some related ability but I think you just trained yourself, as you trained your eyes for distance, to be aware of the signals that tell you the time.

I believe golf is more fun and more rewarding when you learn by the doing, but for some reason I just can't bring myself to blame anyone who uses aids in the game. So many of those folks, I might even say a majority, are recreational players and it doesn't harm me in any way.

[Michael Huber]

I don't know if anyone of you are watching the "National Parks: America's Best Idea" series on PBS, but it made me think of this thread.

There was some footage of two guys floating down the Colorado River in a really rough part of the Grand Canyon on a wooden boat, two oars, and that was it.  Obviously these days boats and equipment are just a hair safer and studier.  I'm sure those guys in their wooden boat would laugh at rafters wearing helmets and life vests.  I suppose rafting is no different than golf.

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