[Patrick_Mucci]

Golf is a game of talent, judgement, power and finesse.

Some golfers have an abundance of the above, other golfers aspire to gain a semblance of the above.

Each of the above blend to create the collective that creates a comfort zone when it comes to playing a golf course.

What is the general membership comfort zone when it comes to yardage, contour/slope of the greens, hazards and speed of the greens ?

What's your comfort zone ?

While weather and conditions create numerous variables, assume for the sake of these questions, that conditions aren't soggy, and that the climate is moderate/benign.  Also, assume par 72.

Looking at the courses I enjoy, yardages from 6,400 to 7,000 seem ideal, as do green speeds of 9-11, almost irrespective of the contouring/slope.  As to water hazards, I can tolerate anything that's not goofy or over the top.

However, the overriding consideration for me, IS ......... width.

With ample width, all of the other factors I've listed seem secondary.

I can tolerate greens with more contour/slope, with speeds at 9-11, with bunkers galore.
I may struggle from time to time, but, the overall challenge remains enjoyable.

It's only when I'm really squeezed off the tee, with serious consequences for an errant drive that I get uncomfortable, and, I consider myself a decent to very good driver.

What architectural feature/s or configuration/s takes you out of your comfort zone ?

Name the course that does this to you.

Since architects must forge a disinterested challenge for all levels of golfers, isn't width, or perceived width, the greatest architectural asset for a GCA ?

[Roger Wolfe]

Wind and bright sunshine gleaming off water hazards.  Courses in Florida get to me on windy days.  The Ocean Course drives me so crazy that by the time i reach 12 I am a mess.  I can take narrow fairways and trees (Mt Mitchell in NC), but those cookie cutter Florida courses with the ever present wind and brightness just make me uncomfortable.

Great post Mucc.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Interesting, and to me, a timely question. I returned from Firekeeper yesterday.  When on site, I noticed that the client had directed a few grass bunkers be shallowed up.  Obviously, in his view, their typical future customer would be troubled by that depth challenge and he felt some areas of the course were getting too difficult........or he knows that "average golfers want to see out of bunkers."

I know that statistically, the average player prefers:

Courses about 6300-6500 yards.  Although back tees are merely a rumor to them, for some reason, they like tees behind them where the total course yardage starts with a "7"

The OVERRIDING feature they hate most is lost balls, which indicates reduced heavy woods, long grass and water hazards of most types, with ponds being worse than creeks (more surface area for a wayward shot to hit!) 

I agree with the 9 green speed, maybe 10, not 11.  Admittedly, that is from as much personal experience as research, and geared to public courses rather than ultra exclusive private clubs. 

From complaints, however, I can tell you that golfers prefer gentle roll on greens to anything really wild, or anything really flat.  And, the faster the greens, the flatter the definition of "gently rolling."

Width in the fw is nice, but width of a frontal opening to most greens is more important.

Trees are always appreciated by average golfers because they are "purty."  Ditto the cart girls!

Golfers often express a sense of comfort when playing a shot into a valley.  I don't think they necessarily understand the containment effect.  Years ago here, Tom MacWood explained the "prospect/refuge" concept of human comfort, which I think is correct explanation for this comfort level.

[Jason Topp]

OB tight right takes me out of my comfort zone when my swing is iffy.


I once played Tobacco Road and Southern Pines on back to back days.

Tobacco Road looked uncomfortable because of the wild out of play areas, forced carries and blindness.  Southern Pines felt very comfortable because of wide fairways, relatively few hazards that impose penalties and relatively few trees that actually come into play.

Our foursome (handicaps ranging from 8 to 19) scored a lot better at Tobacco Road from relatively similar distances.  I think the differece had to do with the concave nature of the fairways and greens at Tobacco Road vs. the convex nature of the greens at Southern Pines.

Two totally different golf experiences.  I prefer Southern Pines for daily play but probably prefer Tobacco Road as a destination.

[Jay Kirkpatrick]

Nothing gets me out of my comfort zone quicker than REALLY fast greens.  I just get way too tentative on them and feel like I have to hit every shot close to the hole to make pars.

[Brent Hutto]

On a typical Southeastern USA course (which is what I'm most familiar with) I like a total length of maybe 6,200-6,300 yards and anything over about 6,500 is out of my comfort zone. Shorter than 6,200 is fine, though.

If the rough is Bermuda grass it should be no longer than about an inch to an inch and a half, depending on how thick and juicy it is. Roughs of northern grasses can be longer but when they get deep enough that searching for balls just a few yards off the fairway slow down play that's a bother.

Greens can be as contoured as the builder wants to make them. As long as a stationary ball will sit still on the green in the vicinity of the hole location (given the day's wind velocity) I'm comfortable.

Firm sand is my comfort zone in bunkers, if it's fluffy enough that you sink to the top of the you shoes when walking into the bunker that's bullshit IMO. Hardpan sand in bunkers and/or wet, packed sand bothers me not at all.

Hazards that are lateral can be used as liberally as required by the property although a steady diet of both sides of narrow fairways having hazards gets uncomfortable. Carry hazards (yellow staked) should be used more sparingly and I hate, hate, hate carry hazards where the layup zone short of the hazard is wet with thin grass. God I hate hitting shots over water from a bare wet lie.

Out of bounds can easily take me out of my comfort zone although if it's one-sided and the penalty for bailing out away from OB is just rough or trees I'm fine with that. Houses or other easily damaged off-course property hard by the corridors of play are the single most "out of my comfort zone" feature that a course can have. More than a hole or two of that makes for a course I will not play very often, if at all.

Finally, wind does not affect my comfort level but if it's going to be generally windy then firm fairways and greens are at a premium. Playing on a soft course is not that big a disappointment normally but in a good, stiff breeze the movement of the ball across the ground (due to the the wind) is a big thrill that's wasted if the course is too soft.

[Peter Pallotta]

Patrick - a question:

what is it about courses over 7,000 that take you out of your comfort zone? Is it partly the fact that you would be hitting long irons into greens that are not designed to accept those shots? (Much like players such as Tom Watson, Ben Crenshaw, Nick Price and Gary Player talk about the modern Augusta National?) And if so, do you find that certain features/lack of features on or around the greens can mitigate that uncomfortableness - can open fronts to greens, and back to front tilts, make it easier for you to stay in the comfort zone despite the extra long yardage?

I ask because I assume that, unlike most average golfers, you have no fear of -- or trouble with -- actually hitting a long iron, but that you can't consistently score as well if you have to hit long irons/fairway woods into most of the par 4s.

Thanks
Peter

[JESII]

"what is it about courses over 7,000 that take you out of your comfort zone?"

He's more likely to forget where he is and just wander off...

[Chris_Clouser]

I'm in the camp of golfer that likes the course around 6500 yards.  That seems to work best with my game, primarily the length I hit it off the tee.  The bunkers seem to be at the right length that they present a strategic challenge.  I can choose to not play over them and have a harder shot into the green or attempt the carry and be rewarded.  I can play from the longer tees, but the game gets a little more boring as it seems I'm just playing the middle of the course all the way around.

At the green end, as long as there is a place to miss I'm ok.  It doesn't necessarily have to be right in front of the green.  To one side or the other is fine but it still requires me to make a very good shot along the way to save par.  Having short recoveries into greens without a chance to bounce it in is something that makes me uncomfortable.  The Lob Wedge is not my friend. 

The greens for some reason I do much better the more internal contour they have.  I am pretty good at reading the lines on most putts, I just have problems with speed.  The thing that makes me the most uncomfortable are greens that have extreme shelves on them.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Pat - interesting post.  I had the chance to play SFGC the other day, and with its feeling of width on many tee shots it is an easy place for a crooked driver like myself to feel comfortable.  Holes like 1, 3, 5, 6 even with the barranca left, 9, 10, 12, 15 and 17  feel wide.

But that feeling of comfort for me comes to a halt on #18 with the church to the right and OB lurking (the in-course stakes have been removed, and now the boundary line is closer to the edge of the property).  The tee also seems oriented a hair to the right.  And usually there is a breeze in your face as you are driving west.  As much as you'd like to feel confident and aim toward Harvey's Hallow on the left, inevitably I hit something that goes down the right side and flirts with an unplayable position in the trees, or worse yet, OB.  There's just something about a shot into the wind with trouble right that makes my pulse rate go up.

[Steve Kline]

I like width all around the golf course, but I still want a significant challenge. Pinehurst #2 has width but I haven't shot under par in over 200 rounds there. To me Pine Valley has some width as well because he fairways are very generous. I hate courses where I'm prone to lose a lot f balls. The chance to hit a dramatic recovery shot, especially one that calls for a creative use of slope, is one of my greatest pleasures in the game. A tee shot with trouble right but the hole goes left really gets me out of my comfort zone because my bad miss is a block right and my safety tee shot is a little cut.

I like any greens that are a speed of 8 or more as long as they are smooth. Rolling the greens is just as important as cutting them to me. I like lots of slope in my greens - both subtle and dramatic. I don't like slow greens because my stroke is not geared to "hitting" the ball.

I'm comfortable with distance from 6,000 to 7,200 assuming F&F conditions. Last week I played two courses in Louisville. The first was Owl Creek - a tremendously fun nine hole course that was in immaculate shape. Greens were reasonably firm but still held a shot. Bunkers were not overly used but deep when present. Greens were quick, but not overly so, and true. There was a drivable par 4 and lengthy par 4. Two trips around the course resulted in a total length of just over 6,000 yards (my average tee shot is 260-270 yards). Then I played Valhalla. A good course but not great. The new greens and virtually everything else done to the course for the Ryder Cup are utterly awful. The course has plenty of width, risk/reward par 5s, was in good condition with the fairways running. I like that some streams are used as hazards but there are no lakes. The course measured 6,950 yards (not the Ryder Cup tees) but I could have comfortably played it from another 250 yards back with the fairways running the way they were. I enjoyed both courses but I think I almost enjoyed Owl Creek more.

Really fluffy sand in bunkers gets me out of my comfort zone. I just never hit good bunker shots out of them. Also, chipping off of really tight fairways gets me out of my comfort zone.

[Michael Huber]

Last year I played a round of golf on bermuda grass for the first time last year in Florida.  Courses in Western PA have a substantial amount of elevation change and Florida does not.  Neither of those things are a shocker.

But the one thing that sort of told me "hey, you aren't playing a course you usually play" was the general atmosphere around the course.  The wildlife was noisier, the trees were mossier, and the birds were different.  Seeing a canadian goose or a robin or something like that wouldn't phase me, but I certainly took note when I saw a crane or something different. 

[C. Squier]

Comfort zone:

Yardage:  6600-7000 yards. 
Greens:  Lots of internal slope.  I'm not the best reader of greens.  The more obvious, the better for me.  I typically putt better on fast greens, 10-11 on stimp.
Conditioning:  As fun as F&F is, truth is I'm a mudder.  You can roll and sell my divots at a garden shop.
Hazards:  Don't really care, try not to spend much time in them
Architecture:  Love wide fairways.  Driving accuracy is my Achilles, give me some space and I can score well w/ my iron play.  I could play courses like Wild Horse and Black Sheep forever, love the generosity off the tee. 

Kill zone:

Hazards on both sides of the fairway
"Must Hit" fairways - on every hole.  A few per round is cool.
soggy approaches / chipping areas
OB!

[Sean Eidson]

16 Handicap; Drive well 240-270 Drive lousy 180-220; 36+ putts per round.  Drive well to Drive lousy ratio 1:1, average Fairways ~6

I'm out of my comfort zone when I feel like I don't have a shot at bogey after a bad drive.  This often shows up when conditions outside the fairway require a chip-out.  It could be 6 inch, thick rough, which I see about 5 times per year, or it could be desert/sand/waste areas which I see about 5 times per year.  The rest of the time, I'm playing courses with moderate to no rough and tree density that still lets you punch ~100 yards down the fairway.  I tend to enjoy playing from tees that are 6500-6800 yards because that usually means a good mix of short and long holes (for their par).

It just gets very discouraging to hit a bad drive, then either chip out or flail out and still have 200-250 yards to the green.  This isn't usually a feature of overall course length, but more an issue of the penalty to not hitting the fairway.  With my game, I have a hard time getting off the double bogey train when I can't hit the green in GIR+1.  Then my scores tend to balloon over 100, at which point I feel like I'm letting myself, my partner, and the golf course down.

I am very challenged by winds over 15 MPH because my ball striking is not consistently pure and wind accentuates bad shots too much for me to manage.

On greens, the more contour the better, and as long as the speeds don't get excessively slow or excessively fast (>11), I can usually manage a 2 putt from 30 ft or less.  I really like short holes with contoured greens.  Even if I end up on the wrong part of the green, I enjoy thinking about how the architect wanted me to hit the shot.

I really enjoy firm and fast.  I have a low ball flight with my driver and the difference can be 30 yards when it's firm - putting a short iron in my hands instead of a long iron/hybrid.  And I really enjoy hitting shots that include some action on the ground, be it a run up or a bank shot off a hill.

[Patrick_Mucci]

what is it about courses over 7,000 that take you out of your comfort zone?

Essentially, it's the impact of the distance on my game, especially when coupled with damp conditions where little or no roll is the norm.

In the winter, in Florida, where it's drier, 7,200 is just at the edge of my comfort zone.
I frequently play two courses that are just over 7,200 that are usually subject to a nice breeze.
If that breeze goes to more than a one club wind, I start getting out of my comfort zone.

Is it partly the fact that you would be hitting long irons into greens that are not designed to accept those shots? (Much like players such as Tom Watson, Ben Crenshaw, Nick Price and Gary Player talk about the modern Augusta National?)

Not really.

For example, on par 5's of 620 and 670, the 620 hole has a relatively small well guarded green, but, the hole usually plays into a wind or a crossing head wind, helping to hold the green, whereas the 670 yard hole usually plays downwind and has a huge green.

In both cases the third shot won't be with a short iron.

But, the design of the green, in light of the prevailing wind/s, allows for both greens to readily accept approach shots.

And if so, do you find that certain features/lack of features on or around the greens can mitigate that uncomfortableness - can open fronts to greens, and back to front tilts, make it easier for you to stay in the comfort zone despite the extra long yardage?

You can't change the architecture of a golf course during your round, it is what it is, and you have to accept it as such.
I could wish that the fronts were open instead of guarded, but, they're not, and even if they were, I'd still have to hit a very accurate long iron

The discomfort with distance comes from having to repeatedly hit long irons and/or fairway woods.

There may be a few let up holes on a course of 7,000 or more yards, but, those holes usually have their own defenses.

Hitting accurate long irons, over and over again, is a daunting task, thus, when courses get to 7,000, 7,200 and more, that task goes from enjoyable to burdensome to the point that it takes me out of my comfort zone.

I ask because I assume that, unlike most average golfers, you have no fear of -- or trouble with -- actually hitting a long iron, but that you can't consistently score as well if you have to hit long irons/fairway woods into most of the par 4s.

Anytime you're hitting 2 and 3 irons or fairway woods the fear or trouble factor is omnipresent.

I don't mind hitting a few 2 and 3 irons and/or fairway woods, but, I'm uncomfortable hitting them on almost every hole, especially if the fairways are narrow to average width, since shots out of the rough with long irons  and/or fairway woods are even more difficult and demanding.

So for me, under dry conditions, 7,200 is probably my upper limit to produce a salvagable round and 7,000 my upper limit while still thinking I have a fighting chance of shooting a decent round, with 6,800 being my upper limit of thinking I could shoot a sub-par round.

While I've shot sub-par rounds on courses at 7,200 yards, it's getting beyond very difficult to do so, unfortunately, the way I'm putting, my upper limit may soon go to 6,000 yards.

[Melvyn Morrow]

What’s my comfort zone  -  A Walking Only, no cart path 6,400 to 6,800 yard links course in the land just North of England. Hell on Earth to some but like living among the Angels for others.

Melvyn

[A.G._Crockett]

I bumped this back up in conjunction with the Doomed thread.  One of the things that really gets me out of my comfort zone is hole with a fairway that slopes to the outside of the dogleg, especially from right to left.  Very uncomfortable for me, and that seems to lead to poor swings all too often.

I'm also struggling right now with yardages.  I just resigned from my former club after 15 yrs.; it was a very short, VERY tight course and everything from my mindset to my clubs had become tailored to that.  I've now joined a club in which you have to declare on a yearly basis which tees you will play for purposes of points and skins games, instead of just everybody playing the back tees like we did at the other club.  I have been playing a set of tees that is 6800 but plays longer due to bermuda grass and relatively short par threes, and I'm finding it to be maybe too much golf course at that yardage.

Could be some ego to be swallowed at the beginning of 2010 with a move up one set of tees.  I'm old enough to justify it, and I'd be playing with most of the other seniors, but most of the better players will still be back. 

So in other words, my comfort zone appears to be the same thing as my ego!

[Patrick_Mucci]

A.G.

The course in "doomed"  has three to four doglegs where the fairway slopes away from the dogleg.

The other day I hit what my fellow competitors called a perfect tee shot on one hole, up, over the trees at the corner of the dogleg, on what appeared to be a perfect line, only to find my ball in deep rough at the far side of the fairway.

Balls hit over the trees that land at the mid-point of the fairway can't hold the fairway and balls hit short of the mid-point risk hitting the trees or being caught in the heavy rough or both.

When I play the course I mentioned in "doomed" I'm well aware that I'm out of my comfort zone, as are many, many, many golfers that I've discussed the course with.

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