....so much fuss over concrete...

[A.G._Crockett]

I really don't see what is so difficult or wrong about that, and I'll NEVER see how more courses in more places in and of itself is a bad thing for me or the game of golf.

But there could be courses on these sites, walkable courses where golfers could choose to walk or ride!  Wouldn't that be better for you and the game of golf?

______________________________

Of course, and there are many such courses.  It isn't either/or; there are a lot of permutations out there.

By the way, there is an interesting article in GolfWorld this week about the routing that the Presidents Cup will use at Harding Park.  It may have already been discussed here, but it isn't the normal routing; it was changed to make the best possible match play course.  The downside is that there will be two long walks between holes now.

So it seems that even on a course such as Harding Park, it is possible that the very best golf course might not be as completely walker-friendly, no?  And Harding Park is pretty benign terrain, certainly compared to the sites that Jim Engh typically works on or was referring to in the original post.  So it MAY be possible that his original point has received some support, however unintentionally, from Willie Park.

And who are we to argue with Willie Park?

[Dan King]

A.G._Crockett writes:
But you and I both know that there are many sites that just aren't that way.  My problem is that I have this crazy idea that my world gets a little better when more golf courses are built, and I realize that some will not be exactly what I want them to be, for a great variety of reasons.

I don't see any reason courses should be built on sites that don't work for golf courses. I understand others wanting this, but it has nothing to do with golf for me. I have no reason to root for golf remaining popular. I'm not involved in the golf business, and see golf being popular as much of the ruin of the game. In my mind it was a much more fun game when all golfers essentially knew each other, before they tried to popularize the game.

"Cartball courses require no skill in routing."  is the statement that I have the most trouble with, though.  I see no reason why this should be true, but I'll concede the point for a moment.  However, I think you'd have to admit that it would be at least possible to display great skill in routing only while building a mediocre golf course in order to avoid potentially better holes that would require long rides.  I have played some brilliant designs in the mountains that weren't walkable, and I marveled at how the GCA could "see" the holes before he built them; I rarely get that sense on flatter, easier terrain.  In reality, it seems to me that routing on marginal terrain is MUCH tougher, not less.

Come on, given big enough of a property, I can go and find 18 great tee sites and 18 great green sites. If I could do it, there is very little chance it really requires any special skill.

I never liked the idea of 18 signature holes. I believe it is often the quality of the between holes that make a course great. Again, getting back to music, I want my golf course to work like a great classical piece, where there are (I'm drawing a blank on what it is called) very intense movements and then more relaxed movements. Signature golf is much more about rock 'n' roll than classical. You just beat the listener/golfer over the head with music/ golf experience. While I am a rocker at times, I don't think much rock 'n' roll will be remembered for hundreds of years. The ones remembered will will not necessarily be the Ramones. The Ramones were fun, but ain't nobody comparing them to Mozart.

This is a hell of a position for me to be in.  I'm defending golf carts, which I hate, and riding-only courses, which I detest.  But I understand riding-only courses like Engh was talking about, and I can still admire the skill and artistry of the people that design those courses.  I really don't see what is so difficult or wrong about that, and I'll NEVER see how more courses in more places in and of itself is a bad thing for me or the game of golf.

It is comparing Jessica Simpson to Nina Simone (I love Holiday, but I thought Simone was a better example because she always refused to compromise for a bigger payday.) I can admire Simpson's rendition of These Boots are Made for Walking but that doesn't mean I gotta compare it to truly talented artists. Just like the best bubblegum in the world doesn't compare to a 3 star meal, neither does the great cartball course compare to real golf, routed to make the entire course work together.

Again, I have no problem with the existence of cartball -- though I think we would be better off without it -- but nobody is letting me make those decisions. I get to decide what I like and what I dislike, and I dislike cartball. I say let them keep trying to make great cartball courses, just like Simpson can continue to try and sing and Bazooka can try to make great bubblegum. But I'm not going to compare them to real artists.

Cheers,
Dan King

If some hole does not possess striking individuality through some gift of nature, it must be given as much as possible artificially, and the artifice must be introduced in so subtle a manner as to make it seem natural.
 --A.W. Tillinghast
(Or you can just pour concrete over it.)

[Bill_McBride]

I really don't see what is so difficult or wrong about that, and I'll NEVER see how more courses in more places in and of itself is a bad thing for me or the game of golf.

But there could be courses on these sites, walkable courses where golfers could choose to walk or ride!  Wouldn't that be better for you and the game of golf?

______________________________

Of course, and there are many such courses.  It isn't either/or; there are a lot of permutations out there.

By the way, there is an interesting article in GolfWorld this week about the routing that the Presidents Cup will use at Harding Park.  It may have already been discussed here, but it isn't the normal routing; it was changed to make the best possible match play course.  The downside is that there will be two long walks between holes now.

So it seems that even on a course such as Harding Park, it is possible that the very best golf course might not be as completely walker-friendly, no?  And Harding Park is pretty benign terrain, certainly compared to the sites that Jim Engh typically works on or was referring to in the original post.  So it MAY be possible that his original point has received some support, however unintentionally, from Willie Park.

And who are we to argue with Willie Park?

There was nothing wrong with the original routing of Harding Park, and no walk of over 30 yards to the next tee.  That rerouting IMHO is a bunch of crap.

[Dan King]

A.G._Crockett writes:
So it seems that even on a course such as Harding Park, it is possible that the very best golf course might not be as completely walker-friendly, no?  And Harding Park is pretty benign terrain, certainly compared to the sites that Jim Engh typically works on or was referring to in the original post.  So it MAY be possible that his original point has received some support, however unintentionally, from Willie Park.

And who are we to argue with Willie Park?

I'm clearly missing your point here. Harding Park has been and will continue to be a well routing course that is easy to walk. The PGA Tour, in the infinite lack of wisdom screw-up the course, and somehow Park is to blame. I'm missing how Park has anything to do with the PGA Tour's screw-up.

Cheers,
Dan King

It's sort of the U.S. team playing the team that lives in the U.S.
 --Hale Irwin, U.S. captain (on why he doesn't expect the fervor that marked recent Ryder Cups at the Presidents Cup)

[Kevin_Reilly]

The only negative aspect of Harding Park's real routing is the similar #2 and #7 that run side by side in the same direction.  The changes caused by the PGA Tour's statistical analyses (matches last 15 or 16 holes on average) and corporate tents will hopefully be a distant memory in a couple of weeks.

[DMoriarty]

I really don't see what is so difficult or wrong about that, and I'll NEVER see how more courses in more places in and of itself is a bad thing for me or the game of golf.

But there could be courses on these sites, walkable courses where golfers could choose to walk or ride!  Wouldn't that be better for you and the game of golf?

David,

Are you saying that there are no golfers (cart golfers according to Melvin) that you would rather not play Rustic Canyon with on a Saturday morning? They are going to take a cart on Rustic or Lost Canyons, so why not have them go to Lost Canyons to clear a path for the real golfers at Rustic?

Mike,  I am a big fan of the double negative and wouldn't not consider its proper use a bit of artform, but even I am not not unsure of what you didn't not mean in that first sentence. 

Generally I'd prefer to play with walkers, but it really depends on who it is.  I'd gladly play with some of those around here who sometimes find it necessary to take a cart, so long as they managed to keep the carts where they belong.

Last weekend we got paired up with a father and son (probably high school) both apparently in good physical condition, riding in a cart.  I finally asked them why they decided to take a cart and they explained that they hadn't really even thought about it.   They had been playing nearby cartball courses on the weekends and had apparently become used to it, so walking was no longer even a consideration.   Unfortunately more and more golfers take that seat in a cart at one of these cartball courses and the inertia just keeps them there, and in the long run golf becomes less interesting as a result. 

So yes, it'd be nice if they stayed at Moorpark CC or Tierrable Rejada or Lost Canyons and left Rustic Canyon to us, but it would be even nicer if all four were excellent walking courses instead of just the one. 
____________________________________________________________

A.G.  As I tried to explain in other threads, I think that the quality of the golf and course necessarily suffers when walking is eliminated.  I don't think that a few spectacular tees can make up for that.

As for Harding Park, I don't look to the PGA to tell me what is a good routing.

[A.G._Crockett]

I really don't see what is so difficult or wrong about that, and I'll NEVER see how more courses in more places in and of itself is a bad thing for me or the game of golf.

But there could be courses on these sites, walkable courses where golfers could choose to walk or ride!  Wouldn't that be better for you and the game of golf?

______________________________

Of course, and there are many such courses.  It isn't either/or; there are a lot of permutations out there.

By the way, there is an interesting article in GolfWorld this week about the routing that the Presidents Cup will use at Harding Park.  It may have already been discussed here, but it isn't the normal routing; it was changed to make the best possible match play course.  The downside is that there will be two long walks between holes now.

So it seems that even on a course such as Harding Park, it is possible that the very best golf course might not be as completely walker-friendly, no?  And Harding Park is pretty benign terrain, certainly compared to the sites that Jim Engh typically works on or was referring to in the original post.  So it MAY be possible that his original point has received some support, however unintentionally, from Willie Park.

And who are we to argue with Willie Park?

Sorry; Willie Watson.  It was late, I was tired.

[A.G._Crockett]

Come on, given big enough of a property, I can go and find 18 great tee sites and 18 great green sites. If I could do it, there is very little chance it really requires any special skill.

Cheers,
Dan King

If some hole does not possess striking individuality through some gift of nature, it must be given as much as possible artificially, and the artifice must be introduced in so subtle a manner as to make it seem natural.
 --A.W. Tillinghast
(Or you can just pour concrete over it.)

Dan,
If you got a big enough property to find 18 good tee and green sites, how long would the walks be between holes?

I agree with you that, given a big enough property, THAT aspect (and it is only ONE aspect) of routing shouldn't be too hard, and that you could do it.  I could, too, given a big enough property.  Like Nebraska, let's say. 

But that brings up several problems.  GCA's don't get unlimited property to find those 18 tee and greens sites, and the land they ARE getting as we move into the 21st century is more and more marginal as walkable golf courses.

I want them to keep building golf courses on that marginal land, and I'm willing to ride a cart to play 'em.  Some of those courses will be a blast to play, and my life will be enriched by playing golf, even on the ones that aren't "great".  I'll walk when I can, and ride when I have to, and love playing our great game either way.  Hell, I'm 57 and I still dream about playing golf,  and still get butterflies thinking about the Sat. a.m. points game at my club for $20!  I play in the rain, I play in the heat, I play in the cold, and I once played the last 16 holes of a round with blood flowing constantly after a ball hit me in the head and took off the top part of my right ear!  I finished the round, and THEN went to the ER because I couldn't bear to stop.  (BTW, that round was played in a cart, which was fortunate because I was too dizzy to walk far after I got hit.)

I realize that others here do not share those views, and you are entitled to those opinions.

And with that, I'm done on this thread, I think. 

[Dan King]

A.G._Crockett writes:
And with that, I'm done on this thread, I think.

Don't skeedaddle just yet. What did Park/Watson do to deserve your scorn for letting the PGA Tour screw up a course? You do realize both Park and Watson are long gone, and have no say on what happens to a course when they are dead and buried.

If you got a big enough property to find 18 good tee and green sites, how long would the walks be between holes?

What walks? You just lay concrete.

I agree with you that, given a big enough property, THAT aspect (and it is only ONE aspect) of routing shouldn't be too hard, and that you could do it.  I could, too, given a big enough property.  Like Nebraska, let's say.

So we are in agreement, the smaller the property the more skill it will take to make a good routing. I was under the impression in our last cross post you were saying cartball routing also require special skills. How special can it be if both you and I have that skill?

I want them to keep building golf courses on that marginal land, and I'm willing to ride a cart to play 'em.

I played Plantation Course once. I'll never go back. If I'm on Maui I'll play Waiehu. I have ridden in carts now and then, usually because someone I'm golfing with will ride in a cart. But I no longer go to cartball courses. I have better ways to spend my time and money. I get a choice on where I spend my money, and choose not to give it to those that have cartball courses built. I try to avoid spending money on things I don't believe in.

Cheers,
Dan King

He who has the fastest golf cart never has a bad lie.
 --Mickey Mantle, 1962

[DMoriarty]

I want them to keep building golf courses on that marginal land, and I'm willing to ride a cart to play 'em.  Some of those courses will be a blast to play, and my life will be enriched by playing golf, even on the ones that aren't "great".  I'll walk when I can, and ride when I have to, and love playing our great game either way.

I don't know about this.   I think there have been enough mediocre cartball golf courses built in the last few decades to last an eternity.   We need more excellent traditional golf courses so more people can taste what they are giving up by settling for nice views from the seat of a cart.   

. . . I once played the last 16 holes of a round with blood flowing constantly after a ball hit me in the head and took off the top part of my right ear!  I finished the round, and THEN went to the ER because I couldn't bear to stop.  (BTW, that round was played in a cart, which was fortunate because I was too dizzy to walk far after I got hit.

Ouch.  Was the course called Tyson National?

[Mike Sweeney]

Last weekend we got paired up with a father and son (probably high school) both apparently in good physical condition, riding in a cart.  I finally asked them why they decided to take a cart and they explained that they hadn't really even thought about it.   They had been playing nearby cartball courses on the weekends and had apparently become used to it, so walking was no longer even a consideration.   Unfortunately more and more golfers take that seat in a cart at one of these cartball courses and the inertia just keeps them there, and in the long run golf becomes less interesting as a result. 

So yes, it'd be nice if they stayed at Moorpark CC or Tierrable Rejada or Lost Canyons and left Rustic Canyon to us, but it would be even nicer if all four were excellent walking courses instead of just the one. 

David,

I think Yale is an interesting course to look at for carts. In the old days Yale had caddies and was obviously walking only. Over the years, the cart paths were put in and clearly it hurt a few holes (see 3 and 9). Now there is a still a hard core crew of walkers, but many do not even think of walking Yale. When it is Reunion weekend and the 50 year reunion tees off, obviously there is a place for carts at Yale in the modern world.

Jay,

You asked earlier and my mole over at Max's tells me that you are a big topic of conversation.  Don't ask me for details because I don't have them and I only want to stir the pot . 

[Jay Flemma]

Jay,

You asked earlier and my mole over at Max's tells me that you are a big topic of conversation.   Don't ask me for details because I don't have them and I only want to stir the pot .  

Thanks, that's all the info I need.  Sorry you feel the need to stir the pot.  I hope you overcome it.  Schadenfreude doesn't look good on anyone.

[DMoriarty]

David,

I think Yale is an interesting course to look at for carts. In the old days Yale had caddies and was obviously walking only. Over the years, the cart paths were put in and clearly it hurt a few holes (see 3 and 9). Now there is a still a hard core crew of walkers, but many do not even think of walking Yale. When it is Reunion weekend and the 50 year reunion tees off, obviously there is a place for carts at Yale in the modern world.

Mike,  I've no doubt there is a place for carts at Yale and most other courses in the modern world.    But while I haven't played it, I suspect that Yale is a better course because it was designed for walking.   It is not about the carts, it's about the courses. 

Jay,

You asked earlier and my mole over at Max's tells me that you are a big topic of conversation.  Don't ask me for details because I don't have them and I only want to stir the pot . 

Last time I was over there Jay was far from a big topic of conversation.  Jim Engh approach to design was actually being discussed (as opposed to most of the conversation over here) and it is hard to have a conversation about Engh without Jay and Matt coming up, but this hardly makes them a big topic of conversation.   I don't recall much of substance said about either that we don't all know anyway.

Here you are causing trouble even after I told you I didn't want another fight . . .

[Mike Sweeney]

Here you are causing trouble even after I told you I didn't want another fight . . .

I know I know.... I was being bad.

As my Uncle Willie used to say, "There's a little Cop in all the Irish." Cheers.