....so much fuss over concrete...

[Melvyn Morrow]

I'm thinking of taken up cart balling on the understanding that I can use a M1 Abrams instead of a cart

Sort the men out from the boys.

Melvyn

[Jay Flemma]

I'm just saying that walking the course without golf clubs on your back is not useful when making an honest assessment of a course's walkability. Right?

WRONG!  I walked that course PLENTY with my clubs on my back too...and lakota and redlands. 

By your logic...anyone who takes a caddie to carry his clubs hasn't really walked then, have they?

[DMoriarty]

Jay, you've got a lot of nerve demanding apologies.    Go back and review some of your posts on this thread.  Hardly gentlemanly.  And you've got to realize that much of this entire fuss about Jim Engh is because you and a few others have been misrepresenting his work for the past several years, pretending it was something it clearly was not.   Should we all expect an apology for that?   


 

...and I thought we weren't supposed to have any FAKE NAMES on GCA?  "Jon Spaulding?"

Stamm always said, "I don't believe in God, but I'm afraid of him." Well I believe in God, and the only thing that scares me is Jon Spaulding.

[Bill_McBride]

So Jon has no business trying to smear me.  I have never done anything to him for him to come on here and try a bush-league and disingenuous attack like that.  Jon Spaulding you were dead wrong and mean-spirited for no reason, and you owe me an apology...and you owe the website one too.

Jay, I would take your objection here a little more serioously if it weren't so damned funny that Jon Googled Pradera and you came up in a cart!   

Jon is a good guy (if a bit wild off the tee   ), give him a break and don't get your hackles up!

No apology required in my humble opinion, no need to look for a fight!

[Rob Rigg]

This is Ran's North star...a place where gentlermen and friends are supposed to unwind, meet each other and learn from each other...and people like him sully it every time the slime their way over here from...wherever else they hang out  That's exactly the kind of nonsense that suppresses discussion of architecture, and makes others in the industry...like archies, writers, and course owners NOT want to participate...and that hurts all of us and Ran.  Think how much better this place is without the few people who think they score points zinging others to make themselves look good on an Internet bulletin board.  Some people really need to get a life...and stop being resentful of those who do.

Jay,

I can only assume that you are referring to yourself here.

While some people were trying to have a discussion about Jim Engh's initial post you started with your less than witty one liners and accusations that people were trying to condemn Jim' theory on golf course design while they were just asking him questions about his post and his reasons for designing "mostly cart courses" = aka - cart golf courses - versus potentially walkable courses.

After you apologize to Jim Engh for trying to misrepresent his statements in the first post - while trying to defend him from something that he is clearly comfortable with as part of his design philosophy - let us know.

[Jay Flemma]

Yeah right...typical behavior of you guys...blame the person you abuse.  "There is no worse scoundrel than someone who tries to blame the person they abused to begin with." - Patrick O'Brian

 Hold your breath waiting, Rob.

And no, Bill, I disagree with you, that was a cheap and disingenuous shot by Jon, and he did it at the behest of others.  You know damn well I walk everywhere because you saw me icing my ankle at the Dixie every day after walking each round.

[Garland Bayley]

...
And no, Bill, I disagree with you, that was a cheap and disingenuous shot by Jon, and he did it at the behest of others.  You know damn well I walk everywhere because you saw me icing my ankle at the Dixie every day after walking each round.

This is interesting. Jay can read the non-existent (Jay's earlier conclusion) Jon's mind and know whether or not he is being straightforward.
Not only that, he apparently knows all the personal communications that Jon has had. Perhaps from reading Jon's mind or perhaps from reading 1500 other minds. Such abilities are hard to imagine by we mere mortals.

He also demonstrates that with a few samples he believes we mortals should be able to draw absolute conclusions about all occurrences. He neglects to remember we are mere mortals and cannot draw such all encompassing conclusions.

[Rob Rigg]

Jay,

Your hypocrisy is spectacular - I never called you any names, just presented your argument back to you because it made absolutely no sense. Instead of having a civil debate about your "Jim Engh is not talking about creating cart golf courses" claim, which was clearly erroneous, you took the low road and started insulting my website and public initiative to rate courses in the US for walkability.

I don't think this is "Jay Flemma can say whatever he wants and not be questioned.com"?

I will certainly not "hold my breath waiting" for you to apologize to anyone (nice edit from your first attempt at writing the post by the way  ) - because I could care less what you do.

You SHOULD apologize to Jim Engh for hi-jacking his thread and putting words and thoughts in his mouth when we all know he is more than capable of representing himself and communicating his design philosophy to the treehouse as HE sees fit.

Your statements and holier than thou claims on this thread are pretty bizarre for someone who supposedly wants to see everyone get along in a civil manner and have insightful debates on topics of golf course architecture.

Your adamant denial of riding in a golf cart is also quite strange. That is your choice Jay, there is nothing wrong with taking a cart if you choose to do so - Is there?

[DMoriarty]

Jay, I don't think anyone really cares whether you rode between holes at Pradera.  Probably a good choice as it seems to have been quite a drive.   I think the problem is that much of what you have claimed about Jim Engh's courses is directly contrary to what Jim Engh has repeatedly written.   And those of us who you and others have been slamming seem to have had a pretty good grasp of his approach all along.   So when it turns out that even your claims about "always" walking these courses turns out to be false, well it just seems to encapsulate much of what you've written about Mr. Engh's courses.   And like Robb, I don't understand it.  You and a few others have really done Mr. Engh a disservice, because had you guys just been forthright about his work, this discussion would have ended long ago.   As it is, we aren't even to the interesting part of the conversation, yet.

One more thing.  I might have it wrong, but in the video you seem to be comparing to Jim Engh to Led Zeppelin.   What do you mean?  Might it have something to do with a Cartpath to Heaven?   

Pardon me.  I just couldn't resist.

[cary lichtenstein]

Easy guys, stop the bickering, kiss and make up

[Mike McGuire]

This thread is a good example of why I have little interestest in participating here anymore.

A great start by Jim [I would like to cut and paste with your permission], about real world golf design....followed by a bunch of cyber space little dicks's  [you know who you are] comments.

Thanks Ran, and I will stay in touch.

AG,

Would this be one of those rants you speak of?

Jim Engh, a golf course architect, make an interesting post which gets twisted into some ridiculous banter and he never returns to comment. Another architect, Paul Cowley, comments this thread is why he doesn't post any more - and he is ridiculed.

Sad indeed when the little dicks chase off the Big Sticks.

[Jay Flemma]

Jay, I don't think anyone really cares whether you rode between holes at Pradera.  Probably a good choice as it seems to have been quite a drive.   I think the problem is that much of what you have claimed about Jim Engh's courses is directly contrary to what Jim Engh has repeatedly written.   And those of us who you and others have been slamming seem to have had a pretty good grasp of his approach all along.   So when it turns out that even your claims about "always" walking these courses turns out to be false, well it just seems to encapsulate much of what you've written about Mr. Engh's courses.   And like Robb, I don't understand it.  You and a few others have really done Mr. Engh a disservice, because had you guys just been forthright about his work, this discussion would have ended long ago.   As it is, we aren't even to the interesting part of the conversation, yet.

One more thing.  I might have it wrong, but in the video you seem to be comparing to Jim Engh to Led Zeppelin.   What do you mean?  Might it have something to do with a Cartpath to Heaven?  

From Tony Korologos, the man who shot the video:

"Jesus Christ some people are idiots.  1st I asked Jay to sit in the cart so I could put the video camera on him.  2nd you see him start walking after he takes a bite out of his hamburger."

Mike M...thank you for having the courage to stand up to them.

[DMoriarty]

EDITED OUT MY CONFUSED COMMENT TO MIKE MCGUIRE. 
_____________________________________

Jay,

Not sure why you are so defensive about this cart thing.  It is not as if anyone caught Melvyn in a cart.  Besides, shouldn't you be riding in a cart anyway, so as play the course as the architect intended?  

As for your friend I don't know him and he doesn't know me, and I fail to understand why he feels compelled to call anyone here an idiot.  We didn't repeatedly claim we "always" walked these courses, and we didn't post a video on youtube of you riding in between holes.

Which reminds me . . .  I think you must have misspoke when you claimed that the cart ride was only from the practice area to the first tee.  I've never even played Pradera, but I'd be willing to bet that the video was shot between the 9th hole and the 10th hole, with a stop for a burger in between.  How about the loser donates $100 dollars to gca.com?  Do we have a bet?

[Anthony Gray]

 Carts keep people playing golf longer in their life span period. That is not a bad thing.

  Anthony

[DMoriarty]

Anthony.  You are probably correct, but no one (except for maybe Melvyn) is talking about banning golf carts.    We are talking about designing golf courses only appropriate for carts on sites where a walkable course would have been possible.    People ride on walkable courses all the time.   No one (except for maybe Melvyn) is complaining about that.    Some of us though find the concept of building cart ball courses on walkable sites worth exploring.  

You played Castle Stewart recently, right?  They allow carts, don't they?   But they also allow walking and I've heard the course is quite walkable, even for 36 a day.   Now imagine that they had completely disregarded walking in the design, and made if just for Cart Golf.   I've heard their are two levels, so presumably they could have had a number of spectacular holes playing from the top level to the bottom level and imagine how spectacular the view would have been.  And the carts could just zip right up to do it again.  

Would Castle Stewart have been a better course had they designed for carts only so that they could further maximize the spectacular setting?   Or would they have lost something important in the process?

That is more in line what what we are trying to discuss.  

[TEPaul]

From Paul Cowley on Sept 24:

"This thread is a good example of why I have little interestest in participating here anymore.

A great start by Jim [I would like to cut and paste with your permission], about real world golf design....followed by a bunch of cyber space little dicks's  [you know who you are] comments.

Thanks Ran, and I will stay in touch."



Now THAT is one Goddamned crying shame!!! There are probably 1476 participants on this website who could learn more about golf course architecture, past, present and future by spending a single day on a golf course site and project with Paul Cowley than they could in twenty years on this website!

[Anthony Gray]

  David,

  I think comparing Scotish/links courses to American courses is a little unfair. Respectfully the golf cultures are simply worlds apart. What is acceptable in one country is taboo in another. In the US we are lazier, more obese, have land where there are greater distances between holes as compare to our UK brethren. It just makes since to give people what they want/need. And What golfers want/need in the US and UK is very different. And savy architects realize this.

  Anthony

[TEPaul]

"I think comparing Scotish/links courses to American courses is a little unfair."


Anthony:

I don't know if it's unfair but it isn't particularly intelligent, productive or informative.

Comparing probably isn't even what we should be doing between the two anyway; we should probably be contrasting them and if we do we very well might find the theory of a "Big World" in golf and golf architecture makes sense and is actually healthy for golf in the long run.

[Garland Bayley]

 Carts keep people playing golf longer in their life span period. That is not a bad thing.

  Anthony

But amigo, do carts shorten their life span?

My dad is 84 and still walking and playing. When he seemed headed for adult onset diabetes, his doctor told him to walk 10000 steps per day. All evidence of the diabetes has gone away and he has started golfing more. And of course we all know a sample size of one proves all arguments. 

[Anthony Gray]

  Personally, there are a handful of players at my home course that could not play if it was walking only. They will live longer because they have social interaction and friendship that they would not have without golf/carts. There is much more to golf than physical activity, It aids health by providing a social network, friendship,felliowship and more. Without concrete these aspects would stop for many people that i consider friends and vital elements to my home club. And let's face it, land that courses are built on in the UK are completly different than the land used for golf in the US.

  Anthony

[Michael Moore]

Jay -

I started off this discussion a few weeks ago because I was deeply impressed by the photos of Jim Engh's work, and I was moved by just how different it was from New England. Jim's response was fascinating and appreciated by all, and, although it is not my cup of tea, I have absolutely no problem with the "spectacular cartball" school of architecture.

I am confused by your claim that Pradera is a walkable course. Yes, it's true, as Steven Wright quipped, "everywhere is within walking distance". But l have some serious questions about the following green to tree trek that deserve an answer.



From the green to the penultimate tee, along the path, is roughly 500 yards. As the crow flies it is about 230 yards.

Is it possible to walk directly from the green to the tee here? Judging from the switchback it looks pretty steep.

At the aforementioned outing when your clubs were on the cart and you were walking, did you really walk this one? If so, how long did it take you to catch up to your group?

When you walk and carry at Pradera, how do you feel when you arrive at this tee? How long does it take to recover before you are ready to tee off?

[Garland Bayley]

Anthony,

Absolutely, health is enhanced by a social network, friendship, fellowship and more. While a great place to get these are at a golf club, I would suggest these can be obtained equally well at many other organizations not limited to church, bridge club, and so on. However, I can think of nothing that makes excercise more enjoyable than walking and playing golf.

PS, if you think I am bad at golf, you haven't seen me dance yet.
 

[Charlie Goerges]

Honestly though, Jim Engh is not the Led Zeppelin of Golf Course Design. That title most assuredly belongs to Max Behr. (Perhaps more accurately Led Zeppelin is the Max Behr of Rock and Roll.)  You see, you don't get to that level of notoriety without making some bad decisions, drinking too much, and throwing some punches in anger.

Mr. Engh seems to be too much of a gentleman for that.

[Rob Rigg]

Bandon Trails is a perfect example of a site that could have been turned into cart golf (in theory - obviously Mr Keiser wanted a walking only course).

Instead, Bill Coore took a ton of time to walk the property and develop a fantastic routing that is walkable (yes, there is a long walk between the 13th Green and 14th Tee if the shuttle is not there).

Anthony,

Do you think that Bandon Trails would be the course it is if it had been designed for carts? Would the transition from dunes to meadows to forest appear so seamless? Would an architect have taken such care in ensuring that transition? Would the architect have routed more up and down the hills to maximize views instead of along them?

If carts were allowed at BT I am sure that MANY golfers would take them - I think it is good if golfers have a choice and Trails is not the easiest walk in the world - BUT, because it is walkable, golfers can choose to walk the course and experience the routing as the architect intended.

This is the 50/50 question back to Jim Engh - If a course could be laid out that is walkable, on a site with some elevation change and/or hills, does "cart golf" really lead to a better course? Are there any examples of this?

[DMoriarty]

 David,

  I think comparing Scotish/links courses to American courses is a little unfair. Respectfully the golf cultures are simply worlds apart. What is acceptable in one country is taboo in another. In the US we are lazier, more obese, have land where there are greater distances between holes as compare to our UK brethren. It just makes since to give people what they want/need. And What golfers want/need in the US and UK is very different. And savy architects realize this.

  Anthony

I don't get it.   The people that want/need to ride can ride.   But why would they want/need everyone else to ride as well?   I am NOT talking about walking only courses.  I am talking about riding only courses.   What possible justification is there for leaving the walkers out when the land allows for walking?  

Plus, when it comes to figuring out truly excellent golf course design I don't know that I am willing to accept that we ought to be singing the praises of those who design for what you describe as "lazy and obese," and exclude those who aren't.   Mcdonald's gives the "lazy and obese" what they want.  So should we consider it to be among our finest dining establishments?

Anyway, I am sure that the American designers and builders would appreciate you considering Castle Stewart so Scottish.   Not sure if you put it together, but the other designers were the same as designed and built Rustic Canyon (with Geoff Shackelford.)   It is a modern American course that is very walkable.   Did Gil, Jim, and Jeff miss the boat?   Why should they have included walking if most will ride?   Just think they could have plastered elevated tees up and down the canyon walls to bring in more spectacular shots.  Would it have been a better course if they had?

Castle Stewart didn't have to be a typical walking course.   Isn't their target customer the vacationing golfer?  So why worry about what the locals want?   Would it have been a better course if built for carts only?