[Mike Hendren]

Many are suggesting elsewhere that fairway bunkers should be deep to penalize the occupant.  Yet, with the exception of low cappers, I rarely see a well played shot of significant distance exiting them.  Is the lie not penalty enough - say a half-stroke - for most players?  Stated otherwise, if your handicap exceeds 10, do you routinely hit greens from 150 yards out of sand - if not what percentage of the time to you come up short?

Is there not a maintenance tradeoff as well?

As is often the case lately, I'm a little confused.

Mike

[Phil McDade]

Mike:

As in most things in life, it depends. The one bunker on your other thread -- the very shallow one in the first picture -- may be well-placed, but it'd rather be in that than in a similar position with 3-inch rough (I say that as a probable 20-handicapper these days).

The reason I say that it depends is that bunkering questions always, to me, bring to mind how Langford used them, particularly at a course like Lawsonia. Now that's a course with some penal fairway bunkering -- deep, with high lips, making it hard for even the single-digit handicapper to reach the green. But they are obvious targets, and Langford provides plenty of width in his fairways to negotiate your way around them, even with a high handicap. They are often (or can be, depending on the flag position for the day) on a direct line between tee and green, so the low-handicapper can take them on, so to speak, knowing the risk of going in them. The high handicapper can tack his way around them without undue penalty.

I've seen other modern architects with a similar take -- Illinois-based Greg Martin comes to mind, as someone who builds what can be some penal fairway bunkers, but provides room around them. I'll try to post some examples.

[Mike Hendren]

Phil, excellent use of the term "tack."

I do think deep fairway bunkers can, and on occasion should, act like buoys in shallow water - directing the timid/conservative player to tack around them as he progresses down the fairway.  In such instances, the taller the buoy the better.

Mike

[Mark Pearce]

Michael,

In the last round I played I was in two fairway bunkers.  One was 220 to the green, the other 70.  I hit both greens.  I'm a 12 handicap.  To be honest, it depends on the bunker.  Of those two shots the shorter was far harder.  The long one was from a shallow, very compacted bunker, so the ball sat on top of the very firm sand and I could very confidently hit a utility.  The shorter was from a deeper bunker with softer sand and I had to strike the ball very cleanly with a sand wedge.  On my home course there are few fairway bunkers I would even think about attempting to reach the green from, since most are reasonably deep and have a course sand that is hard to hit cleanly off.  I have played other courses with very shallow fairway bunkers that are barely a hazard, even to me.

I would also challenge the suggestion that a fairway bunker is a 3/4 shot hazard for a golfer of my ability.  For that to be the case it would presume that fro, say, the distance of 150 yards that you chose I will average 3 further shots to hole out if not in the bunker.  That's not right.  I'll probably hit a green from 150 somewhere between 2/3 and 4/5 of the time from a good lie.  If I miss the green I might get up and down somewhere between 50% and 65% of the time.  OTOH, if I hit the greemn I might one-putt 20% of the time.  You can do the maths but I don't think that averages out at three shots from 150 yards from a good lie.  Of course, the alternative to the bunker may not be a good lie....

[Kalen Braley]

Michael,

1st off let me say that as a 18-19 handicapper, the only shots in my arsenal that are a piece of cake are 3 foot putts and less!!   

As for flat bunkers, I find them far easier than non-flat ones for the following reasons:

1) Most important, there is almost never a lip.  This is not only good for having more options and being able to play clubs like a 3 iron, but its also beneficial when the inevitable thin/skank shots occur.  A thin shot in a normal fairway bunker usually means you're playing your next shot from the same bunker and you are just as far away.  In a bunker like the 1st pic in your other thread, it usually means I'm at least somewhere near to the green/intended target.

2)  Its always easier for hacks to hit off even lies for no other reason than it removes variables.  Variables like how much do I need to choke up, how far is the ball above/below my feet, etc.  So its a numbers game and by removing the number of adjustments I need to make to my normal swing means a much higher % chance for a successfull shot.

3)  In my experience, flat bunkers usually play a lot more like hard-pan in nature. At least here in Utah, I've played very very few flat bunkers with soft sand. So a shot off hard pan is much easier because even a fat shot will bounce the club and give a halfway decent result.....think mats at the range.  A more traditional bunker with fluffy soft sand means a fat shot goes a few dozens yards...if you're lucky.

4)  Last but not least, roll-up the previous 3 and now a high capper will have more confidence in thier ability to hit a good shot.  And no doubt the pyschological part of golf cannot be overlooked, even if its more difficult to quantify and measure.

[Tim Nugent]

Another generalist question with no answer.  Where in the hole is it placed? Inside or outside a dogleg? Short or long? On a straight hole? Alongside the fairway or protruding into it, What is the terrain of the course? Flat, Hilly, Flat but rumpled? What's the length of the hole? What's the strategic purpose of the bunker? What's the texture of the sand? Hard andfirm r soft and fluffy? What direction does the prevailing wind come from?

These and other parameters should be examined before determining what the atributed of a particular bunker should be.

[jim_lewis]

I like fairway bunkers that tempt the player to do something stupid, like trying to hit a shot he can't pull off more that once out of 10 attempts.  A shallow fairway bunker can do just that. I had a lengthy discussion with a GD rater a few years ago about a fairway bunker on the left of the long par-5 twelth hole at Forest Creek South. He thinks the bunker is too shallow. I don't. It is unreachable off the tee by anyone, so the player who finds himself in it is already in trouble as he lies 180--200 from the green in at least two. The green is fronted by a wide and deep bunker.  I argue that if the fairway bunker were deeper, only a very skilled player (who wouldn't even be there in the first place) would even consider trying to reach the green. Everyone would just pitch out to wedge distance. Not so with the shallow bunker. Time and time again I see guys suckered into trying to reach the green. They think that with their career shot they can make it. Wrong! BTW, there used to be a holly tree that discouraged an attempt to go for the green. When it died, I convinced the super not to replace it using the same argument. He agreed.

Jim Lewis

[Sean_A]

Bogey

You will get my stock answer.  Have few bunkers, but make em' count.  I can't stand shallow bunkers.  They scream to me of the archie not willing to seek out other methods to challenge the golfer. 

Ciao

[Niall C]

Mike

Unlike some of the others, I don't have a problem with shallow bunkers on the fairway, and I certainly don't have a problem with golfers managing to hit the green from one. Hitting out of sand is a different kind of challenge from hitting off turf, one which most golfers find more difficult, and therefore adds variety to the game. Really penal bunkers have there place but often the challenge is not going into them rather than getting out of them.

As I say I'm all for variety.

Niall

ps apart for bunkers with "fake" antique sleepers and frilly edges   

[Jason Topp]

Mike:

I agree with your observation but reach the opposite conclusion.  

There is no doubt that for anyone above a 10 (probably a 5) shallow fairway bunkers extract a significant penalty.  For scratch players, bunkers that contain Ohio's best bleached sand and that are kept firm provide a better opportunity for an approach than many lies in the rough.

To me, these facts suggest that fairway bunkers should be deep rather than shallow.  Deep fairway bunkers have a significant impact on the low handicap player but for the high handicapper the result of the next shot will likely be similar in either event - a shot that escapes but does not advance much.

I tend to think the opposite approach makes sense for greenside bunkers.  I think deep greenside bunkers provide only a modestly more difficult shot than shallow greenside bunkers for a low handicap player.  For higher handicaps, deep bunkers are death traps.  I would make the greenside bunkers more shallow as a general rule.  I like greenside bunkers that provide an option of putting out of them because a high handicap can escape and a low handicap will almost never use that option because it is difficult to get it up and down that way.  

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