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Patrick_Mucci

An architect's dilema ?
« on: September 16, 2009, 08:08:43 PM »
If an architect leaves the fronts of his greens wide open is he almost required to create difficult to severe putting surfaces to defend the hole ?

Fronting hazards and steep fronting elevations are wonderful defenses at the green, but, absent those features, with wide open fronts, what's left in the way defending features at the green ?

Was Donald Ross an expert at this ?

Adam Clayman

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Re: An architect's dilema ?
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2009, 08:45:27 PM »
How would the original 16th @ Augusta rate with the creek in play on the right? Or the 17th @ Hoylake with OB just off the putting surface? Two other ways to defend the hole without necessarily having interior contours galore.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Michael Moore

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Re: An architect's dilema ?
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2009, 08:48:09 PM »
Bunkers on the sides.
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Chip Gaskins

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Re: An architect's dilema ?
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2009, 09:08:42 PM »
Bandon Trails #3 and #17 work pretty well.


Jeff_Brauer

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Re: An architect's dilema ?
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2009, 09:21:42 PM »
Patrick,

Another good philosophical question.

My good philosophical answer is no, not really.  You only need to "defend" the green against good players.  Frontal hazards don't bother them much at any reasonable distance - they tend to miss side to side vs. short.  Thus, frontal hazards aren't really good defense for them anyway.  As mentioned, side hazards, green depth, one good spline jutting part way across the green somewhere all can provide challenge as well as difficult contours throughout, at least for some pin locations.

It is hard for me to judge Ross on this.  We have been told that the fronts had to be open in drier, firmer times, and I have no idea whether he was allowing for the longer run of typical approaches back then, being genererous. etc.  For that matter, I don't think I ever read that he favored wild contours.  They were just more contoured in those days than now.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Phil McDade

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Re: An architect's dilema ?
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2009, 09:52:01 PM »
Small greens, with tilt.


Yannick Pilon

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Re: An architect's dilema ?
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2009, 10:06:27 PM »
I have to second Phil here,

The fifteenth green at Garden City is wide open with no bunkers on the side and only a steep side slope to the right.  I can assure you that this is not an easy hole.

Just miss the green to the left, and an up and down for par is very unlikely!

YP
www.yannickpilongolf.com - Golf Course Architecture, Quebec, Canada

Mike McGuire

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Re: An architect's dilema ?
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2009, 10:18:48 PM »
deleted after rereading the question
« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 10:21:11 PM by Mike McGuire »

Peter Pallotta

Re: An architect's dilema ?
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2009, 10:21:45 PM »
Patrick - I think this is one more instance in which the architect who has a hilly, undulating site to work with has a big advantage over one who's working on a flat site. With clever use of the dramatic topography, the first architect can enhance visual deception, e.g. by creating a green site that 'works with' the natural slope of the land such that what appears to be a modestly tilted back to front green (when looked at in the context of the broad surrounds) is actually a dramatically titled back to front green. So the golfer who feels confident in running a ball onto the green and not worrying too much about being above the pin ends up watching as his first putt rolls thirty feet past and off the front of the green. And once that happens, once, the architect and the golf hole have gotten into the golfer's head, and the seemingly benign green-site has become a future house of horrors....

Peter  
« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 10:26:42 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Phil_the_Author

Re: An architect's dilema ?
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2009, 11:51:30 PM »
Tilly was especially good at this. For him it was a combination of the angle of the green's opening oft times being at variance to the direction of play, the undulations in the green and especially the undulations in the green entrances all of which could throw shots in many an unplanned direction.

A great example of this is the 1st hole on Winged Foot WEst. Mike Davis once mentioned to me that he thought this to be the most difficult green in all of major championship golf. This hole undulates in a straight line in a series of rolls from front to back with some side fallings off as well. Becaue the green angles a bit left, when you add in the left-turn to the fairway, any drive played into the left or even the middle of the fairway will leave a shot that comes into this green at an angle. If it strikes into the face of any of the undulations the ball will either spin back and to the right or kick forward and to the right, bringing the rough and right side bunkers into play.

It was for this reason that both Bobby Jones and Espinoza played their drives to the right corner or into the right rough all 6 rounds (two round playoff) during the 1929 Open. They wanted their approach shots to hit the green and bounce straight forward or spin straight back. Not only would this provide them with a better chance of staying on the putting surface but also that their putts would be much straighter.

henrye

Re: An architect's dilema ?
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2009, 12:01:04 AM »
If an architect leaves the fronts of his greens wide open is he almost required to create difficult to severe putting surfaces to defend the hole ?

Fronting hazards and steep fronting elevations are wonderful defenses at the green, but, absent those features, with wide open fronts, what's left in the way defending features at the green ?

Was Donald Ross an expert at this ?

Pat, it makes no difference unless you plan on running the ball up onto the green.  I would suggest (generally) that open fronts add options.  As mentioned earlier, flanking bunkers and pin positions on the sides could toughen it up


Michael Huber

Re: An architect's dilema ?
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2009, 12:05:31 AM »
how about putting some trouble on the backside of the green?

RJ_Daley

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Re: An architect's dilema ?
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2009, 02:38:11 AM »
I have to go with the folks saying green length spines creating the effect of levels or portions of greens within a green and varying side features.  Maybe some having bunkers with their entry at tight mowed into the bowels of the green on some holes, and short steep false sides short mowed into runaway hollows.  It seems to me the Aussie courses like Royal Melbourne fit the model.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Sean_A

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Re: An architect's dilema ?
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2009, 03:12:09 AM »
Slope the green from one front corner the opposite rear corner.  That wide open entrance(and fairway for that matter) is effectively reduced to half that size and maybe less if the ground is firm. 

The green can also be much wider than it is deep - again placing an emphasis on ball control and gaining the correct angle of approach. 

The wide open front is grade level but the green rises to the rear so there are steep drop offs to the sides.  Sort of a ramp leading to a volcano effect.

The good old fashion blind shot to a generous landing zone short of the green. 

Punch bowl green and its many variations. 

Water hazard to the rear of the green - think Sligo's 13th. 

Raised green which favours an aerial approach, but isn't so steep that a very flat, well controlled approach can't work.

A bunker to the middle rear with two main areas of the green going to either side and the a thin bit (just enough space for a hole location) in front of the bunker connecting the two areas.

Ciao   
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Patrick_Mucci

Re: An architect's dilema ?
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2009, 07:45:31 AM »
Jeff Brauer,

What thwarts the golfer more in terms of approach, recovery and putting, a 12 to 6 spine, a 9 to 3 spine or diagonal spines in the green ?

Adam Clayman

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Re: An architect's dilema ?
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2009, 08:38:00 AM »
I'm a huge fan of the little pimple or noses that guard some great greens here on the prairie. But as has been intimated firmness is key to how much these subtle features affect the magnitude of outcome.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Kirk Gill

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Re: An architect's dilema ?
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2009, 12:05:18 PM »
I agree, Adam. I like the randomness those bumps create for the player who lands short of the green. Rather than the somewhat static penalty of a bunker, the player could bound onto the green, be rejected backwards, or sent to either side.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

C. Squier

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Re: An architect's dilema ?
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2009, 12:07:23 PM »
Tilt the green away from the player and it becomes the most beguiling green on the course.  No matter what club the player has in their hands.

Tim Nugent

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Re: An architect's dilema ?
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2009, 12:47:44 PM »
Jeff hits it on the head, proficient golfers don't concern themselves w/frontal hazards for the most part.  Plus, golf is predominently an air game these days (with much shorter grass) so reflecting on Ross etc. is just an exercise in nostalga.  Rarely do we see players intentially playing a bump and run from iron distances.  Most run-ons are on longer approach shots (for many different reasons - and most no good ones).  So, we can surmise that the only players who have need for wide, unencumbered approaches are the same ones who are fearful of frontal hazards.  So, why add insult to injury and give them addition grief when they finally get on the green. 

Actually, it is more prudent for the architect to arrive at a solution that can, at the same time, be as forgiving for the less proficent player while challanging the better better player.  This is evidenced by a pencent for back to front sloping greens and no bunkers behind greens.  But just as good players would back-spin their shots off the front, we have the problem with water draining to the fronts and saturating the soil in the approaches - leading to a host of other issues.  With the super-short greens and double digit greens speeds, the way  various shots react on putting surfaces are different today than they were 20 years ago, let alone 80.  Putting enough back to front slope to stop a hot run-on isn't prudent in many cases.  Not only will putts carry off the front of the green, but the popped up rears of the greens look foolish.  So architects now tend to put ridges and decks into greens to provide some backstop while leaving the rest of the green at managable slopes.  These ridges and decks also partition the various areas of the greens requiring the more proficient players to be more precise with their aerial attack.
Coasting is a downhill process

Niall C

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Re: An architect's dilema ?
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2009, 01:58:18 PM »
Slope the green from one front corner the opposite rear corner.  That wide open entrance(and fairway for that matter) is effectively reduced to half that size and maybe less if the ground is firm. 

The green can also be much wider than it is deep - again placing an emphasis on ball control and gaining the correct angle of approach. 

The wide open front is grade level but the green rises to the rear so there are steep drop offs to the sides.  Sort of a ramp leading to a volcano effect.

The good old fashion blind shot to a generous landing zone short of the green. 

Punch bowl green and its many variations. 

Water hazard to the rear of the green - think Sligo's 13th. 

Raised green which favours an aerial approach, but isn't so steep that a very flat, well controlled approach can't work.

A bunker to the middle rear with two main areas of the green going to either side and the a thin bit (just enough space for a hole location) in front of the bunker connecting the two areas.

Ciao   

Sean

Some interesting ideas. The 6th at Kingsbarns has 3 of them, namely blind approach (depending on angle), water hazard to rear and punch bowl type green for rear pin location. You could argue that the green doesn't have a wide opening but considering its a short par 4 I think the length of the approacgh shot has to be taken into account.

Having said that, I believe Mr Doak expressed some reservations about it on Kyle Hendersons recent KB thread.

Niall

Patrick_Mucci

Re: An architect's dilema ?
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2009, 07:18:02 PM »
I have to second Phil here,

The fifteenth green at Garden City is wide open with no bunkers on the side and only a steep side slope to the right. 
I can assure you that this is not an easy hole.

Yannick, at about 440 or more, with a significant cross bunker cut into an elevated plateau, with a green that falls sharply from high left to low right, with bunkers short right of the green, it's a very difficult hole, especially with crossing or head winds.

But, that hole follows the natural terrain and drains accordingly.


Just miss the green to the left, and an up and down for par is very unlikely!

Playing short isn't a viable solution for making par either as the chip/pitch is extremely difficult as is putting.

But, again, the surrounding terrain and drainage must match the slope.


YP

Patrick_Mucci

Re: An architect's dilema ?
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2009, 07:20:49 PM »

Tilt the green away from the player and it becomes the most beguiling green on the course.  No matter what club the player has in their hands.



Clint, that only works if the surrounding terrain permits and the drainage is accomodated.

You can't have a green that slopes to a low point where the water has nowhere to go.

Unless you want to spend significant amounts of money you can't alter the surrounding terrain so easily.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: An architect's dilema ?
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2009, 07:34:55 PM »
Jeff Brauer,

What thwarts the golfer more in terms of approach, recovery and putting, a 12 to 6 spine, a 9 to 3 spine or diagonal spines in the green ?

Pat,

Since I have more of an interest in setting up a shot for golfers to accomplish, (or not) I vote for the diagonal spline, which makes the approach shot play differently every day. That said, I have designed greens with both 12-6 and 3-9.  Off hand, I think the 3-9 is toughest, since its basically a crowned green that will reject shots. Toughest doesn't equate with best, though, at least IMHO.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Patrick_Mucci

Re: An architect's dilema ?
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2009, 09:03:24 PM »

Jeff hits it on the head, proficient golfers don't concern themselves w/frontal hazards for the most part. 


I'd strenously disagree with that premise, even at the Pro level.
However, I don't want to context the discussion at the Pro level since golf courses get played on a daily basis, not by the Pros, but by a cross section of golfers, weighted toward the mediocre to poor player.


Plus, golf is predominently an air game these days (with much shorter grass) so reflecting on Ross etc. is just an exercise in nostalga. 

You're clearly living in a dream world or playing on the PGA Tour.
While golfers try to "go aerial" most are incapable of flighting the ball to the green.


Rarely do we see players intentially playing a bump and run from iron distances. 

That's a misrepresentation of the approach shot for many if not most golfers
Many, if not most golfers land short of the green, hoping their ball will roll onto the green.
That's not a bump and run shot, that's a full shot.

In addition, when conditions are soft, nothing is going to run anywhere.
The lush, green mentality prevents most roll


Most run-ons are on longer approach shots (for many different reasons - and most no good ones). 
So, we can surmise that the only players who have need for wide, unencumbered approaches are the same ones who are fearful of frontal hazards.

Really ?  So tell me how do you approach a front hole location ?
How do you approach a front hole location when conditions are firm ?


So, why add insult to injury and give them addition grief when they finally get on the green. 

It's a matter of "ying" and "yang".
When the approach is benign, in order to create interest and a degree of difficulty the putting surface must be challenging


Actually, it is more prudent for the architect to arrive at a solution that can, at the same time, be as forgiving for the less proficent player while challanging the better better player. 

That's exactly what this configuration does, it equalizes the abilities since putting doesn't require power or strength.


This is evidenced by a pencent for back to front sloping greens and no bunkers behind greens. 

I think that's more of a drainage issue.


But just as good players would back-spin their shots off the front, we have the problem with water draining to the fronts and saturating the soil in the approaches - leading to a host of other issues.

I play at a course built in 1927 that drains spectacularly, with only two greens that run front to back (where countless member suggestions have been to rebuild it back to front.)  The greens transition, seemlessly out of the fairway.  Some are elevated above the fairway.
This course is NOT build on a sand base.
In over 50 years of play, the approaches have never been saturated from prior rainfall.  The only time the approaches were wet was when too much water was deliberately applied by a previous superintendent to keep the course lush and green.

For some reason,  those old dead guys knew how to build greens and approaches and manage, direct and divert surface water such that it didn't become a playing impediment.

Before automated sprinkler systems, most fairways and approaches were greenish, brownish, yellowish as the season wore on and water costs were minimal.


With the super-short greens and double digit greens speeds, the way various shots react on putting surfaces are different today than they were 20 years ago, let alone 80. 

I'd like to know the names of 10 courses that maintain their greens throughout the year at consistent double digit speeds.
I think those speeds are more of a myth than a daily reality.


Putting enough back to front slope to stop a hot run-on isn't prudent in many cases.  Not only will putts carry off the front of the green, but the popped up rears of the greens look foolish.  So architects now tend to put ridges and decks into greens to provide some backstop while leaving the rest of the green at managable slopes.  These ridges and decks also partition the various areas of the greens requiring the more proficient players to be more precise with their aerial attack.

Could you list 10 courses where the configuration you describe exists ?


Patrick_Mucci

Re: An architect's dilema ?
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2009, 09:16:05 PM »
Jeff Brauer,

What thwarts the golfer more in terms of approach, recovery and putting, a 12 to 6 spine, a 9 to 3 spine or diagonal spines in the green ?

Pat,

Since I have more of an interest in setting up a shot for golfers to accomplish, (or not) I vote for the diagonal spline, which makes the approach shot play differently every day. That said, I have designed greens with both 12-6 and 3-9.  Off hand, I think the 3-9 is toughest, since its basically a crowned green that will reject shots. Toughest doesn't equate with best, though, at least IMHO.


In my limited observations, it seems that the 3-9 becomes more difficult configuration as the spine is moved further back in the green, with danger lurking long.

Most approach shots come up short and when the spine or plateau is located further back in the green, reaching the hole location beyond the spine or up on the plateau seems to be the most demanding and difficult to approach.  In addition, it's also difficult to recover to.
Lastly, it's not easy to putt to either.

I've also noticed an unusual configuration on greens open at the front and that is wings or tiers at the flanks.
They're configured such that a shot, intentional or errant that uses the open front, is usually left with a long challenging putt to the flanking hole location.

This presents an interesting dilema for the golfer.
When hole locations are at the flanks, the golfer must decide, take the safe route to the center of the green, either aerially or along the ground, or attack the isolated and dangerous hole location at the flank.  This seems to be the most difficult when the hole location is at the front flank or back flank.

It's very rare that I see a wide open green with a pancake flat green.
The absence of that configuration would seem to be the key to the architectural code