Swinley Forest - not quite as good as I had hoped

[Scott Warren]

Didn't Colt refer to Swinley as "my least bad course"?

[Mark_F]

Didn't Colt refer to Swinley as "my least bad course"?

Which means what?

[Scott Warren]

If I read it correctly, that he rated it his best course...

[Mark_F]

If I read it correctly, that he rated it his best course...

You might want to think outside the square a little bit.

Since you appear to be fond of glibly quoting architects, you may want to look up what MacKenzie said about Augusta.

And what Clayton said about Barnbougle, for that matter.

[Brian Phillips]

The Colt quote is a positive quote and Swinley a course that he apparently was very fond and proud of.  Colt was involved right from the start with Davey who apparently first came up with the idea of the course.  In fact it is rumoured that both Davey and Colt came up with the idea themselves to build the course where it is today not just Davey.  Apparently Davey was not much of a golfer so, it is implied that Colt had the first idea of building the course not Davey.

Colt was given permission from the Sunningdale board to pursue the project after he told the board about the project in one of their meetings in May 1909.

The quote mentioned is even used on the front of the history book of Swinley called - "Swinley Special - One hundred years of Harry Colt's 'Least bad course'"

[Rich Goodale]

Didn't Colt refer to Swinley as "my least bad course"?

Which means what?

To me, Mark and Scott, this is an ironic admission of relative failure.  I would be surprised if the well-educated Colt did not know of the "philosophy of the imperfect" which says, in the words of Ruskin:

"....no good work whatever can be perfect, and the demand for perfection is always a sign of a misunderstanding of the ends of art....no great man ever stops working until he has reached his point of failure; that is to say, his mind is always far in advance of his powers of execution......

Accept this then for a universal law, that neither architecture nor any other noble work of man can be good unless it be imperfect."

Swinley is excluded from the patheon of great courses because it is not intellectually stretched enough to be enough imperfect, which is what I think Colt was trying to say.

[Brian Phillips]

Rihc,

You are soooo deep. 

[Rich Goodale]

Rihc,

You are soooo deep. 

I know, Brian.

It is a burden I bear cheerfully.

[Bob_Huntley]

Rihc,

You are soooo deep. 

I know, Brian.

It is a burden I bear cheerfully.

Rihc,

Yes, but how many angels can get on the end of a pin?

Bob

[Rich Goodale]

Rihc,

You are soooo deep. 

I know, Brian.

It is a burden I bear cheerfully.

Rihc,

Yes, but how many angels can get on the end of a pin?

Bob

Many apologies, Bob, but that information is available only to full members of the SDS (Soooo Deep Society).

[Tony_Muldoon]

the words of Ruskin:

"....no good work whatever can be perfect, and the demand for perfection is always a sign of a misunderstanding of the ends of art....no great man ever stops working until he has reached his point of failure; that is to say, his mind is always far in advance of his powers of execution......

Accept this then for a universal law, that neither architecture nor any other noble work of man can be good unless it be imperfect."

 

Thanks Rich I enjoyed that and see its relevance however you are torturing language with your explanation.

an ironic admission of relative failure.  

not intellectually stretched enough to be enough imperfect, which is what I think Colt was trying to say.

I think Colt expressed himself far more clearly than that.


"my least bad course"

Swinley was his “first” course and perhaps the only one where he had total control over all elements.  From then on he used his team with all the compromises that entails.  Colt was a modest man and you won’t find him trumpeting his achievements.  I interpret it as a positive statement.  It would have been fascinating to ask him why he expressed it in that way.

 FWIW I think the only course mentioned on this thread that  I might rank clearly above it, is Sunningdale Old.  It’s the perfect Heathland Jewel, small yet perfectly satisfying (and a minor flaw or two for those who care to look ).  If only this model had been taken up for the future of Golf we’d all be playing and enjoying more.

[Scott Warren]

I think Tony is on the money. It's a pretty straightforward statement. I headed out to Joshua Tree with a bag of magic mushrooms to try to make sense of Rich's philospophy but I think the disconnection between that and Colt's statement is that he doesn't make mention of perfection being attained or even sought.

My least bad course.

Remove the playful double negative and it's "my most good course".

In any case, all golfers are more than entitled to list the courses they have played in whichever order they played, regardless of whether or not the designer of the courses agrees.

[Mark Chaplin]

Swinley is a classic example of a private club where the members are very comfortable with their course and surroundings. Visitors are strictly limited and they do not put themselves forward for rankings and assessments.

Whether the course matches expectations is a matter of personal taste but we should celebrate an original course that hasn't changed with the times to cater for technology. Swinley is unique in England and IMHO should be celebrated for exactly the same reasons as we criticise ANGC and the likes of Wentworth.

[Rich Goodale]

Tony (and Scott and Mark)

I was not trying to improve on Colt's statement, just trying to interpret it.  It could mean many things, including my speculations.  BTW, Tony, "least bad" and "most good" are two very different propositions.  As a lawyer, Colt would have been inclined to be very precise in his language.

I continue to believe that it is a unique and great golfing experience but not a great golf course.  You should know that when I say the latter, I believe that by my standards there are only 20-30 "great" golf courses in the world, with the number probably closer to 20 than 30.  I'm not at all dissing Swinley, just trying to express my view as to where it most comfortably sits when we are talking Club and/or architecture.

I also continue to be intrigued by the "philosophy of the imperfect" and how it might relate to GCA.  Do we love the Old Course more or less because it has so many imperfetions?  Does the 16th at Dornoch demean or enhance the course?  Do even the greatest of modern architects err on the side of perfection rather than accepting imperfection for a variety of reasons, including but not limited to:  client pressures; relatively unlimited budgets; hubris, etc.?

Any and all others are fully free to disagree.

[Tom MacWood]

Colt was just being exceedingly modest, which was his nature.

[Rich Goodale]

Have you played Swinley, Tom.  If so, you might understand why many observers believe that his modesty in his case could have been justified, rather than excessive.  If not, you are just pissing into the wind.

[BCrosby]

I tend to agree with Rich about SF. I think Colt meant what he said. SF is a fun, but modest course. Colt must have known that. After all, he had some notion of the quality of his other, stronger courses.

What SF does have is a view from its delightful clubhouse that is beyond compare. It is stunning, the best I've seen. A broad, beautiful vista looking down on the joined 1st and 18th fw's. Better view than even ANGC from the clubhouse. Having lunch with good companions on the patio with that view before you is something I will never forget.

Bob

P.S. Actually, the "angels on the head of a pin" debate was a big issue in the old realists vs. nominalists debates five or six hundred years ago. But it's like a good story that that always falls flat on the retelling. And I'm not going to try to retell it. Maybe you had to be there.
 

[BCrosby]

On a somewhat related note, why do the big London courses tend to have so may great par 3's and relatively few really good par 4's and 5's?

Woking seems to be the big exception to that. It's strength is its par 4's. Perhaps Sunny Old and New are also exceptions. Or am I missing something?

Bob

 

[Tom MacWood]

Have you played Swinley, Tom.  If so, you might understand why many observers believe that his modesty in his case could have been justified, rather than excessive.  If not, you are just pissing into the wind.

Rich
Did you get up on the wrong side of the bed this mourning? No I have not, but I have spent a good bit of time and effort studying the man and his architecture, and Colt was a very modest individual (you might take a lessen from him). Colt admitted later in life that Swinley was his favorite course. When an architect is asked what is his best design or designs, its often very difficult for him answer the question honestly without offending a large number of clients and former clients, especially for an architect as high profile and prolific as Colt. This was his very delicate way of saying Swinley was his favorite. By the way do you know when and where these comments were made?

[Rich Goodale]

Same side of the bed as usual.  If you have not played or even seen the course I do not value your opinions on it, so please do not be distressed if I do not answer any of your questions above.

[Tom MacWood]

I have never expressed my opinion of the course, only my opinion of Colt and Colt's opinion of the course.

[Rich Goodale]

Tom

 

Rich

PS--this is my polite way of saying, "Have a nice day!"

 

[Brian Phillips]

Rich,

What is Colt's best course?

[Rich Goodale]

Rich,

What is Colt's best course?

Brian

I haven't a clue, because I've played only a few of them, but of the ones I have played that he has reportedly touched I'd put Muirfield, the Eden and Rye ahead of Swinley Forest, with Alwoodley on a par.

How about you?

Rich

[henrye]

Tom, I would agree with your understanding of Colt's quote.  It is certainnly not unreasonable that he felt Swinley was his best work.  I think it is excellent (better than Rye).  Whether it's top 50 or 80 in the world - I have no idea, just that it is a very enjoyable golf course.  Sure the clubhouse is nice, but the course is definitely what makes the club.  Different strokes for different folks I guess.