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Dean Stokes

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Walker cup team - is it time?
« on: September 14, 2009, 06:15:20 PM »
Another thrashing for the GB and I team this year, 16.5 - 9.5.

34 - 7 - 1 overall.

When does the team selection become like the Ryder Cup ie. the European countries are added to the GB and I team?

With the strength of the college system in America and the size difference (population)  between the US and GB & I (Scotland, England, Ireland and Wales) it has to be about time this change was made.

What say ye? Am I way off the mark with my thinking here?
Living The Dream in The Palm Beaches....golfing, yoga-ing, horsing around and working damn it!!!!!!!

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker cup team - is it time?
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2009, 06:19:13 PM »
The last six matches are dead even.  GB&I won 1999-2001-2003, USA won 2005-2007 by one single point in incredibly exciting matches, and now USA wins an easy one, the first in 12 years.

Sure, the lifetime record is very lopsided, but not the recent past.  I'd say leave it as is.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker cup team - is it time?
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2009, 11:46:40 AM »
The last six matches are dead even.  GB&I won 1999-2001-2003, USA won 2005-2007 by one single point in incredibly exciting matches, and now USA wins an easy one, the first in 12 years.

Sure, the lifetime record is very lopsided, but not the recent past.  I'd say leave it as is.

Damn it Bill,

You're going to get booted from GCA.com if you keep making logical, well thought out, fact-based posts like this!!!  ;D

Rich Goodale

Re: Walker cup team - is it time?
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2009, 12:01:15 PM »
I think adding in the continental Euros is a good idea, particularly if you want to keep the event as a a sort of debutante party for incipient pros rather than a competition between true amateurs.

TEPaul

Re: Walker cup team - is it time?
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2009, 12:12:48 PM »
Richard The Magnificent:

I wish you'd posted that debutante remark before the Walker Cup was over so I could've had the opportunity to tell Rickie Fowler he was one of the best debutantes in recent memory. It wouldn've been interesting to see and hear his reaction to that.

I did get the opportunity to ask him after a practice round what he thought of Merion East and if he had ever played a course like it. His response was: "Not really." When I asked him again what he thought of it, he just said: "Like anything else it's just a matter of fairways and greens and having the opportunity to make some birdie putts."

What could anyone say to that other than "Good point?"

The kid went 4-0 and I believe he's turning pro this week, but you're right Ricardo, he was one helluva amateur debutante! Do you think he's already lost his innocence and his golfing virginity or do you think that's about to happen to him once he actaully hits the professional ranks?  ;)

Rory Connaughton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker cup team - is it time?
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2009, 12:29:21 PM »
If you change the participants, its no longer the Walker Cup. Its the best golf event there is played on the best courses.  So what if the participants are pros to be. Where else could you come into contact with the character that is Stiggy Hodgson, the toughest SOB in the entire event (if not the most talented).   LEAVE IT ALONE

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker cup team - is it time?
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2009, 12:32:15 PM »
Richard The Magnificent:

I wish you'd posted that debutante remark before the Walker Cup was over so I could've had the opportunity to tell Rickie Fowler he was one of the best debutantes in recent memory. It wouldn've been interesting to see and hear his reaction to that.

I did get the opportunity to ask him after a practice round what he thought of Merion East and if he had ever played a course like it. His response was: "Not really." When I asked him again what he thought of it, he just said: "Like anything else it's just a matter of fairways and greens and having the opportunity to make some birdie putts."

What could anyone say to that other than "Good point?"

The kid went 4-0 and I believe he's turning pro this week, but you're right Ricardo, he was one helluva amateur debutante! Do you think he's already lost his innocence and his golfing virginity or do you think that's about to happen to him once he actaully hits the professional ranks?  ;)

Tom, I think he was 3-1 at Royal County Down as a college freshman, that kid can really play.

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker cup team - is it time?
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2009, 12:35:19 PM »
Ryder Cup - money making exercise.

Walker Cup - R&A and USGA amateur team event played on the finest venues. Reasons to change the format - none.
Cave Nil Vino

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker cup team - is it time?
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2009, 12:35:52 PM »
If you change the participants, its no longer the Walker Cup. Its the best golf event there is played on the best courses.  So what if the participants are pros to be. Where else could you come into contact with the character that is Stiggy Hodgson, the toughest SOB in the entire event (if not the most talented).   LEAVE IT ALONE

I'm wiith you on every thought, Rory.  And yes, Stiggy, what a character.  I love the GB&I kids, they showed a lot of grit in the face of an admittedly superior group of US players this time.   Since the R&A are so involved in the Walker Cup, I don't really see a Euro team in the future.  

Dean Stokes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker cup team - is it time?
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2009, 04:39:33 PM »
If you change the participants, its no longer the Walker Cup. Its the best golf event there is played on the best courses.  So what if the participants are pros to be. Where else could you come into contact with the character that is Stiggy Hodgson, the toughest SOB in the entire event (if not the most talented).   LEAVE IT ALONE
Is the Ryder Cup still the Ryder Cup since they changed the participants to make the event fairer/a more even competition?
Living The Dream in The Palm Beaches....golfing, yoga-ing, horsing around and working damn it!!!!!!!

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker cup team - is it time?
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2009, 04:45:56 PM »
I thought that the Walker Cup was "Oklahoma State University" versus an international team. ;D

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker cup team - is it time?
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2009, 04:54:31 PM »
If you change the participants, its no longer the Walker Cup. Its the best golf event there is played on the best courses.  So what if the participants are pros to be. Where else could you come into contact with the character that is Stiggy Hodgson, the toughest SOB in the entire event (if not the most talented).   LEAVE IT ALONE
Is the Ryder Cup still the Ryder Cup since they changed the participants to make the event fairer/a more even competition?

Dean, with regard to the level of competition between US and GB&I teams, please see my post #1.

The Ryder Cup is much more a commercial enterprise, the addition of the Euros made sense.

The Walker Cup is an amateur competition and so long as it is competitive, there's really no need to open it up.  IMHO at least.

K. Krahenbuhl

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker cup team - is it time?
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2009, 04:56:30 PM »
The Walker Cup is an amateur competition and so long as it is competitive, there's really no need to open it up.  IMHO at least.

Agreed...although a Walker Cup at Morfontaine would be fun.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker cup team - is it time?
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2009, 10:30:56 PM »
Stiggy is not in any way, shape or form a "character."  I was in the interview room on Saturday when he, Gavin Dear and Captain Dalgleish went through the paces.  Stiggy is a self-described competitor, up from an underprivileged background, who got his nickname from a cartoon back in his youth.  He talked about how he fell into a skid (a garbage bin) when with his dad and came out with a club.  He and golf were joined and yes, he still has the club.  Good story, hard-nosed and focused competitor, polite and direct young man (19 who looks 14) but in no way a character.
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Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker cup team - is it time?
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2009, 10:48:44 PM »
I walked with the Stiggy group when he birdied #15 on Saturday.  Wow, the kid is good.  He took a line off the tee that only the big boys take, then stuck an iron and drained the putt.  What can you say, even these amateur are so good it make all this architecture talk seem meaningless.  I mean they put a peg in the ground, hit it 300 dead straight, shot it straight at the pin and then have a putting contest.  After watching the Walker Cup I realized the best golfers in the world really can't be challenged without goofy set ups with 5 inch rough, pins on edges, sharp edge water hazards, 14 stimp greens, etc.  I stood in awe after watching these 19 year olds, though not shoot mid 60s, pretty much own the place.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker cup team - is it time?
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2009, 11:08:28 PM »
Stiggy is not in any way, shape or form a "character."  I was in the interview room on Saturday when he, Gavin Dear and Captain Dalgleish went through the paces.  Stiggy is a self-described competitor, up from an underprivileged background, who got his nickname from a cartoon back in his youth.  He talked about how he fell into a skid (a garbage bin) when with his dad and came out with a club.  He and golf were joined and yes, he still has the club.  Good story, hard-nosed and focused competitor, polite and direct young man (19 who looks 14) but in no way a character.

Sorry, Ronald, but anyone who can tell a tale on himself about falling into a dumpster (skid) in that accent is a character by definition.  Nothing pejorative about being a character, it's a bonus actually.

Rory Connaughton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walker cup team - is it time?
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2009, 09:56:05 AM »
Dean I think that from the GB&I perspective being selected for the Walker Cup team is akin to being selected to the British & Irish Lions in rugby.  As in rugby, the GB&I team is selected from among the unions of the four home nations.  As you know, these golfers compete against each other in individual amateur events but also on behalf of their respective nations in the home internationals from school boy level up and the Walker Cup gives them the opportunity to come together for one special event.  The British and Irish Lions might have more success on their Southern Hemisphere tours if they included the French but the point is that the guys from the home unions who spend three years trying to beat up on on another come together for the tour.  It is the selection that is the honor and I can guarantee that none of them would want to change the nature of the team simply to give them a better chance to win.  I believe that same ethic exists with respect to the GB&I team when it comes to the Walker Cup.  As with their counterparts in rugby, these players have one or two chances to compete in this format. They don't carry the weight of the overall record. To them it is about their opportunity to represent the home nations.

Martin Toal

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Re: Walker cup team - is it time?
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2009, 11:17:51 AM »
Stiggy is not in any way, shape or form a "character."  I was in the interview room on Saturday when he, Gavin Dear and Captain Dalgleish went through the paces.  Stiggy is a self-described competitor, up from an underprivileged background, who got his nickname from a cartoon back in his youth.  He talked about how he fell into a skid (a garbage bin) when with his dad and came out with a club.  He and golf were joined and yes, he still has the club.  Good story, hard-nosed and focused competitor, polite and direct young man (19 who looks 14) but in no way a character.

Sorry, Ronald, but anyone who can tell a tale on himself about falling into a dumpster (skid) in that accent is a character by definition.  Nothing pejorative about being a character, it's a bonus actually.

Being a character is fine. It really depends what adjective proceeds the word. The story about the dumpster is this:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stig_of_the_Dump

As to the question of reforming the WC, I think that is premature. In the last few Ryder, Walker and even Solheim Cups, some of the overall scores have exaggerated the differences between the teams. Seems like when the winning team gets momentum on the last day, the final score really opens up.

2004 and 2006 Ryder Cups were both won 18.5 to 9.5 by Europe, then 2008 16.5 to 11.5 by the US. That is a 14 point shift (from -9 to +5).

In reality, the differences between the teams in terms of underlying strength and ability were exaggerated by all of those scores.

So too does the recent Walker Cup result exaggerate the differences. I wonder if one factor may be also that more of the European amateurs turn pro without going to a US college, thus sacrificing eligibility for the WC. If McIlroy had gone to a US college, he would have been in this years side. Likewise Shane Lowry, who won a full field event on the Euro Tour this year, would have been a cert.

However, it is true that players like the Molinaris and Matteo Manassero would be assets to a EU team!
« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 11:19:46 AM by Martin Toal »

Mark Pearce

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Re: Walker cup team - is it time?
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2009, 11:19:32 AM »
Indeed, had Lowry not won the Irish Open he may well have played this pasty weekend.
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Bill_McBride

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Re: Walker cup team - is it time?
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2009, 11:30:14 AM »
Stiggy is not in any way, shape or form a "character."  I was in the interview room on Saturday when he, Gavin Dear and Captain Dalgleish went through the paces.  Stiggy is a self-described competitor, up from an underprivileged background, who got his nickname from a cartoon back in his youth.  He talked about how he fell into a skid (a garbage bin) when with his dad and came out with a club.  He and golf were joined and yes, he still has the club.  Good story, hard-nosed and focused competitor, polite and direct young man (19 who looks 14) but in no way a character.

Sorry, Ronald, but anyone who can tell a tale on himself about falling into a dumpster (skid) in that accent is a character by definition.  Nothing pejorative about being a character, it's a bonus actually.


Being a character is fine. It really depends what adjective proceeds the word. The story about the dumpster is this:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stig_of_the_Dump

As to the question of reforming the WC, I think that is premature. In the last few Ryder, Walker and even Solheim Cups, some of the overall scores have exaggerated the differences between the teams. Seems like when the winning team gets momentum on the last day, the final score really opens up.

2004 and 2006 Ryder Cups were both won 18.5 to 9.5 by Europe, then 2008 16.5 to 11.5 by the US. That is a 14 point shift (from -9 to +5).

In reality, the differences between the teams in terms of underlying strength and ability were exaggerated by all of those scores.

So too does the recent Walker Cup result exaggerate the differences. I wonder if one factor may be also that more of the European amateurs turn pro without going to a US college, thus sacrificing eligibility for the WC. If McIlroy had gone to a US college, he would have been in this years side. Likewise Shane Lowry, who won a full field event on the Euro Tour this year, would have been a cert.

However, it is true that players like the Molinaris and Matteo Manassero would be assets to a EU team!


Martin, what does attending a US college have to do with the eligibility of a GB&I player who hasn't turned pro?  You lost me there.   Rory played very well for the GB&I side at RCD and then turned pro.

Rory Connaughton

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Re: Walker cup team - is it time?
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2009, 11:36:31 AM »
Bill:

  I think the theory is that the top ams in GB&I turn pro earlier than their US counterparts because they are generally not in school until age 22 or 23 like many of the US players.

Martin Toal

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Re: Walker cup team - is it time?
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2009, 11:38:50 AM »
What I mean is that US players are more likely to stick around as amateurs longer while at college, thus remaining eligible for the WC, compared to some UK and I players who turn pro earlier.

This may contribute to the apparent gulf in ability between the sides because some otherwise eligible UK and I players have forfeited the chance to take part by leaving the amateur ranks. Same happens to some US players, but perhaps fewer.

Edit: What Rory said.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Walker cup team - is it time?
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2009, 11:52:35 AM »
Can't argue with either Martin or Rory about the tendency of the UK guys to go out early.

Of course Tiger only spent what, one year at Stanford?  It's all economics.

I do think the past six Walker Cup results do show the teams rather evenly matched and certainly the exciting matches have shown that.  I think it's very premature to consider expanding the GB&I team, and doubt the R&A is doing so.

The amazing thing to me is how well the US players handled the links game at Newcastle, although they all hit the ball so far and so high that there wasn't a ton of ground game on display.  But when they had to have it, you'd think they played on links every day!

Rory Connaughton

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Re: Walker cup team - is it time?
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2009, 12:10:22 PM »
Bill
  You make an interesting observation regarding the US performance at RCD.  Apparently, the GB&I players elected to use their own caddies rather than the local caddies.  Course knowledge was certainly a factor when Moore hit the perfect 4 iron from 252 to set up the eagle putt that won it.  If you recall once the ball landed, it hit a small mound on the right side of the fairway which propelled the ball another 80 yards or so directly in the line of the flag. The ball ended up 4 feet from the cup.  I suspect his caddy played an important role in the selection of that shot (perhaps the greatest I have ever seen).

Bill_McBride

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Re: Walker cup team - is it time?
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2009, 04:12:30 PM »
Bill
  You make an interesting observation regarding the US performance at RCD.  Apparently, the GB&I players elected to use their own caddies rather than the local caddies.  Course knowledge was certainly a factor when Moore hit the perfect 4 iron from 252 to set up the eagle putt that won it.  If you recall once the ball landed, it hit a small mound on the right side of the fairway which propelled the ball another 80 yards or so directly in the line of the flag. The ball ended up 4 feet from the cup.  I suspect his caddy played an important role in the selection of that shot (perhaps the greatest I have ever seen).

I couldn't see the mound you mention, Rory, because I was about five paces directly behind young Jonathan when he struck that incredible shot!

I've never seen a better shot under pressure, or certainly not one of such importance!

We raced up there after Jonathan and I was surprised to see how quickly and somewhat nonchalantly he knocked in that four footer.  What a finish!

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