Lessons from the Walker Cup

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Joe Logan speaks with Mike Davis of the USGA:

www.myphillygolf.com/detail.asp?id=1510&pid=11

[Dan Boerger]

Thanks for this Steve ... glad to see the powers-that-be didn't think #3 should play 250 yards plus. Sure it's a large green, but without any runup it's hardly receptive for a shot of that length -- even for those freaks that are professionals.

[Phil McDade]

A few questions, based on a very limited sample of viewing Merion East on the GC this weekend:

-- Will the USGA continue the practice at the US Open of mowing some greens differently than others due to slope and speed issues? The telecast said 12 green was cut slower than others; were there others, or are there candidates for this? Should it be done, or should green speeds for the US Open be consistent, regardless of slope issues?

-- Merion seemed to have a high ying and yang factor (for lack of a better term -- a high beta?) -- holes that seemed relatively easy (fairway wood/wedge, esp. on front nine), but then holes where severe penalties lurked very close to the playing corridors (like 14 and 15,with OB just a few steps it seemed from the fairway rough). Is this how it will likely play for the US Open? The Open has always seemed to be a slog -- guys grinding out pars, largely seeking to avoid making bogeys and avoiding big numbers than attacking the course in any way (though this is changing somewhat under Davis). Merion seems like it may play much differently.

--I saw some real dart-throwing (to borrow Davis' phrase) on those greens from a group of players -- admittedly good -- that are not the caliber of player we'll see at the US Open. A half-serious inquiry -- are there technological advancements that could come down the pike in the next few years that would allow the USGA to put tarps on greens (and not kill them) similar to what baseball does to protect infields during rain delays? If another BBlack weather system (or the one that sat over Philly for most of August) arrives in June of 2013, will the US Open become a contest of closest to the pin?

The course looked great, and I loved in particular the rugged look of some of the nearby surrounds, such as those near the quarry holes and the rough, uneven, high fescue lurking near fairway corridors. But in all honesty, without really, really F&F conditions, and greens stimping at or above Augusta/Oakmont levels, I wonder if this course can stand up to par as has been the tradition of most US Opens. (And maybe that doesn't matter...)

[Dan Boerger]

Phil - You bring up some very good points. Merion is a serious ying/yang course ... and there will be plenty of darts thrown by the pros at 7, 8, 10, 11.  If your goal is to protect part, like it or not, length is the most effective way to do this.

[Bill_McBride]

-- Will the USGA continue the practice at the US Open of mowing some greens differently than others due to slope and speed issues? The telecast said 12 green was cut slower than others; were there others, or are there candidates for this? Should it be done, or should green speeds for the US Open be consistent, regardless of slope issues?

Didn't this start with the 18th green at Southern Hills a few years ago, when that green was gong to be much faster than the other 17 so they changed the mowers just for #18?

I guess that works, but it is really an artificial approach.

[ed_getka]

They certainly won't have the greens at Merion stimping at Augusta/Oakmont levels or there will be a lot of balls rolling off the greens. There is a speed at which the greens command respect but are playable. I'm sure Matt Shaffer knows what that speed is. If #12 or any other hole is maintained differently I'm sure the pros will adjust just fine, they will be putting there for a week. It is not rocket science. Although it may seem so to some pros.

Yes, the pros can go low at Merion, but they are competing against each other to win the tournament so I personally don't care if they win at -16, they will have beat the field.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Sadly the mowing lengths is the best way to protect the architecture as well. Many great greens are not meant to be 10 plus.

[JESII]

Is it more difficult to stop a wedge from spinning too far back on a really soft green? Or to stop an 8 iron from going too far forward on an ideal firm green?    For the guys on TV?

[Joe Bausch]

I was a marshal at the 10th hole yesterday afternoon, fortunate to be stationed just to the right of the back trap.  The tee in the afternoon was moved forward so the hole played 242 yards to the pin, which was front left, and there might have been a slight breeze in their face.

It seemed well over half of the players attempted to land the ball on the front right part of the green and some succeeded.  If the green was really firm, like it was days earlier, I think some shots that hit the green might have minimum rolled into the rough, fringe, or the back trap.  But the pin location was excellent and many of the players 3 putted after hitting the green, a bunch of them missing short putts.

The very first player to play the hole on Sunday afternoon was GBIer Gavin Dear.  He probably used a utility club or something like it to allow him to hit a very high draw that I saw for most of the flight, but not the very end.  I figured it was coming real close to me, and it did:  he was a bit long and right and landed in the high grass and the ball did not move when it landed.   Curiously, in this high grass that was sort of trampled down a bit from traffic, was a big leafy weed-like structure where his ball was 'stuck', the location shown in the pic below by the arrow from a photo I took last week:



As Dear and his caddy come upon the area where I had placed an orange flag to mark the ball, the caddy arrives first and can't really tell where the ball is exactly.  Hence, I point to its specific location within this weedy thing.  Without missing a beat, he looks at Dear and quips:  "You're in the only weed on the entire course."

[JESII]

That's a riot Joe.


There has been talk of this level player attempting to drive 7 and 8. Any examples this weekend from those of you out there?

I can't imagine it any of these guys would try it in a Team event because the risk greatly outweighs the reward, but who knows...

[Sean Leary]

Thanks for this Steve ... glad to see the powers-that-be didn't think #3 should play 250 yards plus. Sure it's a large green, but without any runup it's hardly receptive for a shot of that length -- even for those freaks that are professionals.

Dan,

I don't think this is what he was talking about. He was talking about yesterday from the regular tee....

17 from the back back tee  and back pin almost seemed too much.  I wonder how many actually hit the green.

[JSlonis]

They certainly won't have the greens at Merion stimping at Augusta/Oakmont levels or there will be a lot of balls rolling off the greens. There is a speed at which the greens command respect but are playable. I'm sure Matt Shaffer knows what that speed is. If #12 or any other hole is maintained differently I'm sure the pros will adjust just fine, they will be putting there for a week. It is not rocket science. Although it may seem so to some pros.

Yes, the pros can go low at Merion, but they are competing against each other to win the tournament so I personally don't care if they win at -16, they will have beat the field.

Personally, for the lesser of two evils, I'd rather see the 12th green and perhaps the 15th green a tad slower than the rest compared with changing either of the greens by softening their slopes.

The greens in August for the US Am in 2005 were quite receptive and the overall scoring average was still very high.  It'll be interesting to see the games very best attack the course in 2013.  Obviously course firmness will play a major part but even with that, I honestly have no idea what the scoring range will be. 

[Peter Pallotta]

Is it more difficult to stop a wedge from spinning too far back on a really soft green? Or to stop an 8 iron from going too far forward on an ideal firm green?    For the guys on TV?

Jim - what do you think? What's your experience?

Me, I'm thinking the latter is more difficult, cause some of those tv guys are pretty good at dead-handing their wedges when they have to; but on the other hand, they're also very good at spinning/stopping their 8 irons - though maybe that won't be the case coming out of the rough, in 2013

Peter 

[Tom Dunne]

I followed Gavin Dear start to finish in his first match with Brian Harman. He is L-O-N-G. He nearly drove 10 on Saturday with a hybrid club, and on 18 caught the turbo slope which allowed his drive to run out to about 360. He was the most impressive GB&I player that I saw, not just for his power but for his ability to come back and halve a match after his opponent was dormie on the 17th tee, then go out and beat him 3&2 the next day. Harman was not messing around out there, either.

[JESII]

Is it more difficult to stop a wedge from spinning too far back on a really soft green? Or to stop an 8 iron from going too far forward on an ideal firm green?    For the guys on TV?

Jim - what do you think? What's your experience?

Peter 

I don't know. I'm not very good with an 8 iron and only OK with a wedge.

More than anything, I would like the USGA to not be afraid of 10 or 12 under winning the 2013 Open. Merion has so many little challenges that will make it extremely difficult to shoot under par on the weekend if you are well under par after Fridays round.

[Ronald Montesano]

Gavin Dear was a great interview at the W/C.  He blatantly stated that he has always gone out first, that he loves to go out first for any team (junior, regional national) for which he plays.  Unlike our leadoff hitters in american baseball, the heavy hitter in Dear's mind is the leadoff hitter.  He represented his team very well.

[TEPaul]

RonaldM:

That's interesting and is probably the reason Colin D sent him out first so often.

What I find the most interesting about this Walker Cup which I haven't noticed has been discussed on here to date and that is how and how much the matches went over to the USA side so completely so early on Saturday and Sunday, and how the matches began to turn back to the GB&I side in the middle of the day and then began to filter back to the USA side toward the end on both days. That was either just bizarre, totally coincidental, or perhaps even had something to do with the ability of the two captains to get around to the competitors on the teams and communicate it in some interesting way.

I sure do know Marucci for years and I sure did know who Colin D was this weekend and I've got to say from my vantage point on both days it was Marucci who seemed to be the more ever present with any and all matches of the two both days. Buddy Marucci has always been one of the most competent and accomplished course managers in my decades long experiences with him and perhaps he just ordered a cart that was a whole lot faster than the one Colin Dagleish had!  

One of the most interesting observations on Saturday was Marucci with Drew Weaver waiting on the tee of #17. I think Weaver's match was hanging in the breach at that point as was the potential outcome of the day. Marucci spent a good couple of minutes on the tee gently rubbing the back of Weaver's neck. The time then came for him to hit the tee shot and Weaver proceeded to stick the ball about one foot from the pin for a gimme on that 206 yard shot!

I am not sure if Colin D was on #17 on Sunday when Rickie Fowler's match was conceded to secure the Walker Cup but I know Marucci was because I could see him down there from the 16th green.

[Bill_McBride]

Gavin Dear was a great interview at the W/C.  He blatantly stated that he has always gone out first, that he loves to go out first for any team (junior, regional national) for which he plays.  Unlike our leadoff hitters in american baseball, the heavy hitter in Dear's mind is the leadoff hitter.  He represented his team very well.

Didn't Crenshaw send Tiger out first in the Ryder Cup at Brookline?  I think that's the best strategy, get a point early.

I also remember the National League sending Willie Mays out as leadoff batter in an All Star game back when the National League won more than it lost!

[Phil McDade]

Gavin Dear was a great interview at the W/C.  He blatantly stated that he has always gone out first, that he loves to go out first for any team (junior, regional national) for which he plays.  Unlike our leadoff hitters in american baseball, the heavy hitter in Dear's mind is the leadoff hitter.  He represented his team very well.

Didn't Crenshaw send Tiger out first in the Ryder Cup at Brookline?  I think that's the best strategy, get a point early.

I also remember the National League sending Willie Mays out as leadoff batter in an All Star game back when the National League won more than it lost!

Bill:

Tiger actually went off 6th at Brookline -- middle of the line-up. He drew one of the Euros -- Coltart -- who had sat the first two days. Crenshaw front-loaded his line-up w/ (in order) Lehman, Love, Mickelson, Sutton (who played great that week), and Duval -- all of whom won (as did Tiger in the 6th position), which allowed the U.S. squad to overtake the overnight 4-point Euro lead.

[Kyle Harris]

Sure it's a large green, but without any runup it's hardly receptive for a shot of that length -- even for those freaks that are professionals.

Is it that bad that NOBODY blinked when they read that about this event?

[Pete_Pittock]

Joe,
and now for the rest of the story. Dear hit a magnnificent recovery shot to tap in range and won the hole when his opponent three putted.

[JESII]

Sure it's a large green, but without any runup it's hardly receptive for a shot of that length -- even for those freaks that are professionals.

Is it that bad that NOBODY blinked when they read that about this event?

What's the problem with the best amateurs in the world needing a three wood to get home on a par 3?   It is a gigantic green.

[Bill_McBride]

Gavin Dear was a great interview at the W/C.  He blatantly stated that he has always gone out first, that he loves to go out first for any team (junior, regional national) for which he plays.  Unlike our leadoff hitters in american baseball, the heavy hitter in Dear's mind is the leadoff hitter.  He represented his team very well.

Didn't Crenshaw send Tiger out first in the Ryder Cup at Brookline?  I think that's the best strategy, get a point early.

I also remember the National League sending Willie Mays out as leadoff batter in an All Star game back when the National League won more than it lost!

Bill:

Tiger actually went off 6th at Brookline -- middle of the line-up. He drew one of the Euros -- Coltart -- who had sat the first two days. Crenshaw front-loaded his line-up w/ (in order) Lehman, Love, Mickelson, Sutton (who played great that week), and Duval -- all of whom won (as did Tiger in the 6th position), which allowed the U.S. squad to overtake the overnight 4-point Euro lead.

They say the memory is the second thing that goes! 

[Kalen Braley]

Gavin Dear was a great interview at the W/C.  He blatantly stated that he has always gone out first, that he loves to go out first for any team (junior, regional national) for which he plays.  Unlike our leadoff hitters in american baseball, the heavy hitter in Dear's mind is the leadoff hitter.  He represented his team very well.

Didn't Crenshaw send Tiger out first in the Ryder Cup at Brookline?  I think that's the best strategy, get a point early.

I also remember the National League sending Willie Mays out as leadoff batter in an All Star game back when the National League won more than it lost!

Bill,

Thats putting it nice considering the NL has only won the All-Star game 3 times in the last 22 years...   

[David Stamm]

Is it more difficult to stop a wedge from spinning too far back on a really soft green? Or to stop an 8 iron from going too far forward on an ideal firm green?    For the guys on TV?

Jim - what do you think? What's your experience?

Peter 

I don't know. I'm not very good with an 8 iron and only OK with a wedge.

 

Don't believe it, Peter! His "not very good" or "okay" are, I'm sure, better than most!