[Sean Leary]

Sully,

That makes sense. How do you play 4 in competition when the fairway moves every time?

[JESII]

Poorly, usually in about 6 or 7...although I did make a birdie last time to a back pin by hitting it way down to the end of the fairway on my second...probably 30 yards from the creek...I've probably hit that second fairway about 2 out of 20 tries...

[Mike Sweeney]

Poorly, usually in about 6 or 7...although I did make a birdie last time to a back pin by hitting it way down to the end of the fairway on my second...probably 30 yards from the creek...I've probably hit that second fairway about 2 out of 20 tries...

I am confused by what you said about #2. Do you go for it in two mentally on the tee? Thus it is weak because you can't hit the fairway? Just confused by your post.

PS. For those that have not played with Jim, trust me he is awfully long and at least on one day pretty darn straight.

[JESII]

Mike,

Keep in mind that I think every hole at Merion is somewhere between really good and perfect...so #2 would fall in the really good category...just the weakest at Merion in my opinion.

I think you absolutely have to decide from the tee on a borderline reachable hole if you want to get on in two or not. If there were a hole location that suggested playing the hole in three shots would lead to a lower long-term average score than you should do something different on the tee when the hole is there. I don't think this green necessarily has that although there may be places around the green that are dead that I'm not aware of.

The fact that I had a very real chance to reach the green in two this spring from the max yardage tee means I have to decide on the tee what to do...previously I would aim at the first cut of rough on the left and hope to cut it a hair but if I pulled it, so what, I'm laying up anyway so a gauge out of the rough or a mid-long iron out of the fairway is not going to determine my success on the hole, the next shot would.

Now that I know I can reach the hole and that the best angle, even with a three-wood, is the right side I have a much tougher decision with more risk on the tee. If the fairway were measurably wider and the green made a stronger suggestion to approach from the right side with a wedge the hole would be really awesome. As it is, I think it is very good.

[Tom Yost]

Here is the same album as above, but better for those with smaller monitors:

http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/MEast_combo_1100/

This (Walker Cup and the threads that accompany) will be my first study of Merion in my short time on GCAtlas.  Joe - these photos give a tremendous and detailed look at the course!  Thanks for sharing.

Is the course setup show in the photo album prepped for a tournament or is this represent pretty much the daily member setup (fairway width and rough height...) ?

On a side note, I've been looking for a web photo gallery builder s/w and really liked the one Joe is using (Galerie).  I went to check it out and find it is for Mac only   

[Adam Clayman]

Sully. We finally have something close in common. I almost hit two windshields in my one try.

[Joe Bausch]

Tom, the conditions you saw in those photos, a combo from about 5 different days over the last year or so, are typical.  I think they might let the rough grow a bit higher for a big tourney like the Walker Cup, which is what I noticed at the course today.

Gosh, in the morning alternate shot matches the crowds were much lighter than the afternoon and watching the golf while studying the course was very enjoyable.

One surprise, for me, was how the 3rd hole was set up for the afternoon round:  they moved the tee to the back box on No 6, which with a back right pin made the hole play about 275 yards.

[Ronald Montesano]

1.. Are Tom Paul and Paul Thomas dopplegangers?

2.  Does the compactness of Merion and the availability of space at Sand Hills explain anything?  I stood next to 17 green today and had Drew Weaver and Chris Paisley hit dead on over my head from 18 tee.  I think they have room at the top of the hill back there to make it a 530 yard par four, in time for the Open.

3.  The greens are absolutely shocking in their pace and in their consternation.  I watched five successive GBI players hit balls all over that putting surface, three of them putting down off the top tier to the front of the green.  And ten is a relatively flat surface at first glance.

4.  Stiggy Hodgson and Rickie Fowler are the two names to come out of this Walker Cup.

[Michael Blake]

Regarding #2:

I was a marshal yesterday during singles and worked the #2 green and a bunch of the players reached the green in two.  Most of them were hitting a utility club.  One landed a foot from the middle left hole location and rolled to the back and another was hole high, 10 feet away (missed the putt)  Others who missed short and right, or even short-sided left were getting up and down for birdie.   These kids are good.

I'm pretty sure that the tee was moved up a little bit for these guys in the afternoon and there was a very slight downwind as well.

Look forward to another lunch w/ GCA'ers at St Georges again before my afternoon shift.

[TEPaul]

"Now I am going to make a statement that might get me shot down but I feel a player on their "A" game (especially if they are driving well) can rip Pine Valley apart but I don't feel that is still quite possible at Merion due to the angles of the fairways.  I still feel you are going have to "work" the ball during tournament play especially if the main man gets the fairways running firm and fast.

I would love to hear what Tom Paul has to say about my opinions."


Brian:

I think you're right about what you said about an "A" player on his game and what the different outcomes would generally be on Merion East and Pine Valley.

I also think for any "A" player the general outcomes would be considerably different on both courses if the set-up was firm and fast throughout compared to the way Merion East played this week at the Walker Cup (had it not rained as it did on Friday). To me that completely drenching rain on Friday pretty much totally took out perhaps one of the best IMM's I have ever heard of. I'm just so sorry the players and spectators did not see that course the way it was playing in the week leading up to the matches before that Friday rain.

As for the inherent differences between PV and Merion East, for starters one has to appreciate that PV may have over 50% more fairway acreage than Merion East has and PV is one of the few great courses in the world that basically has no rough (grass rough) and it never has had (with the exception of some rough swaths about 3-5 steps wide that have only been there in recent years basically for the turning of mowers).

The other notable difference with Merion East in a little less than the last decade is the incredibly penal nature of some of the grass surrounds on a number of its bunkers. It is probably just about as easy to actually lose your ball in some of those surrounds as not. And even in a good number of cases if you do find it an unplayable generally may be the better option to trying to play it.

[Patrick Kiser]

I was reading a Max Behr passage from this very forum and couldn't help but notice the following:

Quote:

"We have only to consider the fashions in bunkers that we have already passed through. Today we think we have accomplished something when we have spotted funny little plots of grass in their midst, or run ribbons of sand up their faces. All such pretentious and affected elaboration is attractive to the uncultivated eye. This craftsmanship comes to be credited with artistic significance. But the revelation that lies in the mists ahead is form that reveals true beauty. This we will achieve only when the features we must create are considered, not solely as ends in themselves, but as means of expressing authentic landscape form. It is structural integrity that we are seeking."

I noticed these little puffy grass plots in the bunkers from Joe's pics (great pics Joe!) and was wondering if it was just Merion restoring the original look and feel or something else?

Not in favor to be honest.  Looks like a Flock Of Seagulls nightmare gone bad...

[BCrosby]

The thing about Merion is - however good it is (and it is very, very good) - how much better would it be it there weren't an active city street that cut through the heart of it?

Doesn't it seem odd to rate it as a 10 (or nearly a 10) if there might be a better course there without Ardmore Avenue?  Would it be an 11 without Ardmore? (Think - Spinal Tap.)

To put this differently, there are a number of holes (1, 10, 11, 12 and 13) that underwent major changes when people figured out that they couldn't play across Ardmore. People must have thought the originals of those holes were better than the current holes - or they would have designed the current layout back in the day. Right? So is there a better course at Merion if Ardmore were suddenly plowed under?

Or did dealing with Ardmore Avenue actually make Merion a better course?

It's a question I've wondered about for years. I still don't know how I to answer it.

Bob   

[TEPaul]

"Or did dealing with Ardmore Avenue actually make Merion a better course?

It's a question I've wondered about for years. I still don't know how I to answer it."


Bob:

It's a very good question but there are some other factors that need to be considered when some of those original holes crossing Ardmore Ave are compared to their counterparts today. One of the biggest considerations of course is the later purchase of additional land where the second half of #11 and the first half of #12 are today. Although none of us saw the original #10-#13, I would have to think taken all together what is there now is as good or better than what once was there with those 3-4 road crossing holes. But it might be interesting to go through them anyway in some attempt to compare them.

It's hard for me to even begin to compare #10 but I have to think #11 is much better today than it was originally, and I've frankly never gotten the original #12 since it seems to me one would have to come very near Ardmore Ave on the tee shot to see anything at all for the next shot (that land rises fairly steeply up to Ardmore Ave). Plus given where #11 green and #12 tee were originally I think #12 would be a pretty odd tee shot today given increased tee shot distance (today a long player could probably drive it over Ardmore Ave and of course with traffic that would be ridiculously dangerous). As for #13, it was a semi-island green but it was pretty big.

[JNC Lyon]

The thing about Merion is - however good it is (and it is very, very good) - how much better would it be it there weren't an active city street that cut through the heart of it?

Doesn't it seem odd to rate it as a 10 (or nearly a 10) if there might be a better course there without Ardmore Avenue?  Would it be an 11 without Ardmore? (Think - Spinal Tap.)

To put this differently, there are a number of holes (1, 10, 11, 12 and 13) that underwent major changes when people figured out that they couldn't play across Ardmore. People must have thought the originals of those holes were better than the current holes - or they would have designed the current layout back in the day. Right? So is there a better course at Merion if Ardmore were suddenly plowed under?

Or did dealing with Ardmore Avenue actually make Merion a better course?

It's a question I've wondered about for years. I still don't know how I to answer it.

Bob   

From seeing Merion for the first time at the Walker Cup, Ardmore Avenue does not negatively affect the flow of the routing.  The walk from 1 to 2 works very well, as does the one between 12 and 13.

The question of whether or not the increasing traffic on Ardmore Avenue and the subsequent redesign made the course better or worse is more difficult to answer.  For example, the current 10th green appears as if it were literally knocked sideways by the neighboring road.  The hole is certainly shoehorned into the property.  Yet it is a fantastic short four that was great to watch in the Walker Cup.  It is also has more strategy and angles than the old Alps 10th Hole.  The new routing may have sacrificed great holes at 12 and 13 (and both are fine holes now), but it also added the iconic 11th hole.

I remember reading that Merion's routing is not about elegance or flow.  Rather, it is about getting the most out of a small and irregular property.  I think the Wilson/Flynn/Macdonald coalition succeeded in snuggling 18 excellent holes into the property.  The unique property, Ardmore Avenue and all, is just one aspect of Merion's greatness.

[TEPaul]

Bob:

I sure don't want to get into some discussion about what Macdonald's part was in advising or recommending any of the holes at Merion East because we just don't know what it was or wasn't and consequently there is no good reason to just speculate on it but I am reminded that Macdonald certainly did seem to be partial to the use of existing roads in a pretty good number of the courses he did where they were available----eg NGLA, Piping Rock, The Links, The Creek, Mid Ocean etc.

In his 1950 US Open article Richard Francis actually mentioned how they did originally actively plan on using roads as hazards but that it was probably not a very good futuristic thing to do because of expected increased traffic.

[Adam Clayman]

JNC, I was enamored with the flow. Even the walk to the 14th, which on another course might seem interuptus, sets a tone unique to this golf course. It wets one's appetite for the great finish one is about to embark upon.

Bob, In your post you seem to preclude it as a ten because of outside factors. I don't want to stir the Huckaby/Mucci debate, but... if one is evaluating the golf course, they are not factors. Heck, You could have the Pacific ocean across Ardmore Ave. and it wouldn't change a note. Would it?

[Mike Sweeney]

To put this differently, there are a number of holes (1, 10, 11, 12 and 13) that underwent major changes when people figured out that they couldn't play across Ardmore. People must have thought the originals of those holes were better than the current holes - or they would have designed the current layout back in the day. Right? So is there a better course at Merion if Ardmore were suddenly plowed under?

Or did dealing with Ardmore Avenue actually make Merion a better course?

It's a question I've wondered about for years. I still don't know how I to answer it.

Bob   

One man's speculation:

1. Today is a better hole - see the old ladies eating turtle soup.

10. Weaker hole - would make the course a better if it was a longer hole.

11. Assume it was always a second shot hole, so no real difference.

12. Weaker, too many short 4's at this point.

13. Today is a better hole.

Thus, net net no real difference. Please be clear, it is my speculation.

[JSlonis]

The first time I played Merion I also played Sand Hills, Pine Valley, Aronomink and walked Hidden Creek.  Merion ate me up and I thought it was too tough and came away deflated....and stunned by how the rough was IMHO ruining the strategy of the course...rough being on the inside of many of the "fairway" bunkers.

I then came back and played it together with one of my good friends off this board and really, really started to love it.  I think the rough had been taken out a little and I really appreciated the angles of the fairways off the tee.  I also played Pine Valley again in the same week but would put Merion higher on my list due to the strategy of the holes compared to Pine Valley.

Now I am going to make a statement that might get me shot down but I feel a player on their "A" game (especially if they are driving well) can rip Pine Valley apart but I don't feel that is still quite possible at Merion due to the angles of the fairways.  I still feel you are going have to "work" the ball during tournament play especially if the main man gets the fairways running firm and fast.

I would love to hear what Tom Paul has to say about my opinions.  

Outside of the Molinari final round in the 2005 US Am, I haven't seen anyone really rip either course apart.  I will say that to really appreciate the greatness of both courses, you need to play them when they are firm and fast.  It makes a huge difference and in my opinion, even more so at Pine Valley.

I can't say I'd agree with your strategy comment.  While I love both courses, in regard to comparing strategy between PV and Merion, I think there are more strategic options at Pine Valley than there are at Merion.  With the narrow fairways at Merion and the very penal rough, the options are somewhat limited...Get the ball in the fairway or else is the primary strategy.  I'm not saying there aren't any strategic options, I'm just saying with the current setup of the course, most of the options a player faces are a question of what club can I get in the fairway as opposed to what hazards do I want to challenge, what area of the fairway gives the best line for an approach or how aggressive a line for a tee shot can I take?

I think overall from tee to green and from hole to hole, the golfer faces more strategic choices or options at Pine Valley.  I don't mean for this to be a knock on Merion, it's an awesome place.  Probably the most difficult course for it's yardage that I've ever played.  It's just a different test than Pine Valley and one that is hard to compare.


PS.  One thing I will say after seeing the setup of Merion for the Walker Cup is that if there is an option to be had or a way to make the golfer think, Mike Davis of the USGA will find it.  He does a great job of moving tees around and altering the day to day setup of tournaments.

[Jeff Taylor]

Having played Pacific Dunes over the wekend, it is unfair to compare anything to Merion. Given the choice, I would play Pacific Dunes. However, I will never forget my time at Merion. Why must we choose? Can't we love both experiences and wait for the next chance to try it agian?
Hate to rain on the parade but having seen part of Old Mac, I think our world is changing. These conversations will mean much less once Old Mac is open. 

[DMoriarty]

The thing about Merion is - however good it is (and it is very, very good) - how much better would it be it there weren't an active city street that cut through the heart of it?

Doesn't it seem odd to rate it as a 10 (or nearly a 10) if there might be a better course there without Ardmore Avenue?  Would it be an 11 without Ardmore? (Think - Spinal Tap.)

To put this differently, there are a number of holes (1, 10, 11, 12 and 13) that underwent major changes when people figured out that they couldn't play across Ardmore. People must have thought the originals of those holes were better than the current holes - or they would have designed the current layout back in the day. Right? So is there a better course at Merion if Ardmore were suddenly plowed under?

Or did dealing with Ardmore Avenue actually make Merion a better course?

It's a question I've wondered about for years. I still don't know how I to answer it.

Bob

A very good question.  In reviews of the course before the changes the 10th and 13th are often mentioned as stand-out holes.  I think it was Tillinghast who wrote that some of the members complained about 12th, but he thought it was a very good hole.    As for the old 11th, it was mentioned less.   The 13th green was large but reportedly it was also quite undulating, in the Macdonald short hole mold.  To me it sounds like it was a tremendous hole with the green fitting perfectly into the beautiful and natural setting.

As for the new No. 11, Richard Francis (who was involved in the original creation of the course) was one who did not like the new hole.

[Chip Gaskins]

So Richard Francis and I are the only two on the planet that don't like 11. Hmm

[DMoriarty]

There must be others, but who would admit it around here?

[Sean_A]

JNC, I was enamored with the flow. Even the walk to the 14th, which on another course might seem interuptus, sets a tone unique to this golf course. It wets one's appetite for the great finish one is about to embark upon.

Bob, In your post you seem to preclude it as a ten because of outside factors. I don't want to stir the Huckaby/Mucci debate, but... if one is evaluating the golf course, they are not factors. Heck, You could have the Pacific ocean across Ardmore Ave. and it wouldn't change a note. Would it?

Adam

Just because we are talking about Merion it doesn't mean we should gloss over stuff that other courses take a hit for.  I can take the walk-over for #3, but the trek to #14 isn't special in any way.  It is a flow issue even if a minor one, but still, for its day, quite an unusual.  I don't know if the road causes this problem, but I can't say the road enhances #14 either.  After leaving Merion I wondered if the right fairway bunkering was an attempt to beautify hole.  Sure, the bunkers come into play, but in a penal way with the road left and oob, which seems slightly out of place at Merion.  

Ciao

[TEPaul]

Chip Gaskins:

What is it about #11 you don't like?

Jamie:

That's an awesome post, and I'll have more to say about it later. I think you pretty much nailed what the true and practical "strategy" or strategic options are at Merion East and as you said they are a whole lot more club selection and distance related in nature (particularly off the tee) than they are direction oriented!! Is that a bad thing architecturally? Probably so in the minds of some on here but not in my mind and apparently not in yours!

And further, the fact that Merion East is pretty different from PV that way just makes the combination in this area of those two courses and their differences that way all the better. I would not like PV and Merion East to be more similar----eg I like the fact that they are more different from one another than similar to one another. They represent the pinacle of architectural excellence around here and the fact the spectrum of type between them is wide rather narrow is what is additionally cool in my mind.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Here's the link to the article:

http://www.golfweek.com/news/2009/sep/08/raters-notebook-merion-gc-east/

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