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Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sky caddies/Lasers/GPS....are a nuisance to architecture
« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2009, 03:18:22 AM »
You are right, I rarely use caddies.  I am a social player and thus don't need the expertise and I certainly don't want to pay for it.  I recall my caddie at Merion asking me how I knew the yardages because I didn't ask him and it was my first go.  My reply was simple - I didn't know the yardages - it was guess work.  Too many people treat golf like some sort of battle and are looking for ways to get leg up rather than going to the range, walking the course, visiting the putting and earning that advantage - or heaven forbid just admit that they are a social golfer and not able to compete properly.  Its a great pity, but that is the way of the world these days.

Ciao

Sean - Again, I love you, but this is more hogwash!!! Every golfer wants to have some idea of the challenge presented to him. On a new course (one you have never played) the excitement of learning what is over the next hill is a wonderful adventure. But, a short lasting one. At some point a player learns the subtle (and not so subtle) challenges of a given course, at which point golf becomes almost exclusively about achieving a comparative level of success. I can see where playing "in the dark" (as you propose that you do) would present a type of personal satisfaction, but at the end of the day the object is to get the ball from Point A to Point B in fewer strokes than your opponent. Golf is not about judging whether you can "guess-timate" the distance of a given shot better than I can. It is about executing the shot at hand to the best of your ability with whatever information is available to you at the time. You want the available information to be limited to what the golfer can see with his eyes. Fair enough. But, this form of golf has not been played since a caddie first gave advice to his player back in the days of yore. Once that boundary was crossed it opened the door to everything else that has followed. If caddies (and their electronic cousins) did not enhance the golfing experience for most players they would have faded away long ago. I do not have a problem with a player trying to gather as much information as possible to help him with his decision making process (as long as it is done in a timely fashion) because I'm convinced golf is not just about leap frogging from one place to the next. It is about making decisions based on your personal experience and talent, and no caddie, GPS or laser device can improve either.

I would make the argument that GPS devices could help bring back design features that have gone out of vogue, like blind shots. Blind shots would not be as offensive to so many golfers if they could "see" over the hill with a GPS device. What about firm & fast courses? As you well know, playing a F&F course completely transcends distance-only decision making. I would also argue that as a player becomes more familiar with a course he requires less and less input from an outside source.

Playing the "pure" form of golf you do is fun. It is the way I played when I first took up the game. But, you know what? On the course that I played regularly I knew how far a shot was from a given tree, rock or fencepost. It took a lot of trial and error, but I figured it out eventually. But knowing these distances did not detract from my golfing experience or cause me to become bored with the course. Just the opposite, it allowed me to focus on the other parts of the challenge at hand... which I did not always do when I was so focused on determining the distance.

I'm signing off now as I am leaving for jolly ole London in the morning and I must pack.

Stay pure, Sean... it's what we love about you!!!

Cheers!


Whitty

What percentage of non-pro rounds are played with a caddie?  Caddies in essence are a special treat for those on holidays or the well off.  For the vast majority of golfers caddies have no effect on the game.  So yes, it did make quite a difference when yardage aids became available and I believe that yardage guns continue to make that extra bit of difference which helps give an advantage to those who have them thus placing those without them at a disadvantage - all other things being equal.  

You may be right about blind shots coming back in vogue if folks have guns, but if they are no different or better than yardage markers - which have been around forever and some might say became more popular as blind shots became less popular - why would guns suddenly create an interest in blind shots?

Becoming more familiar is one of my arguments for no yardage markers.  Essentially, and this may harken back to B Crosby's idea of equitable golf, for some reason there is the common belief that the guy who knows a track well shouldn't be allowed that advantage and thus others are supplied with the info which can take years to learn.  I have never quite understood this logic, but it certainly is prevalent.  

Finally, I am far from pure.  I have relatively modern equipment and when my clubs die, just I have done in the past, I will update with more modern equipment - just as I would when replacing a car.  I do look at yardages, though I do make an effort not to.  I won't ever buy a yardage gun or a course planner and I will continue not to use caddies when they can be avoided and it fits with the crowd I am playing with.  

I know I am hopelessly backward with my opinions, but not all new ideas are progress.

I shan't see you on this trip to Sunny England so enjoy and keep yer head down.

Ciao
« Last Edit: September 12, 2009, 03:20:35 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sky caddies/Lasers/GPS....are a nuisance to architecture
« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2009, 07:20:06 AM »
OK - Let's be real..

A good human caddy costs at least $60 after tip.  My Sky Caddy costs me about $1 (I've had it for 3-4 years now).

Which do you think I'll use?  :)

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sky caddies/Lasers/GPS....are a nuisance to architecture
« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2009, 08:18:06 AM »
Quote:  I shan't see you on this trip to Sunny England so enjoy and keep yer head down.

I wish you were coming to the Buda, Sean. It's our loss. Take care!!!

Whitty
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sky caddies/Lasers/GPS....are a nuisance to architecture
« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2009, 08:25:03 AM »

Do you want the golfers to enjoy their round of golf?


But yes, you can make a rule at the course that the devices aren't allowed to be used or that Skycaddie not chart your course.

Does the developer or owner of the course feel the same way that you do?

"... and I liked the guy ..."

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sky caddies/Lasers/GPS....are a nuisance to architecture
« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2009, 08:36:01 AM »

Do you want the golfers to enjoy their round of golf?


But yes, you can make a rule at the course that the devices aren't allowed to be used or that Skycaddie not chart your course.

Does the developer or owner of the course feel the same way that you do?


Yes I want golfers to enjoy their rounds but not to use sky caddies, I am okay with planners and 100-150 yard markers central in the fairway. Yes the owner feels the same but it may not be a popular call.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sky caddies/Lasers/GPS....are a nuisance to architecture
« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2009, 06:16:11 PM »
BTW - I completely support the notion that any club should have the right to ban GPS/Laser rangefinders.


Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sky caddies/Lasers/GPS....are a nuisance to architecture
« Reply #31 on: September 14, 2009, 01:02:28 PM »
Adrian, as a designer you bring up a good point.  Obviously, you're frustrated by these cheatin' gizmos and wonder how long it takes before a designer gets fed up with adding interest and deception into the design if the numbers are what golfers are focused on.

  I was in the field last year with a shaper and he was dropping a fairway down in an area so that, as he explained, when the golfer got into that swale they would only see a rise of turf and then the green - no middleground visual.  It was quite interesting but we talked about exact yardages and he said that we just have to keep on trying. Even if it's just getting in their heads subconsciously, we can't dumb things down because the course will always be there, with or without the gizmos.    

   Keep up the good fight.  We're in your corner.   Onward Rocinante' !!!
« Last Edit: September 14, 2009, 01:04:46 PM by Slag Bandoon »
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sky caddies/Lasers/GPS....are a nuisance to architecture
« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2009, 01:11:22 PM »
Slag,
But wouldn't a good caddy have a number from that swale?  I still don't see the difference.

Or - should we change rule 6-4 to turn a caddy into a bag-carrier only?

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sky caddies/Lasers/GPS....are a nuisance to architecture
« Reply #33 on: September 14, 2009, 02:01:39 PM »
 Dan, I've only hired a caddy twice in my life.  So, not having one doesn't stop me from playing golf.  My post was intended to point out what shapers and designers have to consider when making a course artistic and a test for mental accuity in the blitz of number importance; be it in scoring or yardage.   If this infatuation with numbers becomes/maintains the motivation for golf then golf course design will suffer and devo back, I fear, to the fifties era of manufactured soullessness.
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

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